Roll bar welding Q's

admin

I'm putting a roll bar in my car shortly, and I'm not sure my welder is going to cut the mustard.. I'm going to stop by a local shop and get a small piece of tubing to test weld on it to make sure, but want some opinions from the experienced.it's a Lincoln pro mig 135Now the manual (PDF) page 20 says it can weld that much with flux core but not with gas...http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...r/im/IM787.pdfthis is the deciding factor on whether or not to rent a stronger welder if I have to, or having someone else weld it up (which I'd rather save the moeny and do it myself).It's a mild steel, 10ga .135" tubing, cage....www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:i am afraid that lincoln 135 wont penetrate enough to weld that. i would at least step up to the 220 volt machines (hh187, miller 180,lincoln 180). also a lot of people tig weld their roll bars and roll cages. not that there is anything wrong with mig.
Reply:Note,Check any and all possible sanctioning bodies/groups for their rules/regs regarding rollbars before what is acceptable and required and prohibited -before- doing a rollbar.  Different groups have different 'standards' and some overlap but others don't.That said, a 120V MIG machine isn't quite up to the task of working on 10 gauge tube IMHO.  And 10 gauge is 0.140 (9/64) btw, not 0.135.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by down19992000i am afraid that lincoln 135 wont penetrate enough to weld that. i would at least step up to the 220 volt machines (hh187, miller 180,lincoln 180). also a lot of people tig weld their roll bars and roll cages. not that there is anything wrong with mig.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseNote,Check any and all possible sanctioning bodies/groups for their rules/regs regarding rollbars before what is acceptable and required and prohibited -before- doing a rollbar.  Different groups have different 'standards' and some overlap but others don't.That said, a 120V MIG machine isn't quite up to the task of working on 10 gauge tube IMHO.  And 10 gauge is 0.140 (9/64) btw, not 0.135.
Reply:Also note:If you have to ask if a 120V MIG is 'enough' welder to weld a rollcage, you really aren't ready to weld a rollcage.Practice and learn and maybe take some course(s) BEFORE you weld or attempt to weld a rollcage.It is deceptively easy to make a MIG weld that superficially looks fine, but is actually weak and barely fused into the parent metal.And a rollcage is not just for looks.  It is there to save your A&& if things go wrong.  Pretty but weak welds won't do it.  Ugly and weak won't do it either.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:I'm a a fairly good welder, I was hearing that my welder might not be enough, so I figure before I dive into it, i'd ask around and go from there.. My fathers garage is wired for 220 so if I need to I'll rent a 220v mig and practice on some tubing and see.. I know someone that can weld the cage, but he's way down past atco..www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:That machine is WAY too clean to even consider calling yerself a fairly good welderEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:if you have to ask if a 120V MIG is 'enough' welder to weld a rollcage, you really aren't ready to weld a rollcage.
Reply:No offense meant, or taken.Just to me, if I have to ask it means I don't know.  If I don't know, it means I really shouldn't be doing something (potentially) dangerous.And doing a not-quite-so-good job on a rollcage is potentially dangerous IMHO.Hence my suggestion to practice, learn, and get some instruction if needed.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Ya I am all for practice and definately agree that a roll cage is not a time to learn.  Just seemed like the question was more of a technical machine question than a "I just got a welder for my birthday and was thinking about building a roller coaster, what kind of tube should I buy for the tracks" type question Glad to see you didnt take offense
Reply:Originally Posted by MartygrasYa I am all for practice and definately agree that a roll cage is not a time to learn.  Just seemed like the question was more of a technical machine question than a "I just got a welder for my birthday and was thinking about building a roller coaster, what kind of tube should I buy for the tracks" type question Glad to see you didnt take offense
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1That machine is WAY too clean to even consider calling yerself a fairly good welder
Reply:i second on checking your sanctioning body (im into classic mustangs) and im currently building an open tracker.  If your putting it in because you think it looks cool, buy a bolt in one and save yourself the headache.If your getting into racing make sure the cage is allowed to be mig welded, and if it is turn that machine up and lay those passes in there nice and hot.
Reply:That lincoln 135 will weld a roll cage just fine.Last edited by TSOR; 09-23-2008 at 03:27 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseIt is deceptively easy to make a MIG weld that superficially looks fine, but is actually weak and barely fused into the parent metal..
