6011 vertical up @#%&

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Is it just me or is using E6011 in the vertical up a painful nightmare?  I'm re-visiting my previous welding mod that's going through the Hobart SMAW 38 topic book so that I can get a few more topics done while I have a week of free time to do so.  SMAW is what I best describe as my unruly 5 year old child because I have struggled with getting it down and right now vertical work is driving me mad because Im trying to follow the book which says to do the inverted T on T joints with a 45 angle and a 5 - 10 push but despite however long I stay in the toes and maintain the angle I'm undercutting and leaving a hump.  I've dropped amps from 100 to 80, lengthened time in the toes, increased the whip, decreased the whip, raised the push angle, lowered the push angle, told the weldmont it looked pretty, threatened the rod, swore at the rig and still got some of the worst looking welds and undercut.   So I went to talk with the instructor who basically said to ignore the book and find what works for you and demonstrated a simple whip and pause up the joint which I did and while my welds arent even finger nailed the undercut is gone and the high ridge is gone but I really hate welding with 60XX series rod because its so hard to tell if the weld is good or not thanks to how crappy the bead looks.  What gets me though is the books seem to be wrong allot when it comes to whip types, I know that I used the inverted T with 7018 at some point and it looked good but that was about 5 weeks ago and working full time plus school full time makes for a fuzzy memory.  Is it typical for the books to be so hit or miss when it comes to whip types?
Reply:I think the instructor needs to be a bit more specific when he says ignore the book!! Did he show you how its done or is this instructor all mouth? Ask him to show how it is properly done after all that is why you pay to take lessons from an instructor.Personally I use an inverted S weave filling in the pockets of the S as I proceed on my welds.He needs to show you the proper vertical weld techniques then let you practice on "what works for you"Last edited by specter; 11-30-2009 at 02:13 PM.Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:He showed me the whip up then come back method like you would do on flat and horizontal.  What he told me is that not every method is going to work for every person and that he has always had difficulty with the inverted T.  BTW I failed to mention that the plate is 3/8 steel 5 pieces 2" x 5" tacked to make 8 T joints.  I have to admit that this part of smaw is really enough that I have considered taking a failing grade on two upcoming mods so that I can instead focus on mig and tig because smaw is so frustrating when it comes to controlling the rod and in turn controlling the puddle in vertical positions.  Problem is that most places are wanting welders with multi experience now so I'm stuck.
Reply:Learn to love 6010 and 6011, both rods offer a clear view of the puddle and you can easily see the effects of rod angle, arc length and amperage.  Understanding these rods will make every other process easier to learn once you understand how to control/read the puddle.  There is no easy fast way to learn to weld properly.
Reply:ive gotta laugh a little i was just as frustrated as you and worse v up is tuff i will admit that but its do able ive found out theres more than 1 to do v up  the x mas tree style or prymad and theres the "dragon skin" look or fish scale the main thing i find out is im comfortable for 30 -40 seconds and then i get un comfortable ive learned that you have to be relaxed and comfortable as possible and find a position that you get max support muscles fatigue so stay with it one day it will happen and once you get a good practice coupon your confidence goes waaay up and it gets easier just wait until you get to overheadmiller maxstar 150   hobart handler 210 w mig conversion hobart 250 arc force plasma cutter    boston ind cutting torch miller performance auto darkening helmet milwalkee 14in chop saw 10,000 watt generator huge drill press and industrial band saw
Reply:6011 and 6010 cellulose electrodes are primarily designed and intended for vertical down when welding 5G pipe butt joints. They will also complete 1G rotated and 2G pipe root pases satisfactorily.I'm not surprised you are struggling to get acceptable results using vertical up with 6010 / 6011, perhaps an alternative coating, eg: rutile type on a 60 ksi electrode will help like 6013.These have the same H2 status as 6010 / 6011. If low H2 is required, use 7016 vertical up for root and 7018 for fill/cap.Cheers
Reply:Originally Posted by chrispc666011 and 6010 cellulose electrodes are primarily designed and intended for vertical down when welding 5G pipe butt joints. They will also complete 1G rotated and 2G pipe root pases satisfactorily.I'm not surprised you are struggling to get acceptable results using vertical up with 6010 / 6011, perhaps an alternative coating, eg: rutile type on a 60 ksi electrode will help like 6013.These have the same H2 status as 6010 / 6011. If low H2 is required, use 7016 vertical up for root and 7018 for fill/cap.Cheers
Reply:Each to their own, however cellulosic electrodes are developed for "stovepipe" welding of pipe. This technique is exclusively vertical down using small root gaps, primarily for high productivity.The cellulosic arc is too fierce to be of any use vertical up. As previously stated, flat overhead positions are OK, however vertical down for positional applications is best. There is absolutely no welding productivity advantage using cellulose vertical up in comparison to better suited electrodes designed for vertical up progression. Have a go at welding your 5G fixed pipe vertical down using E6010 and enjoy the improved results over that achieved using vertical up.Cheers for the feedback
