Electrical Shock Inquiry

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Hi...  I'd like an answer to this question from some of you "Old Experts", and experienced hobbyists.  My Lincoln 225/125 AC/DC welder and my Clarke 95E manuals, along with the Lincoln website say NOT to replace rods in your holder while the machine is on.  Has anyone actually been shocked by doing this in DRY Weather ?   It's really hard for me to believe that someone having to replace 50 or more rods per day will actually get out of position to go turn the welder off and on just to replace the rod.  What do you guys do in "The Real World ?".  I've been doing this ever since I bought my welders.  And I've done it barehanded.  I retired from a 30 year electronics career about 4 years ago.  To my way of thinking, a 50 Volt Open Circuit would barely be felt, if at all in DRY Weather.  My machines have good grounds, as do my tool shed, and work table.  Personally, I've had no problems; but would like to hear from some "Old Hands".Thanks as Always, Ed VALast edited by edv7028; 11-04-2008 at 09:48 AM.
Reply:When it is wet or when your shoes are, you might get a tingle on AC.But I knew of a boat dock company that wanted me to weld for them that used straight AC roughneck engine drives mounted in little tugs.   I asked them to call me when they updated their machines.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I just scanned through the AC-225 manual but saw no reference to replacing the electrode while the unit is on . Which section or page is is mentioned? I saw a reference about not swapping out the electrode holder while the unit is on ....Belargehair__________________________Lincoln AC225 GLMHammers"I might be an adult, but I'm a minor at heart."
Reply:Hi belargehair...  Maybe I read that wrong about it being the electrode holder and not the actual rod.  I'm still pretty sure I've read it several times about not changing the rod out while the machine is on.  Thanks though !Ed VA
Reply:I've never shut a machine to change a rod, BUT:Those buzz boxes often have around 80V open circuit (the welding voltage is MUCH lower though).  With dry gloves, and dry flux on the rod, there's no chance of any sort of shock, but bring water to the party, and its possible.That's one thing I love about my inverter.  It only maintains around 6V open circuit, just to sense contact with the stick, and then ups the voltage when it starts the arc.  A bit safer.
Reply:the only times i have gotten shocked was if my feet were wet or i was sweating and was touching the work.  that would make for a long day if you leads were several hundred feet long. i hate getting shocked. so if it rains i wear rubber gloves and rubber boots.
Reply:Thanks Guys !  I was wondering if it was even possible under DRY conditions.  I've even used my bare hands to change rods in fog, with no problems.  I guess I just had this... "Fear" of going "Underground" before I was ready.Thanks Again !Ed VA
Reply:While you don't want to lick the rod, it's usually safe to change rods while the machine's running.  You'll get a buzz, but that's about it.  AC output, I believe, at least it's what it says on the frong panel, is 26v.  Won't kill you, but will make you aware of physicsFollowing pic--  Actual working conditions on a thing I built a while back.  Still here to talk about it  The shiny stuff is water.  Rubber boots, and wet gloves that day.You're in more danger connecting the plug to the power source on a wet day.  220 at 50amps.Don't try this in the bathtub Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:"Don't replace rods with the machine on". New one to me. If you had to shut your machine down every rod change you would never get anything done.I have changed thousands and thousands of rods over the years and only been shocked under one condition. When welding in the rain and getting wringing wet. The first time this ever happened to me was at night working on a drilling rig. It took about two rods to figure out to drop the stinger when the rod was burned down. When the machine idled down you could pick up the stinger, put in a rod, and go back to welding. Had to make sure to strike and maintain the arc or you got shocked again. A pair of rubber gloves went in the truck the next day and that took care of that problem.
Reply:The trick is to flick the old rod out and and catch a new one in the jaws of the stinger with out holding on to the new rod.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:ah its just a little tingle....
Reply:i don't like the lil tingle. actually i have always gotten hammered. not to many times but they have been good ones. i learned that if your sweaty you don't brace your knees under the table and hit the pedal while tig welding.
Reply:Patrick:Yep, my tig has booted me good. But I have learned not to rest my bare forearm on the bench, that's for sure!!9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250
Reply:While the HF on my Dynasty definitely lets you know it's there... never been buzzed by it during actual welding or my old Hobart.I believe there was a discussion between Westinghouse and Edison: a/c vs d/c.  AC kills, DC don't.  While I'd hate to try the theory, I'll take their word for it.
