Pretty, Advanced vs. Basic bead!

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I just had a (what I think) to be a good topic idea. Why not have some of the pro welders do a test? Do some weld's that are really nice (looks like tig lol) and do some strength testing and then do just a basic weld bead (that isn't so pretty) and do some testing and post some pics. That way we all see that it doesn't have to look beautiful to still be a good solid weld. I am concentrating on basic technique but I can't help to want my welds to look beautiful also. I am very picky and a perfectionist I guess. Would love to see the pics and tests between the 2. And post information about the technique used and such. I know some of you will jump on this test and get some pics up.
Reply:Do I get to do pretty or UGLY?  MIG?  Stick?  Plate thickness?DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:keep working on the basics....the looks will come....if you lay a bad one no worries about grinding them out....every one has to at some point....I'm no pro but what would you like to see.....
Reply:The thing is it seems to me is some weldors try to make beads look good above making them strong.   Strength is most important.  Most of my welds will not be seen or if they are, nobody cares. Look at that pretty bead.That weld didn't hold.Which is better for YOUR reputation?Which is going to be remembered?DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Talking about mig. I know and understand but am I wrong in saying the advanced guys (all compared to me LOL) make a nice bead and it is strong? If it's a nice bead doesn't mean its weak correct? I just understand that if you have been doing it for a while and are very good people are going to know just by your technique and bead. And will still be super strong correct? I want to be great some day is why I am saying this. I have no problem welding the materials right now but I would like to have expert technique also later on. Now lets see some pics and testing LOL. ANYONE!
Reply:We have all had a nice looking weld, and then found it to have cracks in them, or when you lean on it the first time, you get some movement where there should not be any. It happens. Experience will keep you from doing the things that are REALLY wrong, things that may look really good, but are not strong enough. I'll give some examples: Welding downhill on thick material, especially single pass. Now, I weld downhill all the time. But, it's thin material, and penetration and filler are not a problem. But I don't do a downhill weld on 5/16" steel. I don't just fuse weld regular steel, with the exception of tiny parts that are non structural/ purely decorative stuff. I try to stick to filler materials I know the properties of, and don't try to mix things up, like using 308SS as filler for mild steel stuff. Lots of ugly beads are strong- I have no choice sometimes when welding a chassis other than to pour in the filler around corners to get 100% coverage with the weld. I can see it with mirrors, and I can 'feel' the weld, but I can't actually see when I am doing the weld. So, sometimes they are multi-pass, like it or not!!! But ugly and strong definitely beats pretty and not that strong.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:I did a search and found a video from Asod method I believe. I can't get it to load. Not on there anymore? I would love to see that video. Found some sweet looking weld beads in the search. Anyone got the video and can send it to me or repost it? PLEASE!
Reply:Originally Posted by David RThe thing is it seems to me is some weldors try to make beads look good above making them strong.   Strength is most important.
Reply:Maybe I can explain it this way.  Once you get control of the puddle, and know what its going to do, you can make a good bead.  Once you can do that, manipulating the puddle to look how you want isn't that hard.  My first welder was Lincoln gas powered G7.  My first mig was an LN-25 to go along with it.  I didn't have a clue how to use it or anyone to show me.  That was around 1987.  I still have both machines.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:To begin with I am a pro. I have neither the time nor inclination to do tests and take pics for someones amusement. The key is I am a pro. I do this all day and when I have free time I would much rather be doing something else than welding. David is telling you right. Concentrate on getting it right and then work on looks. If you are doing it right chances are it's going to look pretty good. As far as Mig goes looks don't mean a damn thing. Just that it's pretty or ugly. I have seen the prettiest Mig welds fall apart sitting on the floor, and the ugliest hold for years. The outside appearance of a weld is purely cosmetic. It's whats inside where you can't see it that counts.The first G6 stick pipe test I ever took I passed. I don't recall the standard but you were allowed 1/8th inch total defect in 12 inches of weld on schedule 80 six inch. It wasn't particularly pretty, and the shop foreman remarked about that. I told him I was just glad I passed it at all since I hadn't touched a torch or stinger in over a year. I won't tell you his response. Cutting and beveling the pipe was part of the test. Hand cut, no beveling machine allowed. I hope that illustrates the important part of the welding process for you. It's what's on the inside that counts. A grinder will fix the outside.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jolly RogerTo begin with I am a pro. I have neither the time nor inclination to do tests and take pics for someones amusement. The key is I am a pro. I do this all day and when I have free time I would much rather be doing something else than welding.
