the pro's and con's of working for a Union?

admin

Just wanted to get some input on working for a union.  The local union is hiring/training.  what are the pro's and con's of working for a union. once certified they start you out as $25hr. thats seem pretty good for a beginner.
Reply:My buddy Marc is in a union..Construction..Must pay dues..Go to meetings once a month..No paid holidays..No paid vacations..No sick days..No personal days..No nothing except a big fat check every 2 weeks..I could not do it.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:And it seems like every time you turn around, there's a strike going.  Myself, I'm greedy and want a paycheck.  I can't afford to take time off to strike.
Reply:Different unions everywhere.  Established ones affiliated to the AFL-CIO that have been around for 100 years and the new company driven ones that are there in name only.There definitely are some good points:  Training and upgrading by some of the best there is.Travelfare to out of town jobs and room and board when you get there.12 percent added onto every weekly paycheck to cover vacation and holiday pay.Medical, dental, prescription medication, long term disability and life insurance.Reciprical agreements where you can travel card to a different union and have your benefits sent back to your home local.Draw your pension at 55 years and continue working as a retiree.Maybe not for everyone but for a young person willing to make the commitment it is certainly worth looking into.
Reply:Alot of the work that I do ( not welding, road construction) is union or prevailing wage scale. I find that the pay based on job title leads to lots of guys looking for titles and not looking to improve the quality of their work. I think that way back in the day when people were being abused in the workplace the unions had a purpose, today an employer can not get away with that kind of thing and I think that you should be paid on merit, not title. It is unfair that the men who have paid their dues and/or who perform above expectations are paid the same as an idiot who happens to have the same job title.
Reply:I'm Pro Union but won't get into this here. I'll just say this, where else can you not only get the hands on learning but the bookwork portion also...WHILE GETTING PAID...get the Journeyman's card and then decide.BUY UNION, at the very least BUY AMERICANAnything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:Originally Posted by daddyIt is unfair that the men who have paid their dues and/or who perform above expectations are paid the same as an idiot who happens to have the same job title.
Reply:Originally Posted by olddadI'm Pro Union but won't get into this here. I'll just say this, where else can you not only get the hands on learning but the bookwork portion also...WHILE GETTING PAID...get the Journeyman's card and then decide.BUY UNION, at the very least BUY AMERICAN
Reply:I retired from the IUOE in 2002 at age 55. Worked  32 yrs mainly on rock crushers and associated heavy eqpt. I wanted to work to 62 but my body said it had had enough of rock crushing. Got a decent pension and work seasonal for a local farmer to keep busy.   I think a lot of empoyers get away w/ abuse of employees in work hours,health insurance,pension,etc. I figure someday people will wise up to this and the unions will make some comeback.                                                MikeOl' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:I retired from the IUOE in 2002 at age 55. Worked  32 yrs mainly on rock crushers and associated heavy eqpt. I wanted to work to 62 but my body said it had had enough of rock crushing. Got a decent pension and work seasonal for a local farmer to keep busy.   I think a lot of empoyers get away w/ abuse of employees in work hours,health insurance,pension,etc. I figure someday people will wise up to this and the unions will make some comeback.                                                MikeOl' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:I have 27 years at my present employer and we are IBEW here.Yes there are pros and cons but I believe you are much better off in a union.I should say good unions. There are rinky dink ones out there.Iron -pipefitter - electrical type unions that provide apprenticeships and training can't be beat for a young person wanting to better themself and their family.And don't we all want that. I ditto Ol' Stonebreaker and olddad.Last edited by stevinator; 01-10-2008 at 08:57 PM.pro-level dumpster diver                                     Hobart 125EZ
Reply:I worked Union.  I didn't like it.  It always seemed that I was the one doing the majority of the work, (I had the paperwork to prove it) yet the union would do nothing about it.  The boss certainly would not.  Then it got to the point that I started having people telling me to slow down because I was working too fast.  The sad thing is, I wasn't doing anythign beyond organizing my work.  Eventually, I went to work for myself.  I make a TON more money, and I could not be happier.