Reply:I always use welding gloves!! I have changed out sticks with the machine running before sure I have gotten a mild tingle.. I have also changed sticks in the rain while working in a farmers wet field and got zapped pretty good. Guess I have become immune to the zaps or just have been lucky. Either way its best to be safe and at least wear gloves.Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:Hello & Thanks to EVERYONE !  I just knew lots of you folks could give me some good input and confidence/advice. Thank You !  Ed VA
Reply:Hi FarmerSamm...  That's an impressive piece of work... whatever it is !  You guys humble me.  Maybe some day I'll have enough experience and find enough material to do something big too.  Can you please tell me how to insert photos into my posts ?  On my settings menu, everything is turned on; except for "html".  I clicked onto the "insert image" tool; but nothing seems to allow me to do this.  The menu DOES tell me that I'm allowed to post images.  I just haven't managed to do it yet.Thank You !Ed VA Originally Posted by farmersammWhile you don't want to lick the rod, it's usually safe to change rods while the machine's running.  You'll get a buzz, but that's about it.  AC output, I believe, at least it's what it says on the frong panel, is 26v.  Won't kill you, but will make you aware of physicsFollowing pic--  Actual working conditions on a thing I built a while back.  Still here to talk about it  The shiny stuff is water.  Rubber boots, and wet gloves that day.You're in more danger connecting the plug to the power source on a wet day.  220 at 50amps.Don't try this in the bathtub
Reply:Hit "Post Reply", then scroll down that page until you see "Manage Attachments", hit that then browse and it will let you select stuff from your pictures in your computer.  Open, then upload pics.BTW-  The "whatever it is" wound up being this.  The biggest most complex thing I've ever made.  It was a tough thing to make, and I'll probably never do anything more complex again. Attached ImagesLast edited by farmersamm; 11-05-2008 at 09:23 AM."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:when i first moved in here i could weld WITHOUT a ground when it was a LITTLE damp out. dont know exactly what the problem was but after 1 good shock i got an electrician on it, and he sorted out the shop wiring. Don't know what the problem was because he was speachless!
Reply:Originally Posted by slamdvw...I believe there was a discussion between Westinghouse and Edison: a/c vs d/c.  AC kills, DC don't.  While I'd hate to try the theory, I'll take their word for it.
Reply:As Mac said, AC or DC can kill and all.In the right (or wrong) circumstances, plain old 12V DC from a car battery can KILL you.  All it takes is a scarily low amount of milliamps through the heart to stop it, and you are dead.  Most of the time, normal human skin offers enough electrical resistance that 12V is safe, but if the resistance changes 12V -can- kill you.And Farmersamm, as mentioned above although the welding voltage may 'only' be 26V the OCV (open circuit voltage) on a stick welder could be up around 80V.  Which can shock you.Don't touch the electrified parts with your skin and you are usually OK.  That means wear gloves, flick the old stub out of the stinger without touching it, and put the new rod into the stinger without making yourself part of the welding circuit.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Hi & Thanks for your quick reply.  I've hit the Manage Attachments button; but nothing happens at all.  Anything else I should do ?  On your "Gizmo"... I'm REALLY Impresse !  Thanks for sharing the photo.Regards, Ed VA Originally Posted by farmersammHit "Post Reply", then scroll down that page until you see "Manage Attachments", hit that then browse and it will let you select stuff from your pictures in your computer.  Open, then upload pics.BTW-  The "whatever it is" wound up being this.  The biggest most complex thing I've ever made.  It was a tough thing to make, and I'll probably never do anything more complex again.
