Those that can do those that cant teach !

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That saying is definitly true.  I seriously cant wait to get out of school to start learning from those on the job.In school today we started Flux Cored welding.  I thought we were using straight flux cored wire no gas sheilding required.  So I couldnt get a good weld at all.  Finally talked to my instructor and he asks if I have the gas on. and im like huh,  I thought this is flux cored the type that requires no gas sheilding.  My instructor then tells me that all flux cored wire will not run very good without sheilding gas.  He also told me hes never used straight flux cored wire anywhere hes worked !I left scratching my head,  once I got home I looked at my copy of the Lincoln Procedure of Arc welding hand book.  I found that there are lots of different Flux cored wires that do not require gas but the one I was using today requires gas.Im definitly starting to think those who teach definitly cant do.  This is my second instructor who has appeared to not know his job well !
Reply:Try Teaching.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:sounds like you don't need any schooling to begin with. good luck
Reply:Who would want to teach.  My instructors have told me what they earn.  They earn a lot less than a weldor in a shop around here !As far as the post goes had to vent a little had a bad day.  Which was made worse when the instructor couldnt be found !  Do I think all welding instructors are bad.  Nah  I dont think the 2 at the school im at are that great though !
Reply:Originally Posted by Newfie_1986Who would want to teach.  My instructors have told me what they earn.  They earn a lot less than a weldor in a shop around here !As far as the post goes had to vent a little had a bad day.  Which was made worse when the instructor couldnt be found !  Do I think all welding instructors are bad.  Nah  I dont think the 2 at the school im at are that great though !
Reply:I totally agree with you Broccoli1 !  Thats why I came back and replied.  My new instructor is a lot better than my first one (he used to hide out a lot more).  It would make one wonder why he didnt know about Innershield though ?  Which is what I thought we were using.  If I had to have had the Procedure handbook with me I could have looked up how the wire was supposed to be ran.  He didnt tell us and I assumed it was regular flux core with no external shielding required !I would have asked how it was supposed to be ran but he was no where to be found.  He eventually came to me and straightened me out.Oh and Dual Shield kicks butt.  Way easier to run vertical than solid wire !Last edited by Newfie_1986; 10-23-2008 at 06:38 PM.
Reply:Well stick around.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:I plan to stick around.  I have been signed up here since 2005 havent been very vocal though.  In the future once I get to know what im at I will be sure to add advice and tips for people on here.  Maybe even show some photos of my work.
Reply:wow, pretty harsh coming from a student, glad you came back though, shows class. sorry to head about your other instructors and as a fellow instructor that embarrasses me as i take great pride in my teaching. but truth be told, we are fast running out of good, quality instructors as i hear similar stories like yours from new students every trimester. and i tell ya, trying to keep up with all the welding advancements in order to show others is hard to do as just knowing how to do something isn't good enough, you have to be able to explain the why behind it and be able to back it to get/keep today's students respect. and then there's the money part, or lack of cause you do this for love not money. but the reward is so much greater when you see students 'get it' and watch them turn from way over their head to very good welders. glad you hung in there and hope your new instructor works out for ya.johnjohnwelding instructorwww.williamrmoore.orgMooreTech College of Technologywelder/fabricatorJGWilson, Inc.www.jgwilson.com
Reply:Hello Newfie,As with welders, instructors probably have varying degrees of experience and expertise. I have been a welder or somehow associated with welding since around 1980. My HS welding instructor did not know how to run FCAW or GMAW uphill, he couldn't put a root in a pipe, couldn't weld in a mirror, or a number of other things. The one thing that he did do was show interest in teaching me.I have wanted to be a teacher for MANY years. Mainly because of that dear friend in Memphis who was my welding instructor. At that time while I was in HS I could make $7.50 an hour after school working part time. I imagine I made awful close to what my instructor made.I have since wanted to teach but even with 25+ years of experience I do not meet the "requirements" of my state to be able to teach a HS student how to weld. Its possible that instructors are picked in various ways.Some good, some bad.The one thing I didn't want to be if I ever got a job as a welding instructor was that old guy that told stories about all that had been done or could be done but never showed anyone how to do it. However more importantly I wanted to be someone that could get the students interested in welding. It appears you have that interest. Don't sell your instructor short. He may only know about one part of welding but that may be the part you find you enjoy the best and decide to do as a career.Though I have welded for almost 30 years (started at 15) I realize I can learn something from anyone. I have been blessed with the job of teaching a night class for a community college. I have no "formal" teaching experience. There very well may be plenty of things your instructor could teach ME.Gerald AustinIuka, MissLast edited by gaustin; 10-24-2008 at 04:07 PM.Reason: Added las paragraph.Have a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:There are good and bad in every occupation, don't get trapped into knocking a whole class of people down because of a couple bad seeds .....Why somebody would want to teach .......   uhh,,,, maybe they've spent many years doing the hard physical stuff, are in a position to "retire" from that job, then take a second job????   Maybe the stability and the benefits are better?????   Many years ago, I asked this of my physics/chem teacher at high school, had degrees up the azz ......   "Anybody can engineer a building, I get more satisfaction teaching young minds"  or words to that effect.   Anyhow, not that they can't, just other priorities.
