Invention Manufacturing Help - spot weld to scissors

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I need professional welding advise:I have invented and am manufacturing my own patent pending product:http://www.scaredycut.com It consists of a pair of high quality barber scissors with a mounting block (currently made out of hard wood) attached to one of the blades (currently by a screw).  This allows the guide combs intended for electric hair clippers to be used with the scissors for the grooming of animals that are bothered by sound and vibration.My question is: It seems that I could greatly simplify my manufacturing process and have a superior result if I spot welded a stainless steel plate to the scissor in place of the hard wood block.  The steel plate would be stamped into the proper shape and size and be approximately 1/16" thick, a single scissor blade is also 1/16".  Could I get away with trying to use an inexpensive 115Volt spot welders like:http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=45689Would the weld warp the blade at all?  Is there a glue, epoxy, or adhesive that would also work bonding metal to metal (the joint is not subjected to allot of force)?Please share any ideas or advice you might have.  Your assistance is appreciated.Thanks,[email protected]
Reply:I'm not trying to be a prick or anything but some folks make their living by providing fabrication services and/or weld process advice to people like you, who know nothing about welding and don't really care to -- you want to manufacture your product efficiently and make a profit.If you want to expand on your business making these things, you might have to run it like a business.Or to put it another way, if you get an answer to your question, what fee or percentage of your profits go to the person who gives the best answer?Maybe the better question you might consider asking is what shop local to you would fabricate what you want at the volumes you want.
Reply:If the screw works - use it. Don't complicate the process. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:I agree, if you're not into metal work to start with how are you gonna cut your SS plates?  You're not gonna cut some 1/8" SS sheet with a pair of snips.  Find you a local shop to work with.DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Originally Posted by littlefuzzI agree, if you're not into metal work...
Reply:Matthew,May I suggest that you mount the scissors to the comb block with two flathead screws, inset into the fixed blade, so the moving one can pass over the fixed one for a full-length cut. This will allow removing the scissors for sharpening, and prevent the fixed blade from turning.  Of course turning could be prevented by other means.  Good luck with the project.  "Scaredycut" is good.
Reply:On the subject of a shop in my area what is the shop etiquette on asking questions (especially dumb ones)I had to have something cast as part of another project and the first foundry I went to was pretty busy and as a result of my not knowing enough about casting and our not having enough time to talk the casting came out wrong.  The second foundry I went to had the time to consult with me and I got exactly what I wanted.  In both cases I was basically taking up their time, unpaid time, with whatever questions/consultation I had.  If I could have just called 1-900-foundry or something I could have saved allot of money.Last edited by Matthew_ScaredyCut; 04-08-2007 at 03:18 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by WeldordieI suggest ...flathead screws
Reply:We use 2 part epoxy with great results gluing stainless components together in balustrading.Its very strong but I have no  idea if it would work in your application.Im not at work but I'll get the details on Tuesday (Sydney) when I go back.Gluing would negate the need to drill and tap the backing plate and the scissors there fore less set up, tooling and labour skill requirements.It would also alow you to change your scissor source without re-tooling.I would screw before welding as Micro Zone said  keep it simple.It also minimizes the chance of distortion.If you were to go to Stainless backing plates consider getting them lasor cut ,we get a lot of things cut this way and its quite cost effective and highly accurate.Ask questions to everyone every where its the only way we learn and good luck.
Reply:I forgot to add Weldordie's point about sharpening is well worth considering seriously and would make screwing a stronger candidate than gluing or welding.
Reply:Scardeycat,Are all barber shear "rakes" or whatever you call them interchangeable, or will you be selling custom ones with the scardycat? I was thinking of a method where one tip would seat in a socket and then spring pressure hold the rake into a recessed groove, allowing for fast rake size changes. But what if the groomer pulls or twists, trying to cut out a mess?Looks like it would take two hands to handle the scardeycat. With the seven to one lever held in the groomer's fingers does this give an already nervous Fido an edge over the groomer? Do you need the long tips? Can you shorten the scissors up?Maybe the whole concept needs to be rethought. What if you had a fist held guillotine style cutter? Or maybe a push plunger acting on the working end of the scissors?  Maybe for all King would know, he's being petted.Are the old style mechanical hair shears still available?You need the best design for your product early on, otherwise, if the concept is a hit, the faster rat will be nipping at your heals.I'm not trying to bust your balloon, just suggesting that now's the time to get the best basic design possible. Maybe you have that, but you should still consider other possibilities.Good Luck
Reply:Originally Posted by Brett...2 part epoxy with great results...change your scissor source without re-tooling...