Reply:This is soooooo funny....How dumb can ya get.....lol..... A guy who purchased his lovely wife a pocket Taser  for their Anniversary  submitted this:  Last weekend I saw something at Larry's Pistol & Pawn Shop that sparked my  interest. The occasion was our 15Th Anniversary and I was  looking for a little  something extra for my wife Julie. What I came across was a 100,000 volt pocket/'purse-sized taser. The effects of the taser were supposed to be short lived with no long-term  adverse affect on the assailant allowing her adequate time to retreat to  safety. WAY TOO COOL!!!!!!!!! Long story short, I bought the device and brought it home. I loaded 2 AAA batteries in the darn thing and pushed the button. NOTHING!! I was disappointed. I learned however, that if I pushed the button AND  pressed it against a metal surface at the same time, I'd get the blue of electricity darting back  and forth between the prongs. AWESOME!!!!!! Unfortunately, I have yet to explain to Julie what  that burn spot is on the  face of her microwave. Okay, so I was home alone with this toy, thinking to myself that it couldn't  be all that bad with only 2 AAA batteries, right? There I sat in my recliner, my cat Gracie looking on intently (trusting  little soul) while I was reading the directions and thinking that I really  needed a flesh and blood target. I must admit I thought about zapping Gracie (for a fraction of a second )  but thought better of it. She is such a sweet cat. But If I was going to give this thing to my wife to protect herself against a mugger, I did want some assurance that it would work as advertised. AM I WRONG? So, there I sat in a pair of shorts and a tank top with my reading glasses  perched delicately on the bridge of my nose, directions in one hand and  taser in the other. The directions said that a one-second burst would shock and disorient your assailant. A two-second burst was suppose to cause muscle spasms and a major loss of  bodily control. A three-second burst would purportedly make your assailant flop on the  ground like a fish out of water. Any burst longer than three seconds would be wasting the batteries. All the while I'm looking at this little device measuring about 5' long,  less than 3/4' in circumference; pretty cute really and (loaded with 2 itsy  bitsy AAA batteries) thinking to myself, 'nopossible way!' What happened next is beyond description, but I'll  do my best! I'm sitting there alone, Gracie looking on with her head cocked to one side  as if to say, 'Don't do it, dip ****' reasoning that a one-second burst from  such a tiny little thing couldn't possibly hurt all that bad..  I decided to give myself a one-second burst just for the heck of it.  I touched the prongs to my naked thigh, pushed the button and HOLY MOTHER OF  GOD!..WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!!  WHAT THE HELL!!!!!!!!!!! I'm pretty sure that Jessie Ventura ran in through the side door, picked me  up in the recliner, then body slammed us both on the carpet, over and over  and over again. I vaguely recall waking up on my side in the fetal position, with tears in my eyes, body soaking wet, both nipples on fire, testicles nowhere to be  found, with my left arm tucked under my body in the oddest position and  tingling in my legs. The cat was making meowing sounds I had never heard before, clinging to the  picture frame hanging above the fireplace, obviously  in an attempt to avoid  getting slammed by my flopping all over the living  room. Note: If you ever feel compelled to 'mug' yourself with a taser, one note of  caution: there is no such thing as a one-second  burst when you zap yourself!!!!!! You will not let go of that thing until it is dislodged from your hand, by a violent thrashing about on the floor. A three-second burst would be considered conservative. SON-OF-A-BITCH! THAT HURT LIKE HELL!!!!!. A minute or so later (I can't be sure, as time was a relative thing at that point), I collected my wits (what little I had left), sat up and surveyed the landscape.  My bent reading glasses were on the mantel of the fireplace. The recliner was upside down and about 8 feet from where it originally was. My triceps, right thigh and both nipples were still twitching. My face felt like it had been shot up with Novocaineand my bottom lip  weighed 88 lbs. I had no control over my drooling. Apparently I **** myself, but was too numb to know  for sure and sense of  smell was gone. I saw a faint smoke cloud above my head which I believe was coming from my  hair. I'm still looking for my nuts and I'm offering a significant reward for their safe return!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! P.S. My wife loved her gift, and now regularly threatens me with it! If you think Education is difficult, try being stupid.
Reply:Just wear gloves and you will be fine. Thats some nice work there Farmer Sam!!
Reply:Been tingled a time or two.  Only been tingled while replacing a rod without gloves, or if gloves are wet.Got lit up like a Christmas Tree while on a job in MD one time.  I was putting a patch of the side of a sand drying hopper at a "Precision Aggregate Plant".I had to climb the X bracing to get to the hole, holding on with one arm and using that arm to position the patch, tacked the patch, and while welding it all around, it started to rain.  Had about 2" of weld left.  I was bound and determined to finish the weld as I didn't want to climb down and back up.  WRONG..  When I struck the arc with the final rod.  The stinger was thrown from my hand to the ground.  Probably very lucky that happened.  The resulting momentary shock I received prior to the stinger being launched, as the arc struck, wasn't pleasant.Keep your gloves on, shoudn't be a problem.