Reply:I can't do chit very well. Perhaps I should just teach what I can't do!  -MondoMember, AWSLincoln ProMIG 140Lincoln AC TombstoneCraftsman Lathe 12 x 24 c1935Atlas MFC Horizontal MillCraftsman Commercial Lathe 12 x 36 c1970- - - I'll just keep on keepin' on.
Reply:Oh by the way guys this is a college setting not High school.Umm so any of you guys have any suggestions on welding overhead with Dual Shield ?  I could not weld overhead worth a crap until today (with any process) when it hit me that I brace myself in all other positions but not overhead.  My only problem is when I brace myself I tend to end up burned.I tend to rest my left hand on the piece im welding and use it to stabilize the gun as I slide it along and weld but this leads to burned up gloves / hands.  Should I just look at getting a better pair of gloves ???Thanks
Reply:You think you have problems with teachers, just wait until your working and you learn that the company you work for must have a secret screw up move up policy. Somebody that keeps screwing up moves up to a job where he can't do any damage, usually a desk job and you're still slaving away at a lower pay grade because you can do what he can't.Tough as nails and damn near as smart
Reply:Originally Posted by Newfie_1986Finally talked to my instructor and he asks if I have the gas on. and im like huh,  I thought this is flux cored the type that requires no gas sheilding.  My instructor then tells me that all flux cored wire will not run very good without sheilding gas.  He also told me hes never used straight flux cored wire anywhere hes worked !
Reply:Originally Posted by Newfie_1986Who would want to teach.  My instructors have told me what they earn.  They earn a lot less than a weldor in a shop around here !
Reply:Well I dont want to do junkyard welding thats for sure.  But my understanding of why innershield was developed was for welding outdoors when other wires would not work due to wind.  Isnt innershield commonly used in shipyards, structural and such ?  Or is stick usedNah my first instructor didnt know his job well.  The new one had to straighten all of us out on a few things like welding vertical up.  Our old instructor told us to weld it cold.
Reply:for me, the benefit of teaching is watching students 'get it', watching them turn into real welders, watching them graduate and then get jobs. knowing they are going to be a real asset to somebody cause you taught them everything you know, and they learned it. my students like my class cause even after all my years, i still get excited talking about and showing welding. they see the passion, the excitement, it's all still there for me and directly affects them. if i'm excited, they get excited! they deserve nothing less.now as for the fcaw topic, i did not use that process nor do i use that process in my welding career, i had to learn it when i started instructing. that's just one of the reasons why instructing is hard, you need to learn sooo many processes, and with today's young adults, just knowing isn't enough, you gotta be proficient at to get their respect. and depending on my class i have students on stick, mig, tig, oxy-fuel all in one class (not to mention on different positions) and you jump from one to the other to the other. instructing is not for everyone as a lot can weld, but have a hard time explaining it so they don't teach it. me, i actually chose instructing when offered. sure i could make a lot more and turn down offers each year cause the reward for instructing to me is greater then a fat wallet. and without us who's gonna teach the next generation?johnjohnwelding instructorwww.williamrmoore.orgMooreTech College of Technologywelder/fabricatorJGWilson, Inc.www.jgwilson.com
Reply:Join the Army kid, then you'll get an up clse and personal look at a whole bunch of instructors that not only can, but have done, for years before going into teaching.JTMcC.
