1/4" HR Square Solid?

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I'm having a difficult time using a Shop Outfitters 20/20 bending machine using the basket attachment to create basket finials. The manual says to use 1/4 CR square solid, which I can get all day long at my local supplier. After calling Shop Outfitters and telling him my problem, he suggested using HR square solid instead. I can not find HR 1/4" square anywhere. Is this available or do they not hot roll square this small??KevMiller 210 and 140 MigsBernard Q-Torches on bothMiller Syncrowave 200Spoolmate 3035 for sale, excellent condtion- PM for detailsThermal Dynamics 38XLShop OutFitters 20/20 Bending SystemLots of other cheap and not so cheap tools Still have LOTS to learn, but got some nice stuff to learn on!
Reply:Why do you want to use hot rolled over cold?? Gotta grind the crust off before you can do anything with it welding wise.. Stick with CRS..It bends easier and everything.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Zap, I know, and I thought the same thing. I'm a bit confused as to why he is suggesting the use of HR since I'm bending baskets to begin with... The only thing I can think of is that I've been told that CR sometimes yields unpredictable results when twisting. Anyone know this to be the case?Miller 210 and 140 MigsBernard Q-Torches on bothMiller Syncrowave 200Spoolmate 3035 for sale, excellent condtion- PM for detailsThermal Dynamics 38XLShop OutFitters 20/20 Bending SystemLots of other cheap and not so cheap tools Still have LOTS to learn, but got some nice stuff to learn on!
Reply:Originally Posted by DkevdogZap, I know, and I thought the same thing. I'm a bit confused as to why he is suggesting the use of HR since I'm bending baskets to begin with... The only thing I can think of is that I've been told that CR sometimes yields unpredictable results when twisting. Anyone know this to be the case?
Reply:Cold rolled steel doesn't bend well at all.  It is work hardened material.  If you take a piece of 1/4 cold rolled flat bar and even bend it with a one inch inside radius, it will more than likely crack or even break.  Hot rolled on the other hand you can bend  with a 1/4 inside radius without problem.   If you do want to bend cold rolled, just heat in the bend area to just barely red hot, then you can bend it even after it cools off.  The heat takes out the work hardened condition.  Been there, done that.
Reply:About the 1/4 square hot rolled.  It is hard to find and for some reason is very expensive in relation to it's weight.  The last stuff I bought was about three or four years ago in Texas and I went in with another guy who ordered some in bulk.  Don't remember where though.
Reply:If what Riley says is true, (and I agree) you might want to track down a forge, anneal that CR with a heat soak to get rid of the work-hardening, then see if it doesn't bend to shape.  Might be less expensive than tracking down new HR.WeldingWeb forum--now more sophomoric banter than anything else!
Reply:Since I already bought 10 sticks of 1/4" CR, I'll give the heat method a try. I'm not having any trouble with breakage, its just that the baskets are untwisting in an uneven pattern. Thanks for the tips.KevMiller 210 and 140 MigsBernard Q-Torches on bothMiller Syncrowave 200Spoolmate 3035 for sale, excellent condtion- PM for detailsThermal Dynamics 38XLShop OutFitters 20/20 Bending SystemLots of other cheap and not so cheap tools Still have LOTS to learn, but got some nice stuff to learn on!
Reply:Originally Posted by riley mcmillanCold rolled steel doesn't bend well at all.  It is work hardened material.  If you take a piece of 1/4 cold rolled flat bar and even bend it with a one inch inside radius, it will more than likely crack or even break.  Hot rolled on the other hand you can bend  with a 1/4 inside radius without problem.   If you do want to bend cold rolled, just heat in the bend area to just barely red hot, then you can bend it even after it cools off.  The heat takes out the work hardened condition.  Been there, done that.
Reply:I'm quite glad I read this - I make gates and things on the side and was thinking of buying the Shopfitter kit for baskets in particular.  (Most of it's other uses I have got round before). Perhaps this would be better in a new post but just wondering if anyone has used any other tool for the job or this the best way?www.abou27.com
Reply:I have bent a LOT of both hot and cold rolled in the last 25 years, and there is no doubt that hot rolled is much easier to bend, can be bent cold into sharper radiuses, and will bend more consistently.But hot rolled 1/4" square has pretty much gone the way of the dodo- there may be somebody, somewhere in the USA who is still rolling it, but I sure cant find any. I know lots of blacksmiths who have been looking for the last 5 years or so, with no luck.For very small quantities, annealing cold rolled in a forge will help. But that could quickly get to be a big pain if you were doing a few hundred feet.As for the baskets, I have found that Shop Outfitters usually makes tools only one very small step above Harbor Freight- their original bender design, for some reason known only to them, omitted most of the design features that make a hossfeld such a good bender. If you want a real basket bender, you gotta be prepared to rob a bank, then give all the money to the Germans.I have about the ultimate, although I dont do baskets on it- a Hebo CNC machine- figure a minimum of 15 grand or so. And 2- 3 months wait while they build it in Germany and send it over here.http://www.usahebo.com/Glaser, another German company, makes some basket machines too- Their GDM-2, which is under Produckte, then under Maschinen, then under Handgerate, is a manual twisting machine which can be made to make the parts for baskets, then the baskets themselves- the base twister is somewhere around a grand, then another few hundred for the special basket dies- not cheap, but not like the Hebo, as expensive as a new car.It will beat the pants off the Shop Outfitters, last longer than you will live, and still have to be shipped from Germany, although they do have a nice US rep, who might have one in stock.http://www.g-glaser.de/seiten/start.htm
Reply:Why do you want to use hot rolled over cold??
Reply:Thanks to all for your input. I surprisingly found that Home Depot actually sells ¼” HR square, but at $4.10 for a 3 foot piece, I bought just one to try it. The basket came out MUCH more uniform. So, contrary to what is printed in the Shop Outfitters instruction manual, you should NOT use CR for baskets. I have since found a local supplier who can get me ¼” HR in 20’ lengths for about $4. MUCH more reasonable  Farmboy, The Shop Outfitters system is pretty pricey, but well made. I tried the cheapo Chinese model and couldn’t get the consistency I can with the 20/20. My only caveat is that the manual isn’t written terribly well, and plan on a good weekend of playing with it to learn the setups. Once you get it down though, it works very nicely. I will try and take some pics tonight of the difference between a HR and CR basket. The difference is pretty significant.KevMiller 210 and 140 MigsBernard Q-Torches on bothMiller Syncrowave 200Spoolmate 3035 for sale, excellent condtion- PM for detailsThermal Dynamics 38XLShop OutFitters 20/20 Bending SystemLots of other cheap and not so cheap tools Still have LOTS to learn, but got some nice stuff to learn on!