Keeping 7018 dry

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I don't do a whole lot of stick but when I do I would like to have my rods in usable shape (dry).Without using a rod oven or as Duanne has demonstrated the oven in the kitchen while the wife was out, which wouldn't work as the oven is broke and way down the list of things to be replaced around here (hot water heater was this weekend and the furnace is next on the list not really sure where the oven fits in). Any way back to my question. If I purchase 7018 rod in quantity (lower cost) would repackaging them in quantities (1-2 lbs) using vacuum packaging. I am thinking that the food repackaging systems like they sell at Wal-Mart would work but I have been mistaken once before. If I open the large container how long do I have to get them sealed again? Thanks for any suggestions ideas or picking out any faults in my thought process.
Reply:The question you have to answer yourself is, is it your intent to preserve the 'low hydrogen' characrteristics or do you just want to keep a quantity of a good rod on hand?? The problem with repackaging rods in membranous packages like seal a meal bags is that one slight coincidental bump and you got a hole in the packaging. You've got a raincoat. It'll keep the rain off but any contents are going to be exposed the same humidity as the ambient air.
Reply:Okay so if I use the vacuum sealed packaging and I keep them in a way that they won't get a hole in it will it still maintain the lo-hi or would this just be a waste of time and I would still need to condition the rods.
Reply:I like your trend of thought flatbroke.you would think if the rods aer in a vacuum then the rods couldnt soak up any hydrogen...or anything else.try it out. stick the seales rods in a bucket of water for a few days and then try some welds.then dont forget to let me know the resultsG
Reply:For the rods I use on my farm I put the rods into one of those containers you can buy at harbor freight the container has a O ring between the top and  bottom parts of the container. In the top of the container I put a cloth pouch of that dehumidifier grandules that you can buy at Lowe's or HomeDepot. The stuff works great. Once the stuff has quit working it goes from grandular to solid form.Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:Vacuum sealing would work great if the plastic stayed intact. I would make some 1 lb packs and some larger packs. By buying in quantity I'm assuming you talking a 50 lb box. The lws across the street sells all rod for $12 a 5 lb box or the hardware store has forney's for $17 for 10lb box so I normally use just 2 types of rod 6010 and 7018. By buying small quantities I can charge the whole box out to a job and the left over go into a plastic rod holder. They'll keep untill I use them up. Job requiring 1 or 2 lbs aren't worth charging rod out to. In the situation I'm it's not like a customer getting the shaft. Each project is company owned the boss just want each project itemized out.Tough as nails and damn near as smart
Reply:just paid $38 for 10# forney 7018 the other day at my only LWS.Im on an island, but still WTF!G
Reply:Yes, it will work for most purposes.  I always just kept it in a rod gaurd.  Worked for me.  Oven is nice, but not a necessity unless its going to be X ray quality work.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by specterFor the rods I use on my farm I put the rods into one of those containers you can buy ...has a O ring between the top and  bottom parts of the container.
Reply:Denrep that was the next step if the vacuum seal didn't work. My concern is that with the o ring containers you can put a lot of rod in them and evry time you open it it would allow in moisture with the vacuum you would be able to seal 1 or 2 lbs packages economically where as the tubes you would have to have a bunch of these.
Reply:when the rods are packaged in the factory are they purged with something or are they sealed whith whatever air is in the box?
Reply:Use the big size army ammo cans. I can put three 50# cans and some smaller packs in one can. They close air tight. I think I paid abot ten dollars for them about twenty years ago. Don't know what they cost now.
Reply:The ammo boxes are still available around here for reasonable prices. I got some which are like the 20mm size (for that ammo originally) but are deeper, deep enough to stand the boxes of 14" rod in.  Check out any nearby Gun Shows, or call Army Surplus stores. The first usually has better prices and selection, I'd say.
Reply:My idea here is to retain the lo-hi so how long can the rods be out of the original packaging? If you have a rod oven how long are they good for once removed from said oven. It is my understanding that as soon as you open a container the flux begins to draw moisture and that in turn causes a rise in the hydrogen content and after it reaches a certain threshold they have to be reconditioned. This is what I am trying to avoid that and to save some money by buying in bulk.
