How to "clean" or "prepare" metal

admin

Since Im new I guess its fair for me to ask a simple question that keeps jumping out with different answers.  Ive heard so many versions its sick, and figured there's gotta be a difinitive for the forum library.What is the proper way to prepare/clean steel, aluminum, and SS prior to welding?ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:Clean rags..1 Stainless steel "toothbrush" for each type of metal..Acetone..Wipe..Brush..Wipe..Brush..Untill its clean...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:what zap said but if its got mill scale on it grind or sand first then do what zap saidChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:why would you clean it?? For nice projects or something, ive just clean it up aftrer im done then paint or do whatevere with it??
Reply:Originally Posted by lodogg89why would you clean it?? For nice projects or something, ive just clean it up aftrer im done then paint or do whatevere with it??
Reply:That it?  Grinding, rags, & acetone?Any particular type of brushes or just the usual wire 2-3" brushes?Theres gotta be a little trick or two to such a simple process...ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:That's it my friend now go out and conquer the world!!!_________________Chris
Reply:He did say "stainless brushes", and yes there is a difference. No cross contamination, keep the aluminum brush only for that, and so on...have fun!If you don't have the time to do it right, then you definitely don't have the time to do it over.
Reply:I wouldn't grind aluminum with a steel wheel.  The abrasive in wheels for steel is aluminum oxide, just what you don't want in your aluminum.Yeah, for the best weld on carbon steel, grind off the mill scale.  The arc will be more inclined to go TO the base metal.For stainless, one of those flap wheels work best for me.It all depends on the project.A mig with C 25 or 6010 stick will weld over the most sin, but its just that, a sin.I have had guys tell me to weld right over the paint.  I tell em I am not that good of a welder.  The truth is I will end up with a crappy weld.Rust, grease, OLD welds all have to go before doing the job right.A carbon arc gouge or Arc Air works best for me removing old cracked, interrupted or just trashy welds and leaves a pretty good surface for a good weld.  All I do is chip any slag that is left.  Some times I trim with a grinder.David
Reply:Aluminum cleaning/grinding/sanding/metal prep stuff on it's own.Stainless cleaning/grinding/sanding/metal prep stuff on it's own.And yet another set for mild steel.  I would personally keep two additional sets for mild steel,  1) for the dirty work on dirty metal (rusty stuff, repairs, fences, etc) and  2) for the nice DOM tubing work like gates, soapbox racers, etc.***************************************Lincoln AC225 stick welderLincoln HD100 WeldPak flux core wire feed welderThree of the cheapest grinders money can buy
Reply:Great information guys.  I just knew that there was more to it than rags and combustables!  Anything else?BTW: Ive been absolutely amazed at the difference in my work with and without cleaning.  Also helps with the learning curve since there seems to be a slightly different "feel".  Maybe that's just me, but since I like to do a job the correct way it makes me feel better knowing that there's one more step to the ritual.ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:do you guys clean everything you weld?? If i cleaned things i probably would enjoy welding as much, do you clean all types of metals for all types of welding? Im curious about this, tell me more, Where can i buy acetone? Does it come in big bottles?
Reply:Yes, clean mild steel, alumized mild steel, stainless steel, aluminum. You get a much better arc and a much nicer weld bead.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Originally Posted by lodogg89do you guys clean everything you weld?? If i cleaned things i probably would enjoy welding as much, do you clean all types of metals for all types of welding? Im curious about this, tell me more, Where can i buy acetone? Does it come in big bottles?
Reply:Originally Posted by lodogg89do you guys clean everything you weld?? If i cleaned things i probably would enjoy welding as much, do you clean all types of metals for all types of welding? Im curious about this, tell me more, Where can i buy acetone? Does it come in big bottles?
Reply:i will have to pick some up and try this, i will let you know how it goes.