Reply:The whole reason I wanted to teach was to pass on the info that I learned through the years.I just attended Lincoln's basic and advanced motorsports welding classes in Cleveland Ohio.I had Karl Hoes as my instructor and he was great. Me and another instructor were down there for 2 weeks, and we were treated like gold. I felt like part of the family.We work at a large Tech college in Alberta, Canada. Welding is taken very serious here.We have 30 welding instructors. The course that we took was geared toward the TIG specialist for sure, but I learned a ton about good instructing too.We got to meet people like Dave Barton and Dennis Clingman who are very much into welding, and it shows. The place is a wealth of knowledge with some of the nicest people.It is the only other place I have been that is as serious about training as the college that employs me.That trip was worth it's weight in gold for me. Since our city is hosting the 2009 world skills, I am planning on returning the favor to some of the people at Lincoln when they are in town.There are good and less good instructors everywhere. I say thank them for taking the pay cut and the very large majority of them for the passion they pass on to the next generation.Welders are not getting any younger, we need all the help we can get.A big thumbs up to the team at Lincoln Electric. Karl Hoes, Alex Tocco,etc.I recommend anybody to attend the motorsports class there.
Reply:Glad to see there are a lot of instructors out there who care about their students.   This new instructor does care.  You can see the expression on his face when our welds bend or break !  My only reasoning for questioning his ability is the fact that he said Running Dual Shield with no Gas gives you the same type of weld Innershield gives (a globby mess is what I got with Dualshield no gas).Otherwise hes been good.  Hes straightened us all out on some things our other instructor was wrong about.   Which has made my welds look a lot nicer !
Reply:Originally Posted by JTMcCJoin the Army kid, then you'll get an up clse and personal look at a whole bunch of instructors that not only can, but have done, for years before going into teaching.JTMcC.
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidI haven't either, and I've been welding for over 20 years.  If you want to do junkyard welding for a living, or weld body panels on cars, get good at the flux core without gas.  If you want to do more important work, and make more money, learn the type that requires gas.Perhaps it's not an issue of him not knowing his job, but one of you not knowing what the welding for a living is like yet.  Don't be so harsh on your instructor.  If you wonder about things like this he says, don't jump to conclusions.  Check them out first.  You may find your instructor knows a lot more than you currently think.
Reply:Originally Posted by Newfie_1986Oh by the way guys this is a college setting not High school.Umm so any of you guys have any suggestions on welding overhead with Dual Shield ?  I could not weld overhead worth a crap until today (with any process) when it hit me that I brace myself in all other positions but not overhead.  My only problem is when I brace myself I tend to end up burned.I tend to rest my left hand on the piece im welding and use it to stabilize the gun as I slide it along and weld but this leads to burned up gloves / hands.  Should I just look at getting a better pair of gloves ???Thanks
Reply:Thanks weldrwomnOur instructor has told us to push instead of pull because it makes it easier to see !  I think I have a better idea now how to prop my arms to keep them steady.  Overhead has been giving me hell since starting the course.  Im almost finished now though !Originally Posted by Fat BastardExcuse me while I slap Mr. Engloid around a bit.What a lode of horse dung that statement is!Your statement shows a surprising lacking of common sense, or is it ignorance?Many a fine welder make a nice living burning gas less wire, building (literally) America.
Reply:Nice post JT. The job I'm currently on has 6 welders welding Esab Coreshield 8. Everyone of them crossed the $100,000 mark in September. Thats not counting the $16.25 benefits package.
Reply:Originally Posted by spuddownNice post JT. The job I'm currently on has 6 welders welding Esab Coreshield 8. Everyone of them crossed the $100,000 mark in September. Thats not counting the $16.25 benefits package.
Reply:Ya, your payin to much. That flux off Coreshield 8 or 232 is nasty, I usally wear a respirator. It does run nice, although I prefer NR 203 with 1% Nickle if I have a lot of verticle stuff. Things sure are booming. I've had 4 days off since the 21st of June.
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardExcuse me while I slap Mr. Engloid around a bit.What a lode of horse dung that statement is!Your statement shows a surprising lacking of common sense, or is it ignorance?Many a fine welder make a nice living burning gas less wire, building (literally) America.
Reply:There are guys on boilermaker jobs welding with FCAW making good money. There are guys welding stainless sinks together for 9.00 an hour. It depends more on the industry.Have a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:[QUOTE=Engloid;221434]There's quite a few people that make a nice living as garbage collectors also.  How common are those high paying garbage collecting jobs?QUOTE]I can say this, the high paying flux core jobs are very common. Anywhere there is millwright work, ironwork, pile work, as Gaustin said boilermaker work, on and on it goes.Guys who can make code welds with 232 can almost write their own ticket today. Flux core is also used a lot in pipe fab shops, structural fab shops and in equipment manufacturing. A lot of those jobs still pay well. As has been said several times now, a 232/233/203Ni welder in the construction trades is making well over 100k in a busy year, plus his health insurance and pension. JTMcC.