Reply:I'll put some pics up tomorrow, I have some now but it was a frustrating day in the booth and I'm still stuck on the same topic.  I'm going to retry the inverted T based on a suggestion that another student made who has been welding in the Navy for a while.  The topic I'm on now is 5 1/4 inch plates 2"x5" tacked together to make 8 T joints with the root being an inverted T, second pass a box weave and the last a Z weave.  Time wise I am limited as we are starting the tig module next week and we are loosing time to the upcoming holiday and then its on to advanced structural welding followed by flux core mig then pipe and if I don't have this down soon then theres no use of my trying for the 6G certs.  Rod wise we are left with E6011 3/32, E7018 3/32, and E7018 1/8 so anything else I will have to furnish.  I don't see any difference with plate prep whether removing the scale with my grinder or leaving it on the plate which is to a point the beauty of 60XX rods.  Today was bad because I'm exhausted from working 9 hours before school and then 5 hours in school and I get about 4 hours of sleep a day ( yep I work midnights and attend morning classes ) so stress was an issue today.Gotta run, taking my daughter out for chinese food as a reward for her good report card.
Reply:First have the book show you how to weld!!! :-) The 6011 electrode is the basic rod and I do agree with eyesolater, you have to master this electrode first to understand what the puddle is doing. One weld test when I first started out was 5/32" 6011 vertical up so this electrode can be welded vertical up. I have instructed adult welding class and had the students welding mostly with 6011 to understand the puddle, then switched to 7018.  If you are taking classes which it sounds like you are and your instructor says you need too find what works for you he is correct. I would have gone one step further in getting into the booth with you to show you what I meant.  The amps appear to be in the correct range 80 - 110, now you can't long arc cause you will change the parameters of your weld. The electrode should be almost straight out with about 5 degrees down from 90. You can whip the rod up because it is a fast cooling rod and the puddle will stay, but by all means don't be afraid of it and hold the puddle on the low side to build up the puddle and prevent undercut. Get some good leathers and practice slowing down to a 1001 count on one side and 1002 count on the other, practice and practice. I hope this helps and use the books for reference. Keep a short arc and deep penetrationWeldor/ Certified Inspector
Reply:Ya know whats funny?  I've had three four different instructors tell me to ignore the book when it comes to the weave type and to find what works for you.  He did come in the booth and did the inverted T but it came out horrible for him so he reverted to whip and pause in the forward and back weave.  The hard part on that one for me is getting enough control to have my nail tips 1/16 apart as compared to them being 1/8 to 1/4 now.  With mig I had no problem seeing the weld puddle because I was able to get up close and watch what I was doing before the puddle generally but sticks not as generous at first and my miller pro hobby auto helmet can be difficult to see the puddle if I'm behind the stick at its start.  I've got my shade set at 9 now and had to throw some anti fog on the lens and it has helped but I prefer the ability to get within 6 inches of the puddle and arc with mig for a good view of whats doin.With the puddle itself on 6011 I've noticed that it either cools fast or runs like water once the plate gets hot enough so its kind of a gamble as to when the plate gets that hot ( no paint sticks or laser thermometers ) and the arc is as bad as an unfaithful girlfriend when it comes to wandering as I get near the top quarter of the plates.Not sure if I said it before but flat and horizontal I do really good with and my beads are about %90 dead on with being straight and the nails sitting right on top of each other but unlike the 18 yr olds in my class I can't whiz through it like its nothin.
Reply:I need to see what you are doing for more assistanceWeldor/ Certified Inspector
Reply:I can take pics of the end result but no video of the weaves in action.
Reply:Look forward to seeing what you've got.Weldor/ Certified Inspector
Reply:What I do with my verts (Using 6010) is generally first pass using a J weave, second, a box weave, and third either a box weave or a figure 8. If you time it correct you have a nice looking equal leg length weld?
Reply:Have to post these then look to see which is which. Attached Images
Reply:Ok 1 and 2 are stringer vert up, the rest are inverted T though I dont have pics of my last piece yet as I am still working on it though those inverted T's look more like 1 and 2 than the ones here.  I've set the heat to 100 and adjusted my travel speed and temper to get a better looking bead.  The hardest thing at this point is getting those nail edges closer together.  I actually got into a disagreement with the instructor because he wanted me to run covers on the last three pics to fill in the bad area's while I disagreed stating that it may cover the mistakes but if the root is done poorly then it will show up on testing because if you can't do the root then the rest is a waste until you do it right all the way through.