Reply:LOL, for my amusement? So every question someone askes or is interested in is for our amusement. NO buddy, sounds like you had a bad day at the office. If you don't like welding after you get home or have the time to, why the hell are you on here and wasting your time even answering? I ENJOY welding and I ENJOY learning on this site. Sorry, buy you hit me the wrong way! Sorry if I offended anyone else but I asked a question that I thought others would be interested in also.
Reply:So does anyone know anything about the ASOD method video? I have been working on watching the puddle better and trying different techniques such as circles and weaves and I believe I am getting some very good beads. I'll have to get some more pics.
Reply:I know that Engloid, but what's inside is far more important than what is outside from the standpoint of proper procedure. Yes you can see some things that will make the weld suspect from an external visual inspection, but that tells you nothing about internal defects. I visually inspect every pass of every weld I make. What is going on inside the puddle as I am making the weld is of far greater concern to me simply because that is the part that can't be visually inspected. Anything I can see I can fix. If you are doing everything correctly as you put it in then the visually observable defects will be rare occurrences, barring bad material. I have never seen a weld fail from minor porosity on the starts on a cap, I have seen them fail because guys didn't grind out their wagon tracks, from incomplete penetration on the root, slag inclusions and a few others, none observable under visual inspection. My point concerned aesthetics. Pretty versus ugly. Aesthetics are simply aesthetics and nothing more.I am not generally a rude or even difficult person to get along with, but jeez, some of the things people ask you to do are ridiculous. Especially when the information is already available. Visiting this site and answering questions or sharing information is not a waste of my time. I do it to relax. Asking me to make a bunch of welds, both pretty and ugly (and once you get to the point pretty is the norm ugly actually takes work to achieve) then bending and breaking them and taking pics and posting them is wasting my time. That information is already out there. I do enjoy welding or I wouldn't do it, but after all these years when I have free time (I own the company and free time is something I get little of) I don't care to spend it making and breaking or bending welds just because someone thinks it would be cool. Myself and most pros will answer any question we can for you, but we have lives outside of welding as well. Right now this is all new and fun to you. I still remember how much fun it was for me when I started. When you get to the point you are burning rod after rod for 10+ hours a day sometimes 7 days a week, sometimes 6 months or more without a day off, and have done so for years, you will not want to either. I will teach anyone who wants to learn, but be prepared to be the grinder hand, gopher, shop sweeper, ect. That's how all of us oldtimers paid for our education. Now go to this link and buy this book, it will show you all of that and explain what was done right and what was done wrong as well as showing pictures of all of it. It is the definitive text on the subject, from the worlds top authority. I have two copies (one a gift from my father ((75th anniversary leather bound special edition)) and another, that I still refer to on a regular basis. It's the best 25 bucks you will ever spend and worth far more than that.https://ssl.lincolnelectric.com/linc...asp?prodnum=PHThey also have videos and other materials as well. Most if not all of the info in the book is available online through their knowledgebase.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Dang I see now! The thread on your screen says "ATTENTION Jolly Roger, your mission, should you choose to accept.............." I didn't ask you personally. I see threads all the time from people who have more time than you I guess welding, razorblades together, pop cans, testing welds, etc. Please just ignore any further posts of mine. Have a nice day sir.
Reply:Originally Posted by Addicted2FusionDang I see now! The thread on your screen says "ATTENTION Jolly Roger, your mission, should you choose to accept.............." I didn't ask you personally. I see threads all the time from people who have more time than you I guess welding, razorblades together, pop cans, testing welds, etc. Please just ignore any further posts of mine. Have a nice day sir.
Reply:Originally Posted by Addicted2FusionTalking about mig. I know and understand but am I wrong in saying the advanced guys (all compared to me LOL) make a nice bead and it is strong? If it's a nice bead doesn't mean its weak correct? I just understand that if you have been doing it for a while and are very good people are going to know just by your technique and bead. And will still be super strong correct? I want to be great some day is why I am saying this. I have no problem welding the materials right now but I would like to have expert technique also later on. Now lets see some pics and testing LOL. ANYONE!
Reply:I did do a SEARCH. Found a video that I was interested in seeing and it would no longer load up so that was the part of my question. If we wanted to get technical. Almost every new question that is posted everyday you could do a SEARCH and find many answers because the same stuff has been gone over. If that was the case we wouldn't need the forum just the search of the history of the forum. Damn didn't know my question would start a feud. lol.