Reply:Ya but we have to get dirty JT. Not only that we have to weld outside sometimes. This is the first time I've been compared to a garbage collector though. Can't say as it bothers me. I've never looked down on anyone willing to get out and make a living, no matter what they decide to do.
Reply:Originally Posted by spuddownYa but we have to get dirty JT. Not only that we have to weld outside sometimes. This is the first time I've been compared to a garbage collector though. Can't say as it bothers me. I've never looked down on anyone willing to get out and make a living, no matter what they decide to do.
Reply:Exactly, it's not sitting on a stool at a table in an air conditioned/heated building. That should be made plain.It's outdoors work, in the elements, in all weather, and the work is difficult at times. But there are a lot of us who love working outside. I had an inside job once and to me it was like being in prison. Some people love that other type of work, sitting at a bench tigging small parts. It's all good honest work but don't dog on the grimey Pile Buck you see at the gas station on the way home, he's probably hit a good lick for his days work.I'll add that in my work in the trades, the vast majority of hands in these fields REALLY enjoy their work, and take pride in what they build, not all but most.Most pipeliners, more than any, but other trades as well, consider their work a lifestyle, chosen because they enjoy it. My kids used to ask me if I "had" to go to work tomorrow, I told them that I "get" to go to work tomorrow. I couldn't imagine doing work I didn't enjoy.JTMcC.
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidI'd hope you have more skill than a garbage collector.
Reply:The head guy at the dump here makes a salary of $98.000 a year. Then has a hefty pension and insurance and 3 weeks a year vacation. The guy riding the back of the truck turning cans makes $28.25 plus benefits. Of course He's kind of a low life cause he only gets a 2 week paid vacation. Kinda hard to look down on these guys
Reply:Engloid,I have to agree with  Fat Bastard on FCAW-S (innershield). It is not for junkyards. Almost all structural steel field work is welded with this process. It out deposits SMAW and has the ability to make welds with the low impact values easily in all positions. Every large structural job I've been on, from high-rises to major sports arenas have been welded with FCAW-G.
Reply:Meanwhile....back to who's teaching.....Around here, the high schools closed  the trade programs such as auto mechanics a few decades ago because 'everyone should be able/needs to go to college'. I have finally realized why the school administrators 'believe' that. They now start sending the kindergarten classes to watch gay marriages, they teach the first and second grades that Columbus was "Bad", they start teaching third graders about AIDS and immunizing those girls against STD's, they try to get the fourth through sixth graders out campaigning for 'More Money for the Schools' every time there is a bond measure or a proposition which benefits the Teachers Association (not the good teachers, though).....until.....when the students finally "Graduate [from] High School", they still can't add or subtract, read or write correctly, or even talk without repeating "like", "ahhh",  "you know", "i mean", "like um...That is why they Must all go to college--to learn these basic skills which the lower schools didn't have time for or didn't 'feel' like teaching.Also, in the whole Bay Area, I think there is now only one school, the College of San Mateo, which has a welding program.The classes there used to be recommended by the LWS in this area whenever anyone asked about learning the trade. It used to be considered a great program, but the one excellent man who ran the program has left so things may have changed a bit.
Reply:Your world sounds truly horrible! I'm glad thing are much better here in the USA.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2Also, in the whole Bay Area, I think there is now only one school, the College of San Mateo, which has a welding program.The classes there used to be recommended by the LWS in this area whenever anyone asked about learning the trade. It used to be considered a great program, but the one excellent man who ran the program has left so things may have changed a bit.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2Meanwhile....back to who's teaching......
Reply:Wow I cant believe I missed this threadGaustin,revhard,Johnmore, paweldor and all you other guys out there I enjoyed reading your posts.I just went and visited a tech school here near Nashville inquiring about a Machinist course today.  I was very impressed with the instructor and his eagerness.   I think it does take a gifted person to do what they do.   I think I see how they might get satisfaction out of it.    ....     I know not welding but still .... weld it like you own it
Reply:Originally Posted by qaqcEngloid,I have to agree with  Fat Bastard on FCAW-S (innershield). It is not for junkyards. Almost all structural steel field work is welded with this process. It out deposits SMAW and has the ability to make welds with the low impact values easily in all positions. Every large structural job I've been on, from high-rises to major sports arenas have been welded with FCAW-G.
Reply:Originally posted by JTMcC:Conversations amungst humans evolve.