Reply:Originally Posted by speedfreak87I'm putting a roll bar in my car shortly, and I'm not sure my welder is going to cut the mustard.. I'm going to stop by a local shop and get a small piece of tubing to test weld on it to make sure, but want some opinions from the experienced.it's a Lincoln pro mig 135Now the manual (PDF) page 20 says it can weld that much with flux core but not with gas...http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...r/im/IM787.pdfthis is the deciding factor on whether or not to rent a stronger welder if I have to, or having someone else weld it up (which I'd rather save the moeny and do it myself).It's a mild steel, 10ga .135" tubing, cage....
Reply:The welder will work fine.  One area to pay close attention to is where you tie it into the frame.  Tube to tube is no problem, but if your frame is significantly heavier in that area, proceed with caution.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1That machine is WAY too clean to even consider calling yerself a fairly good welder
Reply:If the sanctioning body rules say MIG is allowable, that refers to GMAW.Flux-core is FCAW.And GMAW and FCAW are not exactly the same process.The PM135 can 'do' the thickness of your proposed roll-cage with FCAW, but not quite with GMAW.  Moving up to a 180amp class (220-240V) MIG machine, and you could do that thickness tube with either FCAW or GMAW as those machines generally have the ooomph to do so.Also note that although I generally like Lincoln's NR-211-MP FCAW wire (the wire that came/comes with the PM135 and pretty much all of the Lincoln 'small' MIG machines and the one you can find easily at various stores) for around-the-house-or-shop projects and it is generally a nice wire, it is NOT rated for structural use and has NO listed impact properties nor does it have any requirement for meeting impact properties.In other words, I would NOT use NR-211-MP to weld a roll cage.  Lincoln's 'standard' MIG wire is L-56, and is an ER70S-6 wire that has listed/rated impact properties.  I would say that the L-56 wire would be a decent wire to use for a structural/impact application.It's not just the machine, but the wire and shielding gas choices that play a part in whether something is 'good' to use to weld a cage together.And invoking ZTFab in this discussion really isn't applicable.  Speedfreak here is relatively new to welding (per his own introduction in the "Intro" section of the forums), while Paul/ZTFab is a welding cyborg.  I thought my Lincoln 120V MIG machine (different label, pretty much the same as the PM135) did OK on 1/8 inch steel using FCAW 0.035 NR-211 wire, but didn't really have the snot to go much past that without all sorts of tricks. Although the door-chart claims up to 1/4 inch thick material is possible with that machine and 0.035 NR-211 FCAW wire, I thought welding that thickness was pretty iffy.  With GMAW and 0.030 or 0.023/0.025 L-56 wire and C25 gas, it seems to top-out at around 14-16 gauge material, which is what the door-chart says as well.10 gauge with the PM135 and GMAW?  Nope, the machine just doesn't really have enough snot.  Remember, those machines are 90A rated (at a 20% duty cycle).  They are nice and handy machines within their limits.But that's why I also have a 240V MIG machine.    Because I kind of found the limits of the 120V MIG machine pretty quickly.And 0.025 L-56 with C-25 gas tops out at a rated 12 gauge with the SP175 machine.  You just can't get enough amps through that little wire to do 1/4 inch thick workpieces.  Go to 0.035 L-56  with C-25 and you would be close to being able to work on that 1/4 inch thick piece.Last edited by MoonRise; 09-24-2008 at 01:29 PM.Reason: more info  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Moonrise said it. Flux core is not Mig. Also I dont care how goo of a welder you are Get a few Tube projects with triangulation under your belt before trying a Rollbar. You fitting skill will be as important as the welding.
Reply:I went and picked up some tubing today, I'll see what comes of it this weekend.. Like stated if this weld can't cut it, I will rent a stronger one..  I appreciate all your info.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloPaul- ZTFab does cage work all the time with his 135 Lincoln. I used to do a bunch of it with my Lincoln 100. The tube is in general .120 wall, and the 135 is good for .200 with no preheat, no problem. Nobody is making a cage out of 1/4" wall tube. The welder can do the job just fine; be sure to get good fitup to minimize your extra work, and you can do it. As to wether you are ready for an entire cage?? Get some guys who have some experience to help you, and just be sure to do the best job you possibly can; don't cut corners.GO FOR IT!!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by malichThe 135 will do the roll bar with FCAW and not MIG.  Cages need to be MIG or TIG.  If you are not going to certify the cage and you are real good with FCAW, then go fo rit.I got TIG because MIG welding a cage is very hard do the the speed you need to move.
