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If I ever get this GODDAMN BRACKET done it's gonna be a miracle.This is one that was cut apart to redo because of arc blow problems.  N0T THE ONE IN A PREVIOUS POST.Cut it apart, ground off the weld on the machined part, cut a new piece of plate to weld it to.  Clamped it to another piece of flat, welded, AND THE GODDAMN METAL CRACKED.  NOT THE WELD...........THE METALIT CRACKED PERFECTLY, LIKE IT HAD BEEN CUT OR MACHINEDHas ANYBODY ever had this happen???????????????????One cracked immediately after being welded, and the other cracked with a few good whacks with a hammer$%$$##$@!*&^%$@#% Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Looks like it's been cut with a stinkin' acetylene torch"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I'm guessing there was no preheat, and that steel probably has a higher carbon content than you thought.
Reply:If those last two pictures show the 'cracked edge', I'd guess the piece you  used already had the cut in it and somebody had once welded it together just on the surface, getting no penetration at all. The surface would have no fumes or rust deposited on it if the crack hadn't been pre-existing. Or tool marks!Last edited by Oldiron2; 03-06-2009 at 02:14 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2If those last two pictures show the 'cracked edge', I'd guess the piece you  used already had the cut in it and somebody had once welded it together just on the surface, getting no penetration at all. The surface would have no fumes or rust deposited on it if the crack hadn't been pre-existing. Or tool marks!
Reply:Craziest thing I ever saw.I'll take a pic later of how it was supposed to be, and how it was clamped.  As far as I can tell, there was no restraint on the joint where it cracked.I'm so pissed off that I locked everything up, and I'm gonna take the rest of the day to sit in the sun sippin' suds and contemplate my problems"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI'm gonna take the rest of the day to sit in the sun sippin' suds and contemplate my problems
Reply:Oh hell Samm!Superglue it. #1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:Bevel it out and do a beveled fillet on both sides.  Full penetration should hold it on there.  MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Those pieces with the holes in them were welded as fillet welds to the long plate?As mentioned, they were sometime previously cut apart and barely welded back together.  As evidenced by the machine marks and rust and such on them on the 'inside'.DR33, he needs to bevel them out and do a GROOVE weld (butt weld) to put the mounting lug ears back together with the pieces still welded (via fillet welds  ) to the flate plate.  If he removes the still attached pieces from the flat plate and then puts the beveled lugs/ears onto the flate plate, then he is doing fillet welds.Samm,Whack the pieces with a big hammer before going further, just to make sure there are no other 'surprises' in the steel pieces.  Let out some of your anger and frustration.  Wear eye and ear protection though.    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Samm.Whoever machined this part for you is resposible for that...unless you "machined" it for yourself.  I think what happened, by the way it looks, someone ran out of material and welded it  together and ground it smooth to make a single piece.  And from the looks of it, they put a partime high school student on it to get some training.Now,  it either that or at the factory, someone welded it together to complete a short piece on the end of the day.Very interesting....Are you sure you weren't using "beer" vision when you were doing that and did it with out remembering?BTW, that looks like a plasma cut.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Provided a short decrease in the length of the bracket ears won't create a problem with whatever they mount to or support, I would grind all that muck off the flat plate (or just start with a fresh piece of flat plate and recycle that one), bevel both sides of each bracket and do a beveled fillet on each side of each bracket.   You really don't know what all is underneath all those welds on the flat plate.  Doing a butt weld to that mess might result in another failure some time down the road.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:The sun was great, the beer was even GREATERTook some pics of how the thing was meant to be, and how it was clamped while welding.  Everything is exactly as it was.  I even put the damn metal back on to the place it cracked.  Perfect fit.Never experienced this in over 12yrs. of making stuff.  It might be a function of the increased tensile strength of the 7018.  Always used 6013 until recently.The parts with the machined holes were cleaned up after cutting the original weldment apart.  They're the only thing left from the original thing.  The long piece of plate is new.Standard A-36 mild steel.Uprights...1/2" plateLong piece...3/8 platePiece that it's/was clamped to..... 1/2 plateThe only thing that I can figure that by restricting the movement of the base plate, the stress had nowhere to go but into the upright pieces with the holes in 'em.  But the clamping should not have restricted movement that much.  It was, after all, just clamped to a piece of plate.  The plate should have moved.About preheat.  It's a pretty small  mass.  And there were a series of welds all done at different places(12 in all, it's a built up weld).  No welds were done back to back.  I skipped around in order to let stuff cool.  And the interpass heat shouldn't have made pre/post heat unecessary.  Or maybe notSomethin' for the X Files Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:When originally cut apart I used the OA to get rid of the welds.  Could I have made a weird HAZ??Mild steel supposedly doesn't have a HAZ (I think??)"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Samm,That absolutely was some sort of mechanically made cut and re weld, then grind job.  Nothing else. If you paid someone for that then go get yo' money.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:When I cut apart the original weldment I didn't use water to cool it, it just cooled down in air.  