Unique Situation or not?

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Here's the challenge. I have a 3/8"thick x 36' deep steel tube in the ground. I have very limited access from the top. Possibly a 5" x 12" opening to gain access into the steel tube. I have a leak in the steel tube approx. 28' down which appears to be a hole between 1/2" to 1" in diameter. Running from an underground aquifer is coming through the hole at a steady stream but not under much pressure. The challenge...is there a way to weld the hole closed with the limited access from 28' above with water coming throught he hole?
Reply:We need more information. Has this steel tube anything to do with a water well? I would suspect that the hole came about due to rust and any repair will rust eventually and you’d be back in the same hole. Would it be possible to snake a plastic liner down the tube?Abandon and sink a new pipe.
Reply:Like was said earlier, run a liner down the tube.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:In order to sink an inner liner we would need to disassemble a rack and pinion column that travels up and down in the tube. Which would close our operation for about 6 months just to gain access enough to insert an inner liner.If there was a way to weld we understand that this would be more of an ongoing repair than a permanant fix.
Reply:Originally Posted by curious georgeIn order to sink an inner liner we would need to disassemble a rack and pinion column that travels up and down in the tube. Which would close our operation for about 6 months just to gain access enough to insert an inner liner.If there was a way to weld we understand that this would be more of an ongoing repair than a permanant fix.
Reply:without seeing pics of it im going to say your screwed.    Your best bet might be to excavate around it and pump grout into the areaVantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Huh?How were you gonna gain access to "weld" it- if that was even possible
Reply:Possably dropping a shaped  inflatable bladder down the pipe and pumping the rusted area with a sealant of some type.....Mike
Reply:Ok, now we have a 36 foot long tube that has a wall thickness of 3/8 inch. A hole that is 28 feet down, with a hole that is 5 x 12, running which way?What is the inside diameter of the tube or are we really talking about a pipe casing or something like a mine shaft? How old is this tube? It may crumble in your hands as you try to you repair it. What does this rack and pinion do? Can the tube be caped 28 feet down and forget about the last 8 feet?How much room is there to work in this tube? Details, details, details!Last edited by transit; 11-29-2009 at 07:29 PM.
Reply:When I was working as a commercial diver, we frequently patched small holes in barges with water coming in with 2 part epoxy putty. The next option was a sealing patch usually with a strong back on the oposite side and a sealing material like rubber or foam on the patch plate bolted to the strong back. Welding, especially on steel that had rusted thru was a last resort. The problem is how to get it where you want it. I can't see managing to manipulate anything 28' down a shaft.As others have said we really need more detailed info to make any reasonable suggestions. If the shaft is large enough for a person to work in as it seems you have implied, How about excavating next to the shaft and then cutting a man sized access and weld it closed afterwards? Regardless from the sounds of this, almost anything you do will be considered "confined space" work and beyond the ability of most average workers..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by transitOk, now we have a 36 foot long tube that has a wall thickness of 3/8 inch. A hole that is 28 feet down, with a hole that is 5 x 12, running which way?What is the inside diameter of the tube or are we really talking about a pipe casing or something like a mine shaft? How old is this tube? It may crumble in your hands as you try to you repair it. What does this rack and pinion do? Can the tube be caped 28 feet down and forget about the last 8 feet?How much room is there to work in this tube? Details, details, details!