Reply:Keep in mind- it will run up production costs by screwing it together. It will take several extra steps (punching hole, tapping threads) and and extra parts (um, the screws) compared to welding it. The idea is to not make it servicable, but when it goes dull, they throw it away and spend more $$$ to buy another pair! It sounds wrong, but that's how one makes real money. A stainless steel car body would have an auto manufacturer broke in a few years, if you get what I'm saying. Simplify production and it shows as profit. After all, you aren't investing five figures into this just for fun. You're in it to make money.By doing a spotweld, you are cutting production costs drastically when compared to screwing together. Material=money and time=money. Cut time and materials used and your books get fatter. Cut time and you can make more in the same time which translates to $$$ if you have a demand for your product.As a patent holder with another pending, my advice is not to put too much information out on the web about a pending product. When a patent is pending, you have little protection from ripoffs since the term "pending" has no legal value in the USA. Someone in China or elsewhere can see this invention and have it in production in a week and dump hundreds of thousands of YOUR product in the USA and it's too late- THEY have the market. If you do get the patent, they already made millions and it will be hard for you to even get on the market since they are the recognized one. And don't forget they will produce them for 1/4 to 1/5 of what it takes to produce them in North America.Once patented, you can't even go after them in China even if you have a patent that applies in China...they simply don't give a crap. You can, however stop any distributor or importer in the US that handles the ripoff item. This is going on in my industry right now. They shut down a distributor for the China imports and there are 5 more in line to the dirty deed.I assume you have a REAL patent attorney? If not, get one now. Not one of these "1-800-PATENT" types you see on TV either!As for the original question...my vote is spotweld all the way. It will make you $$$
Reply:First good luck with your product. If the shape of the block that you're mounting the scissors to matches the shape of the scissor well and not tend to slip when clamping them to gether then I don't see why spot welding wouldn't work. Although I do like the idea of being able to remove the scissors for sharpening. I haven't spot welded anything thicker sheet metal but I guessing that you might need a 240 volt spot welder. I don't know if harbor freight has them or not. While harbor freight might be a good source for a spot welder for developing your product I think you're going to need a tool of higher quality if and when you move on to production.
Reply:id like to have this for me! then when my wife cut my hair i wouldnt have to wear a hat for a month, hee hee hee.
Reply:Originally Posted by Diehardid like to have this for me! then when my wife cut my hair i wouldnt have to wear a hat for a month, hee hee hee.
Reply:Originally Posted by Matthew_ScaredyCutI need professional welding advise:...It consists of a pair of high quality barber scissors with a mounting block (currently made out of hard wood) attached to one of the blades (currently by a screw).  This allows the guide combs intended for electric hair clippers to be used with the scissors for the grooming of animals that are bothered by sound and vibration......The steel plate would be stamped into the proper shape and size and be approximately 1/16" thick, a single scissor blade is also 1/16"...
Reply:Originally Posted by turboblown...As a patent holder...protection from rip-offs...my vote is spotweld all the way.
Reply:hey tresi, mine dont really grow that fast it just takes about a month to get used to the gaps.
Reply:So I went ahead and picked up the HF 115volt spot welder since I've got 30 days to return it anyway (it was $148 after coupon),linkBut I don't really know what's meant by "uncoated" stock and if my scissors qualify.  I'll get some 1/16" x 2" stainless flat and try that (so this is dumb but you can't weld different types of metal together right?, like some aluminum alloy to steel, guessing no but that would be cool if I could).Holding out hope for some perfect epoxy though as it doesn't have to be too strong.So This seemed like a good reference for how to spot weld, please let me know if there is a better guide:http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...uts3/index.aspI also need to look into metal stamping so if anyone can recommend resources I'd appreciate it.Last edited by Matthew_ScaredyCut; 04-09-2007 at 11:16 PM.
Reply:Why not skip the hard wood and make the plastic comb be able to recieve the screw?
Reply:Originally Posted by 12,000 DoorsWhy not skip the hard wood and make the plastic comb be able to receive the screw?
Reply:Update:Spot welding stainless steel to the scissor works wonderfully.  It's very fast, clean and strong.  I would still appreciate any suggestions on epoxy that works well in bonding to metal as for aesthetic reasons attaching a brass plate would be a nice option. Also is there a colored alloy that would spot weld to steel without the need for brazing ect.?I tried to use my 115volt spot welder to do a spot weld of aluminum to aluminum just to see if I could and blew a fuse with no success.  I'm guessing it's not strong enough?