Had lunch at the time, then came back to grind off what was left of the welds after gouging them with the torchThis is F'n weird"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Lugweld--- I'm the machine shop.  The machining was limited to boring the hole.  Had nothing to do with the edge that cracked.  Look at the original pics, it cracked exactly above where it was welded, and in a perfect line"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:What's left on the flat plate is part of the upright ears.  Exactly the height of the weldLast edited by farmersamm; 03-06-2009 at 07:21 PM.Reason: height"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:This is my theory-It looks to me that because the welds holding the brackets to themselves where they had been previously cut were so small, when the welds you put in cooled and tried to 'pull' the brackets toward the plate in both directions, those skinny welds broke.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:What we're all tryin to say Samm, is that 'crack' is not a straight-through crack like you think it is.  Look at the surface of it.  No crack comes out that straight, flat and even, all throughout it's length and depth, on two seperate pieces of metal, no less.  It's a cut, that was welded together with practicaly no penetration, and cracked through the skinny welds holding the cut pieces together.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:You will probly see this much clearer tomorrow after the beer is gone....MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:DR33, I'm with you on all counts!        Thats 3 six packs But I lost count after  a "few in the sun"  Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:BULLSH!TDidn't just fall offa a beet truck from BoiseThese are closeups taken within 1 inch of the fracture.  Hell, I know what I'm seein' but I want to know why it happened.  The break is absolutely perfect Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:If it were a break, it would look crystallized.I had beets with my dinner.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Farmersamm,  I am going to step out on the limb and take a shot at this. What it appears happened, IMHO, is that when the brackets were cut off, they were cut off in a downward cut away from, not into the bracket. This would result in a piece on the end of the bracket the thickness of the plate. Then these pieces were ground flush. Now when welded, the fillet weld only consumes the bottom piece (which is actually the original plate) and the original joint is right above the new fillet. With the original rienforcement gone, and the area heated as a result of the second weld, it resulted in the fracture. In short terms, the plate did not fail. The original joint did. Check the bracket after failure and I would guess that it might be the right length. jrw159Maybe a fatigue break would look crystalized"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Another real world angle of the damage, in real time, and really damn confusin'Really!! Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Samm.For saftey's sake, I wouldn't reuse that. The last picture made it clear.  Either that thing was cut and welded and ground smooth at the factory or there is something going on with the metal.  That is nearly impossible to happen otherwise...But if it did,  there is no reason it won't do it again?  Have 'tried' out the other rewelded part yet.  Its funny that both did it exactly alike at the same place.  Were they cut from the same stock?  Were they back to back pieces.   I would save that and send it off for analysis.  You have one for the welding manuals.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Samm, is it possible that the last guess is correct? That you didn't 'disassemble' the first 'job' by gouging out the welds, but rather cut straight down from the top, leaving sections of the bottom plate still attached, then ground it all flat?? And then forgot it??? If you are doing this by a written plan and have dimensions, the upright pieces with holes  should still be the same length as when first cut, but if they really broke, they should be shorter. Could this really just be a Friday Quiz by Professor Samm???Last edited by Oldiron2; 03-06-2009 at 09:22 PM.
Reply:Your close-up pics of the 'break' confirm it even more in my mind.  That is not a straight through fracture.  There is weld smoke, spatter and slag inside that 'crack'.  If it truely was a 'crack' through un-welded plate, there could not possibly be weld smoke, spatter or slag in there.   That was 2 plates butt welded with a small enough gap to allow spatter and smoke in but not nearly enough gap to allow any appreciable penetration from either of the butt welds that were done on both sides.   The slag is what dripped down through the bottom of the weld.You don't have some weird metallurgical UFO experience going on here with the metal.  You just have a dopey butt weld job done at some point in the past that gave up the alien ghost after you put in the fillet welds.Last edited by DesertRider33; 03-06-2009 at 09:06 PM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:LOL, I think this is the weekend sobriety test.   How many cracks am I holding up??MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:In your first pics, the one looks just like it had been cut with an abrasive saw and then cleaned up, the other looking at the bottom of the top piece where it sheered, it looks as if it was cut with a plasma cutter with the bottom piece from it ground smooth!Both look like they have almost perfect dimensions of cut!If this wasn't the case, then that is one hellofa coincidence, and definitely one for the books!#1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:Samm,You sure the brews came after the weld broke.Sure you wern't trying to do some of that "newfangled plasma welding" with an 80A cutter instead of a 7018 rod.Looks almost too clean to have previously been torch cut.  Had to have been done with a saw or a plasma cutter.That's definitely a new one.  Send it out for analysis.  Be interesting to hear what they find.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Hell, I'm feelin' like maybe I'm seein' things.  