Reply:go from 80 to 75 amps and run a kind of half moon pattern on a vertical up
Reply:Tried that one both ways and I can't get it down with stick though mig was great and those amps are to cool for 1/4 steel.  My latest piece I was able to get a better than crude inverted T to work with amps at 100 and adjusting the travel speed but I'm still struggling to get those ridges closer together from spacing like this :)...)  to this ).).).).)I'm thinking that I need to come back further than what I'm doing now but its hard to determine how far back because I have to whip up about 5 - 10 electrodes to keep the metal cool enough that I'm not gouging it out or creating bear bellies all the way up the bead.
Reply:With all due respect to people who have suggested otherwise, forget the various motions for now. I know, I go through it every year with my students, I don’t even mention using other motions until late in their senior year.  The various motions are great tools for welders who can run the electrode, but can be confusing for beginners.    Just use a straight whip and pause, and don’t forget the pause.  Make sure you are pausing in the puddle and watch it fill, watch the back side for proper filling and watch the sides for undercut and when you think the puddle is full whip out come back and do it again.  ALWAYS base your whipping out of the puddle on the puddle being full not just going through a motion.  Just make short welds and closely analyze what you saw when welding and what the result was. I would suggest experimenting with are length first and watch the effect it has on the puddle.  And seeing the puddle, make sure you can see the entire puddle.  I would suggest starting your vertical up weld with the bottom of the joint at chin height this will allow you to see the entire puddle.  Hope this helps.
Reply:I'm running about 95 amp on 1/4 plates doing the verts with the dig set fairly high. If you hold your stick to the sides a bit longer and let the puddle move then whip it across and repeat without the stick being held in the center at all or barely it helps too. Looks to me like you're having the same problem as when I first started my verts. You're moving the rod too slowly across the center? and not moving upwards fast enough?. If you get your rod out of the heat long enough for the last movement to half cool and then move it across only half a rod width on your last pass you'll have a much tighter, better looking bead. Again to make it look even better hold the rod to the sides a bit longer and keep it moving fast across the center.Hope this helps. My instructor now has me doing verts that look nearly as good as his following this advice.
Reply:Latest pics with box weave. Attached Images
Reply:So these are the latest pieces that I did at the end of class yesterday and through class today with box weave for the second pass.  I didn't include the first box weave run because it was on another test plate for practice with trying the staggered box weave.  The one in these pics is the ladder box weave and despite a few weak spots it came out better than I expected but still has a ways to go before its great.  Unfortunately I have only one more day to work on this and then its on to 5 weeks of beginning tig and this is something that I'm really looking forward to but I do want to get back to stick so I'm planning on putting in some extra time after classes 3 days out of the week to knock out the tig mod. Attached Images
Reply:Oh yes I do know about the slag, I did a rough cleaning to get the pics, my gear is usually a standard chipping hammer, 18v drill with a wire wheel and an automotive pick tool to get at the stuff that wont come out.
Reply:From the pics you're still stepping up too high. That's why you're getting scales instead of a nice smooth bead. Remember with the box weave to only step up 1/2 a rod width just after it's begun to cool ..  You barely step up on the pass... quickly through the center, a little longer on the sides... Looks like you're getting it though. For 7018 vertical up... First pass inverted V, second Z, third, Z .. Step up barely as well but move a bit faster than 6011 or 6010 since it's not fast freeze. Also be careful of the rod angle so not to snuff the arc.Thats the problem, getting the control to only go up half which I don't have and when I've tried that I get a ridge or droop.  At this point I wont be able to touch stick again until I get through 34 topics in the tig mod and then its back to mig for fluxcore for 12 topics so roughly 2 - 2.5 months.  I would have preferred to have stuck with stick from the basics all the way through to pipe and then went to mig and tig but the school is set up based on what AWS wants so anyone who hasn't finished the first stick book such as myself has to push through other training to try and get back to the stick book and frankly I'm not looking forward to jumping to an advanced stick topic when I haven't gotten down vertical up yet or overhead.
Reply:Here's my second day with 7018 verticals. They're improving but it's a bit tougher than the 6010/11 to keep them from running. Attached Images
Reply:Not bad at all, your hand is steady and all you have to do is spend a hair longer in the toes to get the bead to fill right up to the edge of the top plate and get better fusion on the bottom where your leaning into what looks like overlap almost.
Reply:Yeah. Didn't help I was a tad hungover at class that day haha.