Reply:I haven't read the whole thread in depth, Matthew.How serious do you want to get with this?There are lots of good ideas and great products that go nowhere for all sorts of reasons - usually because the planning hasn't been done. Marketing is more critical than the invention itself. We've all seen good ideas poorly marketed that have failed. And we've seen lousy ideas well marketed that have taken off.The advice about not putting too much stuff out there is important. I reckon with most inventions, you have a 12 month window before somebody rips it off and makes it cheaper. Chinese, Taiwanese, Koreans etc specialise in that. They're not being malicious, it's just the way they do business. (And before anybody carps on about how wrong that is, we nearly all endorse their methods by buying their products.)If you're looking at making more than a couple of hundred of these, I would go the countersunk screw route. But don't assemble them yourself i.e. send out a pack with the scissors, the screws and the other bit for people to put together themselves.Ideally, you'd want to get the scissors predrilled to your specifications - ironically, China will be the best source for that. For a smaller order, a local shop may be okay.You'll neet to get your packaging, website etc sorted out before you launch - remember that 12 month rip-off window.I'm assuming you'll tour the pet shows etc. I bet you can rent a booth at them to flog your thing.The TV home shopping channels would take it, but they'll want a big margin.And of course, you'll e-bay it.Like I said, it gets down to how big you want this to get. If you're just going to make a couple of hundred and sell them locally, forget all the above.Scott
Reply:Thanks for the great input Scott.  Well, with 70 million cat owners I'd like to see it go big.  Here is the theory I've been running on.It's very important for the product to be high quality, especially initially, and for all the first customers to be very satisfied with it.  This is why I am not making my own components but buying the best scissors and combs already in production.The question of how to best make the product is key and I hadn't even thought of spot welding and stainless steel until recently and so I'd be kicking myself If I'd just written a big check to a Chinese manufacturer last month to make it by some inferior method.  Scissors run in quality from an msrp of $1 to an msrp of $50-$75.  The ones I'm using now have an MSRP of $11 but I am considering doing some test versions with $50 scissors for the professional groomers..One question I have about turning my business over to another company, i.e. a Chinese manufacturer, is what do they need me for once "my" product is selling if my patent hasn't issued yet and they are unethical?  Couldn't I end up paying someone to rip me off?Besides I'm very proud of a product that is %100 made in the USA (as this is including all the components) and I can't see why I can't produce it here at a very low cost.  The Wahl clipper corporation and Andis clipper corp both manufacture in the U.S. and would be the closest models I have for how to do it right.I would really appreciate any feedback in this area but I do realize it's a welding forum so I understand if that is off topic.  I could use additional referrals to Los Angeles area shops and manufacturing professionals if anyone can help me with that.  I know most of the welders here don't work in mass production but if anyone does please give me your input.Again I really appreciate the feedback Scott, home assemply hadn't even occured to me!Last edited by Matthew_ScaredyCut; 04-18-2007 at 10:01 PM.I would really appreciate any feedback in this area but I do realize it's a welding forum
Reply:Originally Posted by scott brunsdon...patent laws are like over there,...find someone that already has a huge pet data base...
Reply:Thanks again Scott, the patent is going to be very solid thankfully so I won't have any problems there.
Reply:Yes legal and illegal competition is definitely something I will need to be ready for when it comes.  This is also why it is so important for me to refine my manufacturing before I have to.  I know that welding is still very popular in the mass production of automobiles and I've purchase quite a few items that were made with spot welds so I figured that was something to investigate.  On that note I could still use referals to professionals in the Los Angeles area.  Also so far the best supplier of metal material in my area has been Industrial Metal Supply Co.
Reply:My brother lost $12000.00 to a patent company. He could'nt do nothing to get his money back because the company went bankrupt after they riped off a bunch of suckers.Did you get a patent search done? What will it cost you for a patent attorney and fees?If I were you, if possible,make a whole bunch of them and flood the market with your product(name).I would do a Trade Mark also.THE OLDER I GET! THE  SMARTER MY DAD WAS!Thermal Arc 185 inverter Tig welderABITIG 26  tig torchLotus foot pedalLincoln 225 stick welderClark 185SG Mig spoolgunwelderVictor torch/regulatorsHF36" shear,bender,roller.