Reply:REMEMBER: dont store the rags in a "pile" as the schtuff is EXTREMELY flamable and is known to spontaneously combust!  Let it "air out" away from your work area and open the rag up so it can off gas quickly.LASTLY:Dont try to weld your can of acetone to your project.  ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:Are we done with this yet?  ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:ofcourse were not done with this thread, i havent learend enough yet. Okay, i bought a gallon of acetone, and stainless wirebrush, i will test this out and see how it works, maybe post a before and after pic of my work, no making fun though, im new at this.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterThe real pros clean it before..During..After...You would'nt work for me very long if you did not clean clean clean your stuff prior to welding..Dirty metal = major contamination..Major contamination = major problems with me.. ...zap!
Reply:Apparently you've never worked for a construction company
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterI'm a pro...are you?  and there is many here that will agree with me..This is what seperates "us" from "them" ...zap!
Reply:I wonder... how about alcohol? Isopropyl is cheap...  Just a thought
Reply:What we need are hugs...who's gonna start?I can think of numerous excuses to do a quality job, but cant think of many to do a lousy job.  Its true that there are many jobs out there that are of the mode of "get it stuck together", but I dont consider that welding.I dont know if alcohol would strip oils like acetone does.  Anyone with other ideas as to how to clean metals for welding?ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:I dont know if alcohol would strip oils like acetone does. Anyone with other ideas as to how to clean metals for welding?I hope you have a nice steel storage place for all that stuff.. ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by lodogg89ofcourse were not done with this thread, i havent learend enough yet. Okay, i bought a gallon of acetone, and stainless wirebrush, i will test this out and see how it works, maybe post a before and after pic of my work, no making fun though, im new at this.
Reply:D*** it I just found out I am one of "them" againI came to this forum to learn a few things (old Indian tricks as a friend of mine calls them) I have never thought that I was too smart to learn something but this acetone on a weld joint is a new one I have been welding since 1983 everything from the side of a grain hopper on a combine with a torch and bailing wire (if you don't believe that one you never worked for a farmer who had 2 days to finish harvest before the rain hit) to a spoke in the bull gear on a 150 ton forge press the most important thing is cleaning the weld area but acetone? I have never met a welder who wanted anything that flammable in his shop. I am pretty new to posting I have read a lot here and learned a bunch so you all can have fun cracking jokes at me if you would like (let the games begin) isn't the best weld prep to use a grinder to clean all of the rust, slag, paint, dirt away from the weld area if you pre heat then most of the contaminates, such as oil, will burn away leaving only a slight bit of ash that is easily removed with a wire brush I have never had a problem with this method besides acetone is considered a hazardous material you have to handle it in very careful ways this means nothing to home consumers but if you have a business you better have a MSDS on it and you better also have an eye wash station handy because if the good old OSHA boys walk in you are had (they can be a lil anal about such things) http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/A0446.htm A link to an MSDS for acetone if you check chapter 5 then you will see the fire fighting techniques for acetone the line I like is the one that says "Special Information: In the event of a fire, wear full protective clothing and NIOSH-approved self-contained breathing apparatus with full facepiece operated in the pressure demand or other positive pressure mode" (I was also on the fire department for 10 years) this means that burning acetone can be pretty hazardous do I want to burn it on a daily basis and breathe some of it every time I fire up the welder? NO!! Do I wear a respirator when I weld? NO does everybody here? I seriously doubt it. Now I just know some of you are reaching for your mouse thinking I am gonna tell this %$#@%^* off. Go ahead if you want I just think there are 2 sides to the coin I AM A PROFESSIONAL IN EVERY SENCE OF THE WORD!!! To say that I am not because I don’t wash my welds down with acetone before I put the power to it is just saying if yall ain’t like us youn isn’t worth a salt fer nuthin (put a lil hick redneck drawl into it. It is much funnier that way)I must admit I have never ventured into aluminum welding and maybe that is where the more advanced cleaners like acetone should come in. I have not been sued and to the best of my knowledge no one has ever been hurt because a weld of mine failed. Nothing destroyed because a weld failed (saying you never had a weld fail is crazy by the way) some people can tear up a crow bar in a sand box. One poster here has a signature that says if it ain’t broke you ain’t trying hard enough. That is my favorite line here.Well now I am done you guys have fun tearing me to ribbons if ya want but on exit think about how many of you took College welding courses and how many of them taught you to use chemical solvents before welding
Reply:Nothing to argue with in kiskaw's post, regarding safety. But it goes for most chemicals used for cleaning. The better the cleaner, the more hazards there are. Less flamable ones are greater health hazards otherwise, IF not treated with proper care. I tend to use brake cleaner for a lot of spot degreasing, and cable cleaner for lighter cleaning. Mostly because they come in squirt cans to get to places where rags won't reach and aquious cleaners won't dry.My tendancy is to NOT use the solvents unless there is a good reason, in part due to cost, in part due to safety. If a grind will do, that's all I do. If there is an indication more is needed, then I do more. (Exception: things like air brake and steam line piping. These You can't go back and clean it later if is isn't clean enough to start. These get whatever it takes to be SURE at the start. I don't do sanitary work, so I can't venture an opinion there)
Reply:My only comment about Isopropyl is that it has either 30% or 10% water mixed into it.