Reply:why would anyone who has full control of the weld pool deliberately strive for an ugly weld. pipefitter. roger you are the only artist in history who dosn,t like to show his work.
Reply:Thanks pipe fighter, I won't talk bad about you because of your vocation, lol. I don't think some even consider how important what you do is to a good weld. I don't mind showing my art at all, but welding is just welding. I don't get to take a lot of pics of the stuff I build or repair simply because it is gone as soon as I am done. The few I do have right now are stuck on the cam because I put the usb cable up so it wouldn't get messed up, and where I knew I would be able to find it, and now I can't remember where I put it, lol. I just get a bit miffed at those who want me to go out and work so they don't have to do a little work on their own. Heck, that info is even easier to find now than it was before the internet.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:LOL, one in every bunch. I'd WORK you under the table old man. Everytime I come to this post I tell myself I am gonna forget about your rudeness and then you got another smart comment to make. I was gonna be the better man but damn you just got an attitude problem.
Reply:Originally Posted by Addicted2FusionLOL, one in every bunch. I'd WORK you under the table old man. Everytime I come to this post I tell myself I am gonna forget about your rudeness and then you got another smart comment to make. I was gonna be the better man but damn you just got an attitude problem.
Reply:I will apologize for being rude. I do it on occasion though usually not intentionally and after rereading I was rude. My point is still valid though. Why spend time doing something that has already been done, by the experts on the subject with the pictures, the causes and solutions all in one place. Read that book as there is 100 years of knowledge in it on this subject. It will answer questions you didn't even know you had, and fifteen minutes spent in it will amaze you the next time you fire up if you put it in practice. I am serious, try it. Even better visit their knowledgebase as it has everything the book has in it. Misinformation is rampant on these boards, but the information in that book and on that website is tried, true and indisputable. They also have the worlds leading experts on any facet of welding you want to explore in their employ, and give you the means to ask them your questions. If it is a valid question, and the answer isn't already in the knowledgebase they will answer you back. It may take a bit because it has to find it's way to the right person, and even then they may have to do some research to give you an answer. I've only used it twice, with questions not addressed in the knowledgebase, and that I have never seen addressed on any of the boards, and both times was answered within a few days. Believe it or not I have always been the welder the helpers and fitters wanted to work with. Engloid is right about construction. I did do it for a few years, and had actually found a really great company to work for. Paid well, chance for advancement, excellent insurance, good retirement, but unfortunately all of the paychecks said Enron on them and you can guess what happened to an entire construction company. You will meet a few really good people in it, but most I wouldn't even tell where I lived. If you can't handle being around drunks and druggies then find a line of work other than welding. I had one boss tell me he had never met a welder that didn't drink before. At the same place every month he would come ask me if I could pass a drug test, and then tell me to go take it because none of the others could. Hire on in construction and six months later you will see that it is an almost entirely new crew due to all the failed whizz quizzes. I have also never stabbed anyone, my kids have never gone without, have no alimony to pay, not running from the law, have no aliases, own every piece of equipment I have paid for in cash, and believe it or not had a top secret security clearance for 8 years. They don't let just anybody have one of those. Nowhere in your initial post was there any mention of any video. Do I love welding. You tell me. I can discuss it for hours and never get bored by the subject and invariably come away with something knew from it. It gets to you though when someone new to the trade comes in and makes a proposal that has already been made a hundred times before and the fact of the matter is that the info is already freely available and easily accessed. Ask me all of the questions you want and if I know the answer I will readily give it. If it is a direct question to me and I don't know it I will also tell you straight up, but you can also bet I will be looking for the answer, and not on a web board. Don't ask me to make examples for you to look at because it won't happen. Ask me where you can find an example and I will tell you. When I was at the point you are at we had no internet, and if I had made that proposal to the welders I worked with I would have probably gotten my a$$ kicked just for the fun of it. You can't make a stick weld look like a tig weld, and tig welding is an expensive time intensive process. That is why it is rapidly being replaced with other processes or automation. Learn to properly execute the procedure to where it doesn't fail, then worry about cosmetics. Those come with time. Practice until you can't stand it and then practice some more, because that is the only way you will get there. Now go get your stinger and give this instruction a try (not mine, but one I learned from an old hand when I was a pup and still as true as it ever was, and applicable to every process) worry about the edges and the middle will take care of itself.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Hey Jolly Roger no hard feelings. I think there might have been some confusion as I was talking about MIG and I didn't post about the video til later on. I will check out the link you posted if I haven't already. Since I decided I wanted to learn to weld and be a great welder I have spent endless hours doing research and reading. I have an awesome book at the moment. Welding Practices and Principles. I am sorry for getting hot, but I do have a very short fuse and take it very personal if I feel someone is disrespectful to me. I just got excited. Stems from my younger days. I did have a alias, lol from my Toughman days, "psycho" was my name. Go figure lol. Anyways I look forward to any future information you have to give or can guide me towards. Now, lets go have a beer, ON YOU lol.