Reply:24" in dia will mean that to make a usable opening you'll probably have to be sure that the rack and pinion are supported by something other than the tube as you'll have to open up most of it to get access. This is definitely confined space work. The worker will probably need  a breathing devise and probably com gear, as well as harness for lowering. You'll need a safety guy suited up and ready to go if there is a problem, as well as a support team to send the guys down and haul them up. OSHA has very specific rules for this sort of work. Welding will mean checking for explosive vapors as well. The worker will also have to either work upside down in the tube or work with his arms over his head. All of this will be big money. I occasionally would get called in for confined space jobs, either as standby or support crew. Mostly we stand around and wait while the guy in the space does the work. Your cheapest and best bet is probably to try and fill the lower shaft with hydraulic grout..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Now that we have a better picture of this tube, a tire patch held in place with a sausage bladder is the good way to go. Mimi TV cameras are easy to come by. Take a long rod and weld an L shape foot on the end to mount a camera. At the other end of the rod weld a T handle oriented parallel to the L foot. This will give you the ability to see and judge the direction of the hole. Take careful notes of the depth and angle of the hole to locate any patch. Or figure how many sacks of concert it will take to plug the pipe to 6 or 7 feet and then fill the last foot with water proof concert above the hole.  Sending anyone down the casing is too much of a risk.
Reply:[QUOTE=DSW;336429....... as well as harness for lowering....Your cheapest and best bet is probably to try and fill the lower shaft with hydraulic grout.[/QUOTE]the safety  harness with tripod and winch is intended for extraction, not access. you'll need either a work platform(sounds unlikely) or a suspended bosun's chair for the welder . i think after 5 or 10  minutes suspended in a safety harness you are basically dead from  asphyxiation .
Reply:Correction noted.  The harness we use is more like a climbing harness that you "sit" in, where you step into it and then secure it to the torso to stay up right. That said, we dive and are raising and lowering in water and you are buoyant, changing the characteristics of what is going on. We do use a stage or bosuns seat when space allows. Most of what we end up doing in "confined space" is dry work even though you are suited up. You work in coveralls but with the helmets on with air and coms, frequently with camera gear. Usually it's inspections in areas where they are concerned with lack of O2 or hazardous fumes in barges..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:If this tube is only 4 or 5 years old, you probably have even more problems ahead.   If you have one spot already rotted out, there's probably more about ready to do so.   I'd seriously be thinking about a PVC liner or something ....Six MONTHS of lost production????
Reply:Interesting that the issue of harness arose. I am the Head Rigger on the project, so ensuring that the right harness be used for the job is extremly important. My project manager had approached me as to what would be needed to lower a person into the space. And because it is a 'confined space' I am looking for alternatives.Since I started this thread I have actually found a company called Seal-Tite International and according to their website, they actually deal in repairing pipes, tubes, casing etc.with a sealant that activates under pressure.There is actually a video demonstrating a pipline repair of an off shore drilling rig. The leak is 1500' below the surface of the ocean. I think this be worth looking into...if I can isolate the leak between two air bladders and pressurize the space between them and seal the leak.Thanks to all for the brain storming
Reply:Originally Posted by jsfabIf this tube is only 4 or 5 years old, you probably have even more problems ahead.   If you have one spot already rotted out, there's probably more about ready to do so.   I'd seriously be thinking about a PVC liner or something ....Six MONTHS of lost production????
Reply:You are talking big bucks and you want an answer from an internet forum ?????Why dont you hire an engineer to physically look at the problems.Good Luck
Reply:I would think you could get a couple of spyder cranes in there to disassemble your stage set.  6 months sounds like a ridiculous amount of time.  with the revenue this show generates if this cant be accomplished in 60 days i would be amazed.but as you know in showbiz nothing last forever.  You might just be forced to pump out the holes until the show is wrapped and bulldozed.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:I was going to say (jokingly) that if your pockets were deep enough, I'd let you dangle me by my ankles to fix it.  I'm kinda afraid to do so now because your pockets just might be deep enough.  Just for ****s and giggles, my shoulders measured somewhere around 20" though.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Is it a machined hole that somebody forgot about?  Is there a reward for a cheap and quick solution?My name's not Jim....
Reply:Is there room to put a small sump pump or pipe for an above ground pump on a timer or with a sensor on the surface? Seems to me that there is a high likelihood that you will have more problems on this or other tubes and a simple and cheap solution to the water is what you need. I can see the concrete and grout working on this one but what happens when the next hole is too high in the tube for that solution to work?HH 187Miller Bluestar1EAHP AlphaTig 200X
Reply:i really wish i could see pictures of this problem i think  i have a recommendation, but don't want to make it based on the fact that the picture i have in my head, and what is actually there could be two totally seperate things, any chance of a picture or two of this situation?