Reply:My cleaning area is seperate from my grinding and welding area. The acetone also evaporates seconds after it is applied. Yes - do NOT leave rags soaked in it near the welding/grinding area. Do NOT leave the open container is that area either. I also use the blue paper shop towels for cleaning with acetone. It seems to evaporate quicker and not hold the acetone. Perhaps a test will follow to see if my blue paper shop rags burn quicker without the acetone or with the acetone evaportated.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterMaybe not but I fix stuff that cant be repaired in the field.. Dont be too quick to judge others capabilities too fast..my friend..for now..Even if it was -20 and with a wind in my face at 50 mph.. clean has to and will happen..No matter what you state..I'm a pro...are you?  and there is many here that will agree with me..This is what seperates "us" from "them" ...zap!
Reply:OK..Cool Whatever  Just remember 1 thing here..90% of the members here will never even come close to doing that..We (I) Deal with the general public here..So your not general public...whoopie crap..I am And so are they ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterOK..Cool Whatever  Just remember 1 thing here..90% of the members here will never even come close to doing that..We (I) Deal with the general public here..So your not general public...whoopie crap..I am And so are they ...zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by turbo38tThat goes for 90% of repairs. Anything that is not xrayed you don't need to be as ANAL as you are. I guess that's the difference between a guy that make money(me) and a guy that makes less money(you). Dave
Reply:there ya go again Zap (or zappy i guess), makin friends with the newest cool kid here.how come they always find YOU?38t welcome to the forum, now settle down and either join a conversation without trying to look important. or bugger off, we dont need you
Reply:there ya go again Zap (or zappy i guess), makin friends with the newest cool kid here.how come they always find YOU?
Reply:Originally Posted by LuzRDthere ya go again Zap (or zappy i guess), makin friends with the newest cool kid here.how come they always find YOU?38t welcome to the forum, now settle down and either join a conversation without trying to look important. or bugger off, we dont need you
Reply:wow zap what did you do this time? some times you cant win can you lolfor tig welding it's got to be really really cleanfor mig.stick and flux core grinder clean will workbut you still need to weld on clean metal no rust no dirt no grease no paintno oil if you want a good weld if you don't want a good weld then weld over all that crapChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:Dave - Zap tries to stress the important points here because, you will find if you've been on here long enough, that most new welders come on this forum asking why their welds are not good. A large percentage of the time it boils down to them making the simple mistake of NOT cleaning and they still expect a good weld. Yes, we understand when you have an emergency repair and have a multi-million dollar operation down, you can't clean the entire bucket with acetone...that's a given but they make proper rods to deal with that. Other than that, if you have the time, clean is mean!John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Originally Posted by turbo38tSorry, thought this was a WELDING DISCUSSION FORUM. Guess I was wrong. I've been doin this a long time. I know when something needs to be SUPER clean. I know when to use acetone, a stainless brush etc. I also know that people shouldn't use brake clean such as the red can from CRC for welding purposes. It displaces air and willl choke you if it starts burning the fumes while welding.I know when to clean for mig welding, I know it's NOT neccessary to clean every last bit of millscale off, but then you have the anal ones that think it is 100% neccessary EVERY time. Probably a former or current pipewelder....IMHO. Dave
Reply:Originally Posted by turbo38tSorry, thought this was a WELDING DISCUSSION FORUM. Guess I was wrong. I've been doin this a long time. I know when something needs to be SUPER clean. I know when to use acetone, a stainless brush etc. I also know that people shouldn't use brake clean such as the red can from CRC for welding purposes. It displaces air and willl choke you if it starts burning the fumes while welding.I know when to clean for mig welding, I know it's NOT neccessary to clean every last bit of millscale off, but then you have the anal ones that think it is 100% neccessary EVERY time. Probably a former or current pipewelder....IMHO. Dave
Reply:Originally Posted by kiskawI have never met a welder who wanted anything that flammable in his shop.