Reply:That's probably a little weak for that job, however keep in mind I did a rollbar in a pure stock car with 1/8 in. 6011's. and it worked just fine .Red Devil, you misunderstood what he was saying about speed of TIG versus MIG.What he was saying, is that with MIG you HAVE to move faster than you do with TIG.  This makes it more difficult to control the path of the puddle when you have to work around a small diameter tube, especially when it's in close proximity to a vehicle interior or another obstical that impedes easy and direct viewing and access to the joint being welded.  I think you're a little quick on the trigger to jump down his throat.  Instead of slicing and dicing before you understand what he's saying, slow down and actually read it.  Hell, it's after 1am, I've got a wicked headache, and even I got the point he was trying to make.Jeeze. . . .BK
Reply:"Weldingweb, where the moderators are harder than a bad girls' dreams"
Reply:Originally Posted by jetenginedoctorEd, come on. . . . .  If somebody takes good care of their tools, it means that they don't know how to use them?  Gonna have to throw a BS flag on that play.
Reply:Originally Posted by jetenginedoctorRed Devil, you misunderstood what he was saying about speed of TIG versus MIG.What he was saying, is that with MIG you HAVE to move faster than you do with TIG.  This makes it more difficult to control the path of the puddle when you have to work around a small diameter tube, especially when it's in close proximity to a vehicle interior or another obstical that impedes easy and direct viewing and access to the joint being welded.  I think you're a little quick on the trigger to jump down his throat.  Instead of slicing and dicing before you understand what he's saying, slow down and actually read it.  Hell, it's after 1am, I've got a wicked headache, and even I got the point he was trying to make.Jeeze. . . .BK
Reply:Originally Posted by down19992000"Weldingweb, where the moderators are harder than a bad girls' dreams"
Reply:A 135 amp 110 volt mig will do the job just fine as long as you know what you are doing. I have made tube frame with my MM130 and I never broke a weld yet, and believe me I have bent the frames many times.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:Originally Posted by jamlitA 135 amp 110 volt mig will do the job just fine as long as you know what you are doing. I have made tube frame with my MM130 and I never broke a weld yet, and believe me I have bent the frames many times.
Reply:The problem I find with questions like this is that 110 volt migs seem to be looked down on. They are fine machines when used in their proper range. Thin tubing is no trouble but Like said, for jobs like roll bars and such, experience is a must. I would never recommend a beginner go and do a job like this but if their was a experienced welder there to over see the project, I would go for it.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:You could always weld up a piece of plate that's the same thickness as the pipe and then have an xray done on it.  Shops near me will do an xray for about $70, if it's a small enough piece to carry it in to them.
Reply:Rojo,I have to take exception to your comments regarding mig vs tig.I have a M10 Miller gun on my HH187, a small tweeco gun on the 120v Solar, and a Q300 on my MM251.  I assure you I can get a flex head 20 series tig torch into places I'd never even think of trying with a mig gun, no matter how small.Speed of mig is a definite liability when doing such work as cage building.  Your comment about letting up on the trigger will almost surely result in a cold weld (potential failure point).  This technique really only has application when dealing with extremely thin material not subjected to a lot of stress.  A cage doesn't meet that definition.Your comment about wanting the job done in weeks, not months leads me to believe you've never been exposed to production tig fabrication.  A full tuna tower on a 60' Sportfisherman (aluminum even) will have ten times the number of welds as a roll cage in an auto (and nearly all welds are "out of position").  Towers are fabricated in weeks, not months.  An experienced tig welder will complete the same pipe/tubing (360 degrees) weld in less than twice the time the same weld takes to mig (and with much better results).  Fabrication/fitup will take more than twice as long as the welding regardless of the process.Personally, if a car I intend to race has a cage, that cage isn't going to be welded with a 120v mig welder.  It's going to be tigged, or it's going to be welded with a mig welder I KNOW has enough balls to do the job.BTW:  You did come down pretty hard on that previous poster (especially for a moderator).  I fully understood what he meant regarding the speed of mig and had no problem with his comment.  (And you know I don't mind calling out ignorance)Just my .02Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:I have to agree with sundown on this 100%
Reply:See my before and after photos......120mph into concrete wall = Get the best weld you can for the Roll Cage....I "limped" away Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by Campbell_HausfeldSee my before and after photos......120mph into concrete wall = Get the best weld you can for the Roll Cage....I "limped" away
Reply:Honestly, there's a right tool and a wrong tool for the job.  If all you know how to use competently is the wrong tool, then you should find someone who can help you use the right tool.  I'm not comfortable with MIG welded cages by and large, even though I've seen a few that were done pretty well.  For most guys who just want a cage for the sake of saying they have a cage, that's probably okay.  For my customers who see speeds approaching 200mph, anything less than the best possible results is simply unacceptable.  Tell me you can produce these results with a 120V powered MIG welder, and I'll tell you you're high on crack.BK
Reply:Do keep in mind that when using ER70S, it will have a tensile strength of 70ksi....regardless of whether it is used in the MIG or TIG process.  I've done many things that lives depended on, with the MIG process.  This includes many things that had to be x-ray'd, and done within specifications for the military.  MIG on a roll cage can be done and hold as well as dig, IF it's done properly.