Reply:Originally Posted by gordfraserwhen the rods are packaged in the factory are they purged with something or are they sealed whith whatever air is in the box?
Reply:Originally Posted by flatbustedbrokeMy idea here is to retain the lo-hi so how long can the rods be out of the original packaging? If you have a rod oven how long are they good for once removed from said oven. It is my understanding that as soon as you open a container the flux begins to draw moisture and that in turn causes a rise in the hydrogen content and after it reaches a certain threshold they have to be reconditioned. This is what I am trying to avoid that and to save some money by buying in bulk.
Reply:Tresi this is the second winter without it the new ceramic space heaters work well considering that the house is a little less than 800 square feet. Was wondering how the ribs were doing and if you had a structural engineer in to make sure you didn't damage the floor. It is cold already we have ice on everything but the roads right now.Thanks to everyone that replied I think I will try the vacuum seal first even as far as soaking a bag (4 mil is pretty stout plastic) and I will also try purging a o-ring sealed container. I appreciate the responses I get on this site and that almost everyone here has the attitude that we all can learn something new from each other. Again thanks everyone.
Reply:Ribs are healing very well. Brusing is gone. I still get little reminders that it happened. The kid jump on me and that sucked but otherwise not bad. The floor is OK because I kept my head from hitting it. When I lived in Jeff City a vent free natural gas space heater did a really good job heating a 1000 sq ft house. just put a little ceramic cube heater in the kids room.Tough as nails and damn near as smart
Reply:This topic comes around again and again and again.....If you arn't doing work the needs to meet a code or where hydrogen pickup will be a problem, don't worry about it. Keep the rods from exposure to liquid water, try to keep them in a controlled low humidity environment (O-ring can or equivelent) and they will be fine.If you ARE doing work where it matters, the ONLY acceptable option is an oven. The flux is moderately hygroscopic (draws water from the atmosphere), and absorbs it to form a hydrate, like concrete. Once the water in in, it doesn't come out without a cook at much higher temperature than needed to prevent hydration in the first place. The water is chemically bonded in.When do you need to worry? Work to code (AWS, ASME,  Lloyds, ABS, API, etc). Welding steels with higher carbon contents (greater than 20 points. 'Mild steels'/low carbon are less than this.) Heavier sections at any carbon content (greater than 1" weld certainly, greater than 1/2" in some cases. Preheat to 300 deg is a good idea as thickness goes up).Why does it matter? The moisture dissociates to hydrogen and oxygen in the arc. The hydrogen (monatomic at the arc temperature) is quite soluble in the molten metal and in the high temperature structure of the steel, but is less soluble in the low temperature structure of the steel. So, the hydrogen dissolves in the liquid, and is not rejected as the steel freezes. (oversimplification to follow...) When the temperature drops enough for the metal to undergo a phase change (change in crystal structure, in this case), the hydrogen no longer fits well, and ends up trapped at the grain boundries, interfering with the ability of the grains to tie together (end of oversimplification). Preheat helps as the hydrogen can diffuse out of the solid metal, and this occurs faster at higher temperature. By slowing the cooling of the metal, more time is provided for the hydrogen to find the surface and get out rather than collect at the grain boundries. (ok, the oversimplification wasn't quite over)Factory packed rods are hermetically sealed with a dry gas (nitrogen, probably, since it is cheap. I haven't inquired that deeply. The spec is only a dry gas or vacuum), even rods in plastic bags in cardboard boxes. I have a lot more faith in the metal cans not having leaks than in the plastic bags, though, as well as a lot more faith that that the rods were properly packed by the manufacturer, rather than by some schlep in the back of the store, which is why I stick with name brands.
Reply:Enlpck, doesn't higher sulfur steel also require lower hydrogen? I seem to recall that.I've seen small, cheap 'toaster ovens' from stores like Wallgreens which would probably work decently for 'cooking' electrodes; they are hot enough and control the heat fairly well, but aren't too well insulated so use a bit more energy.If you have access to a decent vacuum pump, a 'vacuum chamber' to cook in could be made of 2 -4" dia. pipe, capped at one end and straight threaded w/ an "O" ring for good sealing, on the other. A much lower temperature would remove moisture to the same degree under very reduced pressure.