Reply:Originally Posted by Az ScooterI worked Union.  I didn't like it.  It always seemed that I was the one doing the majority of the work, (I had the paperwork to prove it) yet the union would do nothing about it.  The boss certainly would not.  Then it got to the point that I started having people telling me to slow down because I was working too fast.  The sad thing is, I wasn't doing anythign beyond organizing my work.  Eventually, I went to work for myself.  I make a TON more money, and I could not be happier.
Reply:If there were unions in my part of the country (so. CA and AZ), wages and benefits would be better for working class people, the rift between the rich who work in white collar and the blue collar folk would not be as wide, and there would be real skilled trade training accessible to those who need it most, while earning a worthwhile living.   The problem we have here is not only lack of unions, but mostly a plethora of available cheap labor from the other side of the fence (Mexico).  The other problem we have all over the country is job outsourcing.   Manufacturing is dead now days compared to years ago before China and NAFTA.   People say unions drove the companies away.  I say it was Reagan and Bush Sr, who gave away the country to China, Mexico, and every other second-rate nation in the world.  I'm sorry now that I voted for them.  Not that the other party would have done any better...MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:If it weren't for a union apprenticeship...I wouldn't be a tradesman. I went from $7 an hour and a job that I was ashamed of to $35+ an hour, with pension and benefits, and a job that I am proud of.As far as union workers being slack and lazy, I wouldn't know, my union is performance based...no seniority. If you don't cut the mustard you  get the ol, " Gee, sorry I'm gonna have to let you go...work is getting short." , and you're down the roadYou can't go wrong belonging to a trade union...you are well trained, and once you have your ticket, it can never be taken away.Last edited by Tinbasher; 01-10-2008 at 11:49 PM.
Reply:The unions are good at doing many things such as:The demise of the US auto manufacturersThe excel of Japanese and Koren auto manufacturerDrive large employers to other countries causing unemploymentForcing their sheep to vote only for a DemocratLack of quality controlThe demise of WestinghouseThe demise of US SteelPromoting laziness/slackingProviding coffee breaks...31 times a dayScrewing of the workerExtortion of money from the worker for no reason Making people believe they actually serve a purpose after 1930Price of many goods to increaseProduction to decreaseJobs for friends and family that nobody else could ever getWhat cracks me up about these guys is that when your drive by our local GM UAW building, there are 2 Lexus (Lexii?), a Mercedes and several small Jap cars always in the "reserved parking" spaces. These douchebags are stewards and other high positions for a union of an AMERICAN AUTO MANUFACTURER and drive these cars? Hipocrites! When they close the plant next year, these guys are gonna have to get a job where they have to work.Other than that, they DID do some good things. You will definitely get paid more than most non-union places.
Reply:Careful not to paint all unions with the same brush...I can assure you that there are good and bad and to further that I think you would have to be pretty naive to actually believe that unions as a whole share the responsibility for everything on that list of yours.
Reply:Originally Posted by TinbasherCareful not to paint all unions with the same brush...I can assure you that there are good and bad and to further that I think you would have to be pretty naive to actually believe that unions as a whole share the responsibility for everything on that list of yours.
Reply:Originally Posted by olddadLook's to me like the kind of attitude that spews from someone that's been fired from a Union plant. I used to hear a LOT of bitching but 9 times out of ten told them to quit whining and get back to work. The whiners usually didn't have a leg to stand on so "The Union" was worthless...LOL. Anyone that's been the least bit serious about their Union has heard that crap hundreds of times. It's really bad in "Right to Work" states !!
Reply:I would think good pay, good training and depening on where the local is alot of work. where else do you get paid to get trained and can take that training anywhere. yes you do pay union dues and they do suggest who you vote for, but my grand father has not worked a day in in the last 20 years owns two houses in the bay area, and has enough in saving to buy a new truck put it on a credit card to get the airline miles than go home and write a check to pay it off. All this after being a union plumber.
