Penetration..

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More playing around today..now in a previous post "elderthewelder"mentioned the weld i did looked "cold" and the dips were too far apart..Maybe not..maybe so..So this am i had to try something...i used 5/16" mat this time instead of 1/4" and left a gap of around .050 to fill..Attachment 4664the dips are 3/8" wide and about 1/8" spaced between them..Attachment 4665Attachment 4666this is what it looks like after a pass thru the band saw..flipped over..Attachment 4667well it seems good to me..the weld is more than half way thru the material and thats really all thats needed..i only went up 20 amps to 140..same 3/32 tungestion..same cup..now it was mentioned to run between 150 and 200 amps..well not with this machine anyway.. i'd be left with that molten puddle on the floor if i ran it @200 with the material i used..lesson here?not every machine is the same..sometimes the length of your torch / leads / ground cable have alot to do with output amps at the arc..do what works for YOU it may be too much for someone else...and thanks elderthewelder..gave me something to think about today.. ...zap!Last edited by zapster; 12-27-2007 at 05:22 PM.I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:oh so that's what you where up to today
Reply:So then only 1/2 way through is enough. I was tought that at minimum, 3/4's , but always strive for 100%. Very, Very interesting!"Wherever you go....there you are"
Reply:When welding thicker stuff like that a heavy chamfer will guarantee penetration at least to the bottom of the chamfer.  The metal is also thinner there and you will weld it quicker.  Once that puddle comes together it is almost as deep as it's gonna go.
Reply:thats why i did not v out a groove to weld into...if i do the backside at 100 amps while its hot...done deal..total penetration..ok.. if i went to 180 amps... then total penetration from one side is possible... but the end can get scarey and the blob syndrome comes into play... i'm happy i did this.. ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:There is one thing that has puzzled me about making corner welds in thin aluminum from 1/32 to 1/8.  This is without using a backup.  Some times the material will flow together and make a smooth flow together on the other side, but most of the time there will be an oxide fold and sometimes a combination.  I am talking about a corner weld where the inside corners are touching and would be called a fillet weld.  I did some experimenting with solar flux and that works good  for  the back side but kind of nasty on the side being welded. A copper backup with a radius really makes it pretty on the inside.  Back flow with argon works nice with stainless but it didn't