Reply:Been using these for years, no problems. Attached Images
Reply:Funny thing, the last 50 lb packages of Lincoln 7018 H4MR Excalibur or how ever you speeel it,  came in a cardboard box with no liner.  The 8018 still comes in a metal can.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:An old fridge with a small light bulb left on inside makes good rod storage, or atleast it has worked for me.....JimLincoln Power Mig 255Hobart Stickmate AC/DCMiller AEAD 200LECutmaster 81
Reply:4 hours exposure time is considered acceptable for 7018 electrodes.  You can bump that to 5 hours if the moisture content is less than .40% from the factory (established by a Certificate of Compliance).  Those are the numbers we've established for our ASME/AWS/API QC manuals.
Reply:As said by Supe and enlpck, either factory sealed container or out of the oven for 7018.  'Regular' 7018 is 4 hours exposure to atmosphere max, and then it is supposed to either have been used or it's supposed to go back in the oven for rebake (if allowed).  The moisture-resistant "R" suffix electrodes are rated for use or rebake in 9 hours after removal from the sealed factory container or the oven.  Specific codes MAY be stricter as to exposure time before use, etc.If you -need- low-hydrogen as in 7018, then you really should use it correctly (storage and atmospheric exposure, etc).  If you don't NEED the low-hydrogen properties of the electrode, then just buy and use a different electrode like 6010, 6011, 6013, 7014, 7024, etc.Use the right tool (electrode) for the job at hand, and use the tool 'correctly'.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...Originally Posted by David RYes, it will work for most purposes.  I always just kept it in a rod gaurd.  Worked for me.  Oven is nice, but not a necessity unless its going to be X ray quality work.David
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2Enlpck, doesn't higher sulfur steel also require lower hydrogen? I seem to recall that.I've seen small, cheap 'toaster ovens' from stores like Wallgreens which would probably work decently for 'cooking' electrodes; they are hot enough and control the heat fairly well, but aren't too well insulated so use a bit more energy.If you have access to a decent vacuum pump, a 'vacuum chamber' to cook in could be made of 2 -4" dia. pipe, capped at one end and straight threaded w/ an "O" ring for good sealing, on the other. A much lower temperature would remove moisture to the same degree under very reduced pressure.
Reply:Originally Posted by paweldorBeen using these for years, no problems.
Reply:Let me start by saying I know this is not proper...but, if you're welding and the rod gets damp and you are out in the field. Here's the cool part, just stick the rod until it heats up, you'll see a little puff of steam come off, presto! dry rod.  like I said not proper but it works.- If you can jump across it you can weld it!  - anonymous old boilermaker
Reply:I got tired of damp rods so I build a welding oven. It is 20" X 20" by 26" tall. I drilled 1/2" holes throughout the 3 shelves installed. It is well insulated with thick heat resistant reflecting insulation. I installed a 200 watt heat lamp (bulb). It was 18 degrees outside yesterday morning inside the pole barn. Inside the oven it was 112 degrees. It makes a big different- even if the rods are only 112 degrees. And of course as it gets warmer outside the inside of the oven temp also rises.
Reply:Originally posted by enlpck:As to a vacuum chamber, no dice. Vacuum WILL NOT help dehydrate rods. The water is chemically bonded into the flux forming a hydrate, and the ONLY thing that will release it is sufficient thermal energy to break the bonds (oversimplification of mechanism, but not oversimplifying the requirement). At lower temperature than recommended, the rod will dry, but the time goes up greatly (roughly, an exponential function describes the relation. More complicated than that, but good enough for a guide) A little air circulation WILL help remove the evolved moisture.
Reply:I have one of those blue packs with the p ring and it seems to work pretty good.  I've accidentally welded an xray joint with about 4 or 5 contaminated rods.  The only thing you'll really notice I find is cold starts, and porosity on starts.  Unless you can tell the flux is damp, u wouldn't worry about it too much.