Reply:I've seen some pretty cool stuff involving inflatable liners for pipe that hardens and forms a permanent repair.This will only work if you can sacrifice an inch or so of id in area of leak and if ID of existing pipe is reasonably uniform and not corroded up and lumpy--Measure up and cut a band of pipe that will neatly slip inside existing pipe [full circumferential] X whatever height is needed [guessing here but 2 ft high probably]-don't make it too tight- install a pittless adapter in inner band of pipe in approx. area of where leak might be-- what you will have then is a band of pipe that will slip neately down ID of existing pipe- ensure pittless adapter is flush with OD of patch pipe-- then tack weld piece of heavy hollow structural square steel say 1"x 2" as close to top end of this patch pipe as possible but slightly offset from pittless adapter-- at centre of hollow structural square , weld a 1" or 1 1/2" x sch. 80 minimum 1/2 coupler thread end pointing up-- install T&C pipe in 6' sections or ?? threaded together and begin install by sliding band down inside of existing pipe, installing 6' sections as yu go-- once you are at proper elevation and covering hole, ensuring pittless adapter is over leak area-- install other 1/2 of pittless adapter and pitless line to surface and pump hydraulic cement, 2 part epoxy, grout or ?? as specified by a hydraulic /grouting engineer, down pittless line thereby sealing off leak area--let set up as per directions, then break off tacks by wiggling install piping and remove install piping-- then remove pittless adapter piping and job completed- yu may want to do a couple dry fits and runs to ensure everything goes according to Hoyle-- material cost will be relatively cheap, labour will be the biggest expense I would think.  Good Luck with it!!
Reply:Originally Posted by curious georgeTo add to the scenario, this is a show in Las Vegas. And many of the show here have experienced similar problems. There is an aquifer that runs under the Strip and many of the show have basements which house all of the mechanical aspects of the lifts for our stages. We have four lifts in our show with 8 of these steel casings.We also have a cistern that fills with underground water 24/7 and a pump system that switches on and off to drain the cistern. We may have add a rise in the water table that only now as shown us a problem we may have had along.In order to fix the problem the right way (insert a liner) we would need to remove a portion of the stage which weighs approx 25,000 lbs. then we would need to pull the supports columns out of the basement or at the very least out of the casing. Then remove the column pinion support plates. Our tech grid is at maximum load so roof access for a crane would be need blah blah blah.  We do 10 shows a week and make approx. $200,000 per show so closing for 6 months could destroy the show permantly.Hows that for a little more detail : ) Again thanks to all who offered suggestions.
Reply:Originally Posted by curious georgeTo add to the scenario, this is a show in Las Vegas. And many of the show here have experienced similar problems. There is an aquifer that runs under the Strip and many of the show have basements which house all of the mechanical aspects of the lifts for our stages. We have four lifts in our show with 8 of these steel casings.We also have a cistern that fills with underground water 24/7 and a pump system that switches on and off to drain the cistern. We may have add a rise in the water table that only now as shown us a problem we may have had along.In order to fix the problem the right way (insert a liner) we would need to remove a portion of the stage which weighs approx 25,000 lbs. then we would need to pull the supports columns out of the basement or at the very least out of the casing. Then remove the column pinion support plates. Our tech grid is at maximum load so roof access for a crane would be need blah blah blah.  We do 10 shows a week and make approx. $200,000 per show so closing for 6 months could destroy the show permantly.Hows that for a little more detail : ) Again thanks to all who offered suggestions.
Reply:Well the project has in fact been turned over to the engineers to solve the problem. There was a fine line as to who's responsibilty it was to fix and pay for in the long run. The show is off the hook and the venue picks up the check.Thanks to all
Reply:Originally Posted by transitRemember that walk way that collapsed years ago at a convention center? A few people went to jail.