Reply:It seems to me that it's only the lazy ones or the ones that don't work well with others that complain about the unions. I myself am a member of the carpenters union and I love it. Before that, I was a general contractor, and what a head ache that was. With the union you get all the benefits that most people wish they had. I don't understand people that bad talk the unions. Maybe they should try living in China!
Reply:Unions have built America. You can thank them for the workers rights and benefits you receive today. Years ago you would go work for the railroad or who ever and have to live in their housing, buy from their stores and every week end up in debt to your employer. Some of you are right that Unions have their place. Don't kid yourself, if no one sticks up for the worker we will be right back where we were years and years ago which is why they are necessary today.And yes, some guys only do the minimum to get by. I can tell you that these guys kicked *** at one time and most likely worked themselves out of a job a time or two and had to go on the road to feed their family. These are also the guys who probably have the most knowledge. On the larger union jobs (Government) the contractor is more worried about putting absurd safety rules in place than getting the job done. I have worked non union and got paid much less and have to fight for every little nickel and dime.I now enjoy a business manager, hiring hall, discounted college courses and someone to take care of all the extra BS that I don't want to deal with so I can focus on my job.Does my union tell me who to vote for? No. They tell me which representatives are pro union. Whether republican or democrat, we vote for the guy or girl that will propel us into the future.Bill
Reply:I'd say that the best advice is to train up and get your Journey Mans card.  At that point you will have enough exposure to make a well informed decision about staying in or not.  Either way you will have had excellent training and a marketable skill.Good luck.
Reply:Originally Posted by Chris weldsI'd say that the best advice is to train up and get your Journey Mans card.  At that point you will have enough exposure to make a well informed decision about staying in or not.  Either way you will have had excellent training and a marketable skill.Good luck.
Reply:Originally Posted by Chris weldsI'd say that the best advice is to train up and get your Journey Mans card.  At that point you will have enough exposure to make a well informed decision about staying in or not.  Either way you will have had excellent training and a marketable skill.Good luck.one of the biggest pro's i found as a steelworker for twelve years was the safety aspect of the workplaceif you had a legitimate safety concern  you could address it right then & there(at least we could) without fear of any negative backlash
Reply:Originally Posted by OldSparksI know you're right.  That is probably the best advice for someone starting out.  It's just a shame that it's human nature to suck up the freebies  with intentions to turn their backs on the givers.  This training doesn't just magically appear.  It's paid for with member deductions and company contributions in the hope of maintaining  future skill levels.  It's the membership and the companies they work for that are taking the risk in training the new guy.  Hopefully he'll stick around and help contribute for the next apprentice.
Reply:I am not even gonna start on the whole list of turboblown's post and start a war.I had an uncle that worked for 40 years for a little place that paid peanuts and I would hear him go on like that every time my cousin and I were around ,we were both union.The foreign auto makers excel because good management and marketing have alot to do with running a company.Funny they do well and build their cars and trucks here with our workers in a union atmosphere.Most of your problems in this country are from ceo's and the goverment lining their pockets,not a guy laying pipe or building a skyscraper getting union wages. Sorry, I don't have that much clout.Listen to what Tinbasher and Okie Jim told you.Last edited by stevinator; 01-11-2008 at 07:14 PM.pro-level dumpster diver                                     Hobart 125EZ
Reply:I forgot, OldSparks and WHughes know it too. Okay I'll get off my soapbox now.Good Luck and go union and decide on your own.pro-level dumpster diver                                     Hobart 125EZ
Reply:and not to take it to off topic just had my apprenticship interview on tues hopping to be hearing good things coming up. Oh and this is for plumber and pipefitters local. I guess I was one of the few to sign up for the fitting side of it.