Reply:I think the reason you aren't getting anything about your video is because nobody knows what you are talking about. I got really curious as I had never heard of it and spent about 1 1/2 hours hunting for it. Best I can tell you is there is no such thing. If you want good videos check out lincoln they have a lot of them and everything they tell you is accurate. I see where you want to be a welder and can't afford school. Things you can do. Hire on as a helper, go to one of the unions and get in their apprentice program, join the US Navy and get it in your contract. I know several guys who went that last route and all of them are very good. The navy wrote the book on heated pressure vessels and piping. It's only 4 years, you get paid, get your trade, take the GI Bill and it pays for your formal education once you are out. Straight out of the service you will qualify for gov't grants and the Gi Bill is on top, tax free. In '04 the other guys were getting right at 1000.00 a month off of it, can't tell you the exact amount as I got 1495.00 thanks to the army college fund. It was a special deal for taking a critical shortage MOS. It was actually an if you want to know what the job is sign up and then you can find out once you have your TS clearance. I absolutely loved my job, but I got hurt and could no longer do pushups or fire weapons so I had to go on to a different life. I now have an AAS and a BAAS and uncle paid for all of it, well not the computers or the 3 grand in art supplies (I got bored with computers and wanted to learn something I knew absolutely nothing about), but without it I would never have gotten either. The majority of employers will not hire you straight out of school as a welder (with the exception of a couple of schools, namely the Tulsa School of Welding or NMJC) because there is no sub for experience. At NMJC your final exam is a G6 hot tie in on pipe. The set up all the safety guys, the fire department, paramedics, turn on the gas, you light it and weld it. When you are done it is x-rayed then coupons are cut and subjected to destructive testing. If it fails you fail and get to come back next semester. I can't hire you as a welder because I need welders that don't need anyone there to tell them how to build or fix whatever they are called on. As a welder many times your customers only know what they need to do, not how to do it or how to build it. Don't rush out to jump in over your head as it can ruin a promising career before it ever gets started. I have seen it happen many many times to young guys. You can get into mig faster than sticks simply because the learning curve isn't as steep and the skills required as difficult to master. Tig is something you learn because you want to, in practice there is less call for it every day as it is the least cost effective and most time consuming process. In my business sticks pay the way because of their versatility. I use Mig, both GTAW and FCAW for everything I possibly can, but there are things neither are well suited for. My advice is to consider the three options I mentioned earlier because they beat the H@LL out of trial and error. And with all three, unlike school, you get paid to learn.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.i wanna see a pretty vertical 6010Complete Fabrication Shop specializing in pipe fabrication. Also offering heavy steel fabrication and sheet metal work.
Reply:Coming soon scubaThe difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:LOL sure it is
Reply:You've never spent any time around pipe hands or pipeliners have ya. I'm a little rusty at it because it isn't well suited for most of what I do, too brittle, but I do have some stuff coming up that it will be used on.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Well, I didn't have any 6010 so I used 6011, 6010 will lay down even smoother. This is 3/32 6011 on 12ga sheet using a Reddarc EX300 Inverter at 65 amps. This is just everyday work, nothing special, no cleaning before welding, just ran a long tack. The actual welding will be done using wire feeders and Lincoln NR 211-MP. Attached ImagesThe difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Originally Posted by scubaholici wanna see a pretty vertical 6010
Reply:Don't scare 'em too bad banshee. See what practice, practice, practice does for you. When you are in practice with it you can lay 6010  that looks like you spread it with a butter knife. Just tiny, tiny ripples. I haven't tried any 10 class rods withthis new machine but I am sure it will be smoother than the inverter.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.