Reply:Nascar chassies are all mig welded. I think his shows that mig is very capable for this type of work.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:Originally Posted by jetenginedoctorHonestly, there's a right tool and a wrong tool for the job.  If all you know how to use competently is the wrong tool, then you should find someone who can help you use the right tool.  I'm not comfortable with MIG welded cages by and large, even though I've seen a few that were done pretty well.  For most guys who just want a cage for the sake of saying they have a cage, that's probably okay.  For my customers who see speeds approaching 200mph, anything less than the best possible results is simply unacceptable.  Tell me you can produce these results with a 120V powered MIG welder, and I'll tell you you're high on crack.BK
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabSo, just because you're not comfortable welding a cage with a MIG, it's not acceptable for others unless they're building a cage just for show? Lincoln rates their SP model for 10ga (.134") material for MIG and, as stated before, the majority of cage material is .120" and in some cases can be .083-.095". I'm willing to bet that if you are building chassis/cages for customers that are attempting to hit the 200mph mark, you are going to use the lightest possible materials to save weight.Other than a particular sanctioning body requirement(s) that may not allow MIG welding of certain materials, why would a 110 welder not be able to handle this job? Let's not forget that the engineering of the cage/chassis structure play a HUGE part in it's effectiveness. I'm not saying that the design can make up for crappy welding but if the cage has inherent design issues, like induced shear points, no amount of precision TIG or MIG welding will make up for that. ...I almost forgot, can anybody spare some change? I have to go buy some more crack.
Reply:i ve welded beam gussets w/ the same machine, n there still standing. If U know how to properly weld, u have plenty of machine! watch ur wire speed n heat, if u r doubting ur abilities, take the project to a trained welder!
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabSo, just because you're not comfortable welding a cage with a MIG, it's not acceptable for others unless they're building a cage just for show? Lincoln rates their SP model for 10ga (.134") material for MIG and, as stated before, the majority of cage material is .120" and in some cases can be .083-.095". I'm willing to bet that if you are building chassis/cages for customers that are attempting to hit the 200mph mark, you are going to use the lightest possible materials to save weight.Other than a particular sanctioning body requirement(s) that may not allow MIG welding of certain materials, why would a 110 welder not be able to handle this job? Let's not forget that the engineering of the cage/chassis structure play a HUGE part in it's effectiveness. I'm not saying that the design can make up for crappy welding but if the cage has inherent design issues, like induced shear points, no amount of precision TIG or MIG welding will make up for that. ...I almost forgot, can anybody spare some change? I have to go buy some more crack.
Reply:Originally Posted by penetration31i ve welded beam gussets w/ the same machine, n there still standing. If U know how to properly weld, u have plenty of machine! watch ur wire speed n heat, if u r doubting ur abilities, take the project to a trained welder!
Reply:Do keep in mind that the machine may not get the greatest of penetration.  Therefore, pay special attention to the joint prep (possibly bevel parts), or make sure you have a nice sized fillet to make up for it.
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidDo keep in mind that the machine may not get the greatest of penetration.  Therefore, pay special attention to the joint prep (possibly bevel parts), or make sure you have a nice sized fillet to make up for it.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabI learned on a 110 and am self taught.
Reply:wow. lol!Ok, I was able to  test it out on my test piece this weekend, I cut a couple of pieces off and welded them on with different settings until I got the right one.. ran a couple beads with that, and the cut a piece off, notched it and welded it on, this welder will do the job with out a problem.. I've also done some more research, and there are quite a few people that have used the same welder for there cages and they passed cert for 9.99.. I'll be running 10's so i don't need the cert, but I don't see this being a problem.. just very time consuming, which I have no problem with.  The setting I have, is hottest temp (D setting) at 3.5 speed, with 8 lbs of gas pressure. and.30 (8mm) wire.www.thefusionsolution.com