But goddamnit it happened, and I goddamn know it happened.Some pics of the old plate and how it was cut away from the salvaged parts with drilled hole.  The cuts weren't too close to the plate, almost on the edge of the existing weld.I wondered about the **** inside the broken part.  It looks like there was heat there.  Even a few little dingle balls.  Could the metal have been cracked, and the rod put heat thru the crack??.    And how in the Hell could it happen to two identical parts in the identical damn place??????????I gotta figure out what happened, and make sure it doesn't happen again.  Like I said, it took a few healthy swings with a hammer to make the other piece crack after I discovered the first crack.  This **** could go unnoticed and make for some real problems.ALFRED, KICK THE BOSS IN THE A$$ AND GET HIM OUTTA THE BAR TO DEAL WITH THIS!!!!!!!!!!  I NEED SOME DAMN HELP Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Just a little bit more Samm, the light is starting to energize, you're almost there...MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Desert......... Dunno man, the only thing that occurred was cutting the original weldment apart, per previous pics.  Tha damn cuts weren't in the area of the plate that cracked.  The welds were ground down.**** I dunnoMore pics.  This **** wasn't cut by a torch, plasma, or machine tool.  WTF happenedAnd why did it occur exactly above the weld.  You can see the remnants of the wash in to cover the undercut. Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:What are the odds? Two square pieces, 4 edges each. Two of the eight edges have hidden defects.Both pieces get welded on the defective edge.A butterfly without wings, is just an ugly bug
Reply:Re construction of original piece after cutting from post 34.Is this what the consensis is?A butterfly without wings, is just an ugly bug
Reply:Add a cut line going accross from each upper toe line of the fillets and erase the cut lines into the horizontal plate and the drawing will resemble the weldment Samm showed in the pics.I still maintain, those are NOT crack failures through the thickness of those plates, those are cuts.  The crack failures occurred in the insufficient welds along each side of the cuts, which happened to be right at the upper toe lines of the fillets.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Nice drawing. Now I understand the theory and it gets my vote. 9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250
Reply:Post those pics on the AWS site, see if you can get a CWI there to give his opinion.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:I agree with jrw159!!  Well Sam tomorrow is another day to fix today's problems, good luck with it. I know you'll get it done. I'll be waiting on the pics.Miller Thunderbolt 225Millermatic 130 XPLincoln HD 100 Forney C-5bt Arc welderPlasma Cutter Gianteach Cut40ACent Machinery Bandsaw Cent Machinery 16Speed Drill PressChicago Electric 130amp tig/90 ArcHobart 190 Mig spoolgun ready
Reply:Originally Posted by jrw159Farmersamm,  I am going to step out on the limb and take a shot at this. What it appears happened, IMHO, is that when the brackets were cut off, they were cut off in a downward cut away from, not into the bracket. This would result in a piece on the end of the bracket the thickness of the plate. Then these pieces were ground flush. Now when welded, the fillet weld only consumes the bottom piece (which is actually the original plate) and the original joint is right above the new fillet. With the original rienforcement gone, and the area heated as a result of the second weld, it resulted in the fracture. In short terms, the plate did not fail. The original joint did. Check the bracket after failure and I would guess that it might be the right length. jrw159
Reply:Samm, were these pieces cut from the same flat bar stock?  Reason I ask is, I have received full bar length material from my steel supplier that has been welded.  What happens is when the steel mill is doing a run, hot steel is run through the forming rollers and never stops moving.  Once the material reaches the desired length it is automatically sheared, continues moving down the line as the next length approaches the shear.  Sometimes, there will be a "short" length coming through.  Steel mills WILL weld a section on to come up with the desired length and then grind the welds.  Some Mills "flash weld" the add on length.  Most of the time you can't tell where these "add on's" are, but I've had some come in (mostly imported steel) that were really obvious.It's possible, you cut your brackets from one or two of these "repaired" bars, pretty close to the Mill's weld.  Bound to fail. I agree with many.  You can see flame cut marks on one ear, but not the piece it was attached to.  The other you can see cut off saw marks.Best to replace those pieces.  Good Luck.
Reply:Better graphic Attached ImagesLast edited by Magnetic Mechanic; 03-07-2009 at 11:37 AM.Reason: part of pic missingA butterfly without wings, is just an ugly bug
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33Post those pics on the AWS site, see if you can get a CWI there to give his opinion.
Reply:The problem I see with post 45 is that if it is correct then there was no penetration on the original welds.And Sam needs to finish welding before hitting the beerLast edited by Magnetic Mechanic; 03-07-2009 at 11:47 AM.Reason: addA butterfly without wings, is just an ugly bug
Reply:Samm I have to agree the most likely thing appears what Magnetic Mechanic drew.I keep looking at that one ear that looks flame cut and dont see a matching set of marks on the base piece. If it cracked they should match perfectly. Each high spot on the ear should have an exact match on the base. The picts don't show that. the base looks too smooth to line up witth those heavy cut marks.Magnetic Mechanic what program did you use to do that sketch?
Reply:Autocadediting was done with Picture publisherA butterfly without wings, is just an ugly bug
Reply:Hey Magnetic, and allMagnetic, you're drawing is wrong.  The crack occured exactly ABOVE the fillet weld on both pieces.  What's left on the base plate is the remainder of the upright after the largest part cracked off. Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/