Reply:Cartman, you resurrected a 2 year old post. I see it's being produced and solid and is now patented.So, if you're still here Matt, how did you end up putting it together?
Reply:Cartman and MX727, sorry I didn't check this months ago.My patent and trademark were granted last year and I am now in the middle of mass producing an improved version of the product.I did end up successfully using spot welding to assemble the product.  Using two side by side spot welds made an indestructible and precise connection (A single spot weld allowed for the possibility of twisting, though it was strong).  And SO fast, I love spot welding for manufacturing.The only downside is that the spot weld must be cleaned  up where visible.  If anyone has more information on how to make a "pretty" or smooth spot weld I would be very grateful.I'm wondering if it would work better having a blunter tip, or even a flat copper bar, on the side which needs to be smooth.As far as patents and getting ripped off: I was "pro se" but with professional help, meaning I did most of the work myself and consulted a patent attorney to refine my claims.  I am convinced I have a much stronger patent as I put far more into the patent search and researching the patent than a legal firm would have.  I wouldn't recommend it to someone who doesn't have a strong academic background though.  The patent attorney was great and brought 50 years of experience to strengthening and broadening my claims.  I ended up with a really strong patent (important since a patent can be worthless even when they are granted if the claims are too weak to be useful in court).Anyone can and should do their own patent search initially to find out how viable pursuing a patent looks.I also filed my own trademark and that is not too tough.I have since filed two more patents with a fourth on the way.
Reply:Glad to see you sorted it all out.One thing, theres no such thing as "business ethics".Objectively, its either legal or illegal.Ethics is way too subjective to apply to business.Another consideration, "Vice Grip" flooded the mkt with their excellent product for years, they just went bankrupt. They fell asleep at the switch and failed to notice the chinese import copies were quite good at 1/3rd the price.If someone was paying attention at Vice Grip they would have gone to china yrs ago and moved their manufacturing off shore.Ethics in business is playing by ping pong rules, thats dumb thing to do when the competition plays by king kong rules. Good luck.!
Reply:Don't remember who had brought up business ethics but I would somewhat agree.  I think the relationship that really matters, and one in which ethics are very important, is the relationship with the customer.  Trademarks are made valuable by a history of ethical behavior.  Not cutting corners to give a customer the value they deserve is ethical.As far as not being asleep at the switch WAHL clipper corp is a great example, they are so inside China they are a major part of selling clippers to the people of China while they have maintained U.S. manufacturing without layoffs.
Reply:Originally Posted by Matthew_ScaredyCutAs far as not being asleep at the switch WAHL clipper corp is a great example, they are so inside China they are a major part of selling clippers to the people of China while they have maintained U.S. manufacturing without layoffs.
Reply:Congratulations to Matthew_ScaredyCutGood Job!   Originally Posted by jonesg. . .We just lost a customer I had a 25 yr track record with, but its just business.When I lose one I replace them with 3 more.
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepEthics aside, when did Vise-Grip file bankruptcy?BTW, I've never seen a "quite good" Vise-Grip copy, regardless of origin. Anyone else?Good Luck
Reply:Matthew I think your product is perfect for DTV (direct TV marketing). It would fit right in with their business model..........But wait, there's more! Along with your purchase, we will throw in two sets of combs and a kitty bib. Just pay additional postage and handling....Seriously, you could be selling millions of these and making a small fortune (when you do you can buy me a beer)mike
Reply:Thanks Mike!Yeah I hope that TV works out.  The product coincidentally has that same price point of around $20.  I'm thinking of trying google TV or spot runner at some point soon.I'm making some real progress on improved spot weld methods and will post my results soon.
Reply:i used to have a pr of barber shears that were hand powered it would be a better design they were shape like regular shears but had 2 handles that you used to clip hair with do some searching on e net of old barber tools  would be helpfulmiller maxstar 150   hobart handler 210 w mig conversion hobart 250 arc force plasma cutter    boston ind cutting torch miller performance auto darkening helmet milwalkee 14in chop saw 10,000 watt generator huge drill press and industrial band saw
Reply:M. ScaredyCut:A specific tool to turn on the ladies (!) might be a good thing, but IMO versatility is the key to success.An object that will fit many standard scissors without modification. You can still sell/market your scissor complete with the combs or to fit the combs. People might purchase that.Myself? NOoooo.BTW, spot welding will always cause your product problems and if you do find a market niche you will very soon re-design.Last edited by Marcel Bauer; 01-17-2010 at 11:04 PM.[B]Forever learning[B].