Reply:Engloid,It's not a matter of learning a higher skill. It's a matter of the right tool for the job. Tig will not have the deposition of FCAW. If you have (32) 1" thick, 16" long full pen, x-ray/UT welds per floor, 25+ floors, you will not want to tig them. You'll get run off the job if you try, not to mention the WPS' will probably not be approved to begin with. I'm glad you know how to tig, it's just not always the best answer.
Reply:OldIron,That "one excellent man" at College of San Mateo would have been Professor Lou DeFreitas, I had the honor of attending one of his two day seminars back in '94.  I don't think there is a person on the face of the earth who knew more about welding stainless steel.Regards, KbnitI r 2 a perfessional
Reply:I think that the trades as a whole have been looked down upon by the educational system, student, parents, and others. I think education is VERY valuable however that education can be gained in numerous ways. Some can be learned in schools, some in the bathroom, some on t he job, some from your parents and who knows how many other locations.I see high schools shutting down vocational programs and community colleges opening them . WHY. Education is a business in my opinion. Some teachers may be in it to "have a job". Others may be in it because of the desire to share their experience with others.Our school system is interested in quotas and test scores and giving everyone a "warm fuzzy". Does a high school look good if everyone their graduats goes to work with a higher than normal wage or do they look better if all of their students go on to some other type of education.If I could get ahold of a 15 or 16 year old for 2 to 3 hours a day for 2 or 3 years he could get out and make some GOOD money. I know a class would be full of 9 other students that dont care about welding. They probably dont care about math, english, or science either. At least something may by chance "slip in" from a welding class that will give that person somewhere to start.I have seen instructors who truly loved welding and teaching. I have also seen some that were in other trades, retired, and went into teaching welding. They may have different abilities but I think a true love of the trade(s) and a desire to teach is the most valuable thing you can get in an instructor. Though the skillset is important, much of that can be overcome by having the ability to motivate someone else to learn.I may have mentioned it earlier but I am tickled by the fact that I am not qualified in the state of Mississippi to teach welding in a High School however I can teach it for a community college that offers the very degree I need to teach in the public education system.Have a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by gaustinI think that the trades as a whole have been looked down upon by the educational system, student, parents, and others. I think education is VERY valuable however that education can be gained in numerous ways. Some can be learned in schools, some in the bathroom, some on t he job, some from your parents and who knows how many other locations.I see high schools shutting down vocational programs and community colleges opening them . WHY. Education is a business in my opinion. Some teachers may be in it to "have a job". Others may be in it because of the desire to share their experience with others.Our school system is interested in quotas and test scores and giving everyone a "warm fuzzy". Does a high school look good if everyone their graduats goes to work with a higher than normal wage or do they look better if all of their students go on to some other type of education.If I could get ahold of a 15 or 16 year old for 2 to 3 hours a day for 2 or 3 years he could get out and make some GOOD money. I know a class would be full of 9 other students that dont care about welding. They probably dont care about math, english, or science either. At least something may by chance "slip in" from a welding class that will give that person somewhere to start.I have seen instructors who truly loved welding and teaching. I have also seen some that were in other trades, retired, and went into teaching welding. They may have different abilities but I think a true love of the trade(s) and a desire to teach is the most valuable thing you can get in an instructor. Though the skillset is important, much of that can be overcome by having the ability to motivate someone else to learn.I may have mentioned it earlier but I am tickled by the fact that I am not qualified in the state of Mississippi to teach welding in a High School however I can teach it for a community college that offers the very degree I need to teach in the public education system.
Reply:don't feel bad gaustin, i too am not qualified to teach in high school in Tn, but am qualified to teach in trade/community college?! crazy world. another thing to look at is how we are teaching our kids. aren't most kids told by their dad's that they want them to have a better life and not have to do what we do, to go to college, etc. they hear that all their lives from parents, teachers, friends. that very saying demeans the job we do as being beneath them and if they do have to do this then they feel like they failed in the real world. i know i heard it and i bet most of you did as well. but i'm proud of what i do cause i know the skill one needs to be a complete welder, and i'm proud to be able to pass that skill on to others thru instructing. so i teach my kids to be proud in whatever they decide to do, be it a trade or college or both. and i teach my students to be proud of the skill they are learning cause fellas, the last welding generation is retiring and we don't have enough in this generation to fill and carry on the torch. so i'm very excited to see the interest in welding over the past 2 years, we need it!johnjohnwelding instructorwww.williamrmoore.orgMooreTech College of Technologywelder/fabricatorJGWilson, Inc.www.jgwilson.com