Reply:In brazing cleanliness is essential.   I’m not sure how much of this applies here but it seems to relate somewhat.   Acetone and other solvents do a good job on oils and greases depending on what kind they are.  However they are solvents which means they dissolve the oils and greases which means they leave a small residue when you wipe them off.  We use a caustic based cleaner because it turns oils and greases into soaps which rinse off well.    Easy off in a can for small jobs.  BBQ grill cleaner from the janitorial supply house for big jobs. I have gone into operations where they were having braze failure after cleaning with acetone, alcohol and similar.  We then used Easy off and we eliminated the braze failure.  The easiest way to test is to sue an eye dropper. Put a couple drops of water on the surface and see what shape the puddle is.  A high, small puddle means the surface is dirty.  A low, wide puddle means the surface is clean.   Some of you may be familiar with this as a form of “water break test” from military and aerospace requirements.        We have more info at   http://www.cs4u.org/newsletter_home.htmA couple of the newsletters have some form of clean in the titles.  As to how necessary this is, I don’t know.   Depends on who and how and what and what they want to achieve.  tom
Reply:HMB thats some great info, i never knew easyoff or BBQ cleaner could be so handy in the shop. regardless of how necessary it is in general thats some good info to have for future reference anyway!thank you
Reply:In our May 2006 newsletter we tested various cleaners including CRC Brakleen.  “Brakleen is far and away the most expensive. It is the worst cleaner, it causes cancer and it can explode.This is a great product for getting in very tight spaces and dissolving greases and other packed crud. However this is not what we are doing with saw cleaning. We want to dissolve a thin layer of light materials on a flat surface.”
Reply:hardmetalbrazer,your caustic cleaning method really makes sense.  We had a caustic parts washer in the auto parts factory, never thought of how a person might copy the process for a small shop, Easy Off, that's great.Thanks for the tip.
Reply:Originally Posted by slamdvwI wonder... how about alcohol? Isopropyl is cheap...  Just a thought
Reply:Originally Posted by turbo38tSo Zappy.....you have a PC400 bucket, it needs a complete rebuild.....you are the type of welder that likes to do things 100%(me).....the boss comes in and you tell him it needs a rebuild, new corners, sides, floor, edge, adaptors etc. He says, "weld some rebar on the corners, put a floot in it, weld the wear bars on(over a smashed in floor) and build up the adaptors. What are you going to do? I am going to cut everything off in one shot that I can, wash it off with the #3 gouger and "touch it" with the grinder to get the big stuff off and get it back out to that 60 million dollar job that it's holding up, what are you going to do? I can tell you as a matter of FACT that grinding everything down to clean fresh steel on an excavator bucket is POINTLESS. A REAL welder knows how much to do to do a STRONG job for the application. Dave
Reply:Interesting stuff while I'm away.. But I'm back from sleddin'..Oh yeah the pics..Off to the proper forum..B.T.Y. Keep this one going.. ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.