Reply:Most people that go union and want to open there own business will open a union shop. Hopefully that is your plan. You get what you pay for.You may realize that owning the business isn't what its cracked up to be.I have a retirement that I don't have to worry about. I also have an annuity that I can borrow against at low interest and it still collects returns like the entire amount is there. Almost 36 buck on the check, but the package is 57 and change. I take classes through the union hall twice a week and every other saturday. They are accredited classes and I pay 250 a quarter. I can also take classes online at 70 dollars a credit and get a degree in construction management so that when my eyes fail, I will still have work. Yes there are dues, yes I have to pay my own vacation and sick time. 5 dollars an hour goes to a vacation account. That translates to 10 weeks paid per year. No one tells me when I can take vacation.  Dues are cheap compared to the benefits.Like I said, the norm is that after you spend some time in it, you really understand the value.Bill
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterMy buddy Marc is in a union..Construction..Must pay dues..Go to meetings once a month..No paid holidays..No paid vacations..No sick days..No personal days..No nothing except a big fat check every 2 weeks..I could not do it.....zap!
Reply:Getting all the welding certifications in college classes will never hurt you when looking for a job, even if it's just a apprentice level job. The more certs you have could possibly start you higher up the ladder than a beginner, which means better wages to start with!  The "no vacation" is not always true. The company I work for gives 1week after 1yr if you have worked over 1200 hrs the first year, then 2 wks at 3yrs and 3wks at 5yrs---PAID!!! We are union.  They have done us real good at times and at others we wonder whose side they are on. But, when it comes out in the wash, without the union we would still be working for $5hr, with no benies if the company had their way. The union aren't what the used to be for strength, but try to stand up to some of these employers without them when you feel you've been treated badly and see how bad asphalt burns on your butt hurt when you get kicked out on the street cause there are 100 guys standing in line waiting to get your job that haven't been screwed around yet!
Reply:keep it coming. It seems alot of pro union guys on here.  I've never worked for a union.  so all this info is great.  plus my roomate stared in the union class today. once again thanks for your input.  I going to join up in may.
Reply:Union all the way!  Will not work if not.
Reply:The big issue is limitations on who can do what job.  I was working for a large robot company as a welding technician.  We went to a GM plant to work on some equipment that had a welding problem.  Because we were not "pipe fitters", we could not turn off the water cooling to work on the weld guns on the robots.  We waited 16 hours with (nothing to do) until a union "pipe fitter" came from another job to turn off the water.  Yes that plant was quite militant, and yes they would have taken us to court with a grievance if we had not respected the contract.   True story.  Oh, and I was making $18 an hour as a Robotics Tech with 2 BS degrees, and floor sweepers there started at $17 an hour.  The big 3 union robot techs were pulling in $45 and hour.  I suppose I would do it too if I could get away with it, but I would for sure break some rules as far as productivity goes.  I have met some union people who break the rules and do not impair productivity like the ones we met that day.
Reply:Originally Posted by obewanThe big issue is limitations on who can do what job.  I was working for a large robot company as a welding technician.  We went to a GM plant to work on some equipment that had a welding problem.  Because we were not "pipe fitters", we could not turn off the water cooling to work on the weld guns on the robots.  We waited 16 hours with (nothing to do) until a union "pipe fitter" came from another job to turn off the water.  Yes that plant was quite militant, and yes they would have taken us to court with a grievance if we had not respected the contract.   True story.
Reply:Old Sparks, To clarify:We had a small company union - just not UAW. We were working with the UAW maintenance people present.  The contract required us to help because the equipment was under warranty.  We were there mostly to help from a consulting perspective.  We got along with the UAW maintenance people, just not the pipefittres.  The robot techs were just as resentful as us about the pipefitters troublemaking.  The contract is the contract though.  Until the pipefitters jobs are merged with a robot tech job description, they have a right to seek protection of their own interests  I suppose.  When we were in a Ford plant, I saw a whole break room become completely trashed when the break buzzer went off.  It was a daily ritual.  Everyone threw their garbage on the floor - simultaneously at the sound of the horn.  I had to laugh.  They were protecting the interests of the $17 per hour janitors that came in next, or they resented the high pay given to such a low skill level job.
Reply:Been avoiding this post but figure I would throw in my 2 cents worth. As I see it life is all about the ups and down. A smart person realizes this and plans for the future which means your down slide is some what controlled and a nice even drop with what will hopefully be a good up swing. Other will hang on for as long as possible and when they fall they hit hard. The way I see it unions were needed and gave workers some rights and protection from the greedy company's. Now I fear that most if not more than most unions have become the greedy ones and the fall will be hard. No one wants to here this but their are a lot of jobs that are over paid. Due to this we are seeing considerable jobs loses. Their is only so much money and so many jobs. Things have away of balancing itself. I think unions need to start backing down a little and let the jobs start coming back.Now I am not saying that all unions are this way but a lot of them are. I have worked for a union shop and I am currently in a union shop. The problem I have right now with my current situation is that that majority of the place I work are general laborers and some minor skill position. this means that the trades and high skilled position get screwed at contact time because the majority of the voters are looking after themselves. Votes win. Also it protects the trouble makers in a lot of cases. This I really hate and drives me crazy. I have missed 2 days of work in 10 years. never late once. I know guys that are late at least 1 day a week and never show up 2-8 days a month and they still have their jobs. Why?. If I can make it they can make it as I see it. I guess if the job is a union shop you should do your home work and see what that union really stands for. Remember, someone always pays so don't try to rip a union for a free ride.Sorry for the rant, just my true feeling.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:"Brick and Mortar" Unions are normally quite different than "Traveler" type Unions. jamlit, the brick and mortar type deals have long had those problems and that's a large part of the reason for their fall on hard times. Some of the Internationals have gotten so large as to have their management seemingly turned into the very thing they were created to defend the workers from. An excellent example of that would be the UAW. I've seen several cases where decisions were made apparently protecting the upper management positions rather than the workers as should be. I only dealt with them for a few years but won't make that mistake again !! On the other side of the coin is the travelers. These Unions, at least in my experience, are more like what one would think a Union should be. There are a lot of different ways of looking at any issue but that's my perspective on the issue.BTW, as for protecting the members that most of us normally agree shouldn't continue to hold the job, it's really ironic. In order to protect the contract and thereby the membership as a whole, they have to fight for everyone. Anything they allow to happen to a less desirable member becomes "presidence" and is therefore applicable to the whole membership. In other words, in order to protect the membership properly they have to take care of the dead weight also...sometimes it sucks but they don't have a choice if they're maintaining the contract properly. As for your coment on the validity of Unions in the workplace, I have seen their strength fall for the last 30 years. Both in the solid "brotherhood" of the membership and in the laws and courts. The Unions are fighting a two front battle, keeping their membership solid and minimzing the damage done by anti-Union laws and government leaders who support the corporate attitude.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:unions had there time and place. they have served the purpose that they were created for. they are no longer needed for the reason they were started. unions only have one main benefit, imo, that is training. as a younger worker, the union is a great way to start out. the training apprenticeship program will prepare you for almost anything you will encounter in the field.
Reply:Originally Posted by olddad BTW, as for protecting the members that most of us normally agree shouldn't continue to hold the job, it's really ironic. In order to protect the contract and thereby the membership as a whole, they have to fight for everyone. Anything they allow to happen to a less desirable member becomes "presidence" and is therefore applicable to the whole membership. In other words, in order to protect the membership properly they have to take care of the dead weight also...sometimes it sucks but they don't have a choice if they're maintaining the contract properly. .
Reply:Originally Posted by daddyolddad, pardon my ignorance, but why does being union seem to implicitly mean that the dead weight is carried? This is the part that bothers me the most. Someone eventually pays for the slackers in the form of higher prices or outsourced jobs or whatever it ends up being. Not to mention how much it sucks that someone can do half the work that you do and have the same compensation.This is a sincere question.
Reply:Originally Posted by qaqcunions had there time and place. they have served the purpose that they were created for. they are no longer needed for the reason they were started. unions only have one main benefit, imo, that is training. as a younger worker, the union is a great way to start out. the training apprenticeship program will prepare you for almost anything you will encounter in the field.
Reply:Originally Posted by obewanThe big issue is limitations on who can do what job.  I was working for a large robot company as a welding technician.  We went to a GM plant to work on some equipment that had a welding problem.  Because we were not "pipe fitters", we could not turn off the water cooling to work on the weld guns on the robots.  We waited 16 hours with (nothing to do) until a union "pipe fitter" came from another job to turn off the water.  Yes that plant was quite militant, and yes they would have taken us to court with a grievance if we had not respected the contract.   True story.  Oh, and I was making $18 an hour as a Robotics Tech with 2 BS degrees, and floor sweepers there started at $17 an hour.  The big 3 union robot techs were pulling in $45 and hour.  I suppose I would do it too if I could get away with it, but I would for sure break some rules as far as productivity goes.  I have met some union people who break the rules and do not impair productivity like the ones we met that day.
Reply:I am very pleased with the course this post had taken. Werther I agree on not is besides the point. People are posting very valid points here and the truth. this topic over all is a double edged sword. Their are good union and then their are bad one. All of them have their up and down side. So it hard to see the true right of things. Everyone will need to look at the union they are considering in joining and find out what that union stands for.I think unions as a whole have had their day and its time to let go a little but that is from my experience. This does not apply to all unions.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:Originally Posted by obewanBecause we were not "pipe fitters", we could not turn off the water cooling to work on the weld guns on the robots.  We waited 16 hours with (nothing to do) until a union "pipe fitter" came from another job to turn off the water.
Reply:Some points just can't be argued. But like life itself, there is nothing that doesn't contain both positive AND negative. Burnit, I agree with you about weighing each purchase on it's own merits. I am one of the guys that always yell BUY AMERICAN, but every purchase needs to be in order with it's possible options. If prices are close it's a no brainer...if it's a larger purchase more investigation is needed. The biggest thing to keep site of is buying within our means. The problem there is that we've become a "right now" society. We've little patients to save to buy the items we need or desire. Everything our parents and grandparents learned in/from the "Great Depression" has been lost in todays society. Some other items to consider, the "package". Wages normally aren't half of the total package. Do you have insurance, a retirement plan, any kind of continued education plan ?? My wife recently left a job and when we got the COBRA paper I was shocked to say the least !! The family policy we had was priced to us in the COBRA package as $1100 a month !! You want to give credit to the Union for that rediculas price ?? It was a decent policy, by no means great...for $1100 A MONTH !! Then there's retirement, the old vested policies have proven to be shakey at best. Many have been underfunded or NOT funded for years. The retirement is pretty much only as good as the firm doing the investing. I have several friends that have retired only to have to go back to work after "Black Monday" wiped out the company contracted investment firms. What that equated to was a bargained benefit that didn't essentially didn't exist after that day. The consumers had been paying for it all along though !! There are many other things that drive up expenses that are are beyond the control of the "Unions". Outsourcing many functions of a job costs untold $$$ every year do to rework and scrap which the Union has no control over. Many, Many things that can't be attributed to the Union workforce that we get blamed for.Anyway, as a young Thai friend once told me, "Dan, you know, you're not very good with words"...hey, I'm trying...LOLAnything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:If the price difference isnt much oh yeah, I always buy American.  But most of the stuff I am shopping for if you buy overseas stuff its junk anyway (tools etc.)I hear ya about the COBRA thing, I dont get it. I left my job yesterday, and the lady told me it would be about 375 a month to COBRA my insurance. I laughed out loud. Our insurance already sucked, so I had looked into getting my own, and got a better policy for less then 150 a month.I wonder why COBRA costs so much.
Reply:Originally Posted by WHughesThey are needed for the exact reason there were created. So the working man has representation. So that I have rights and more importantly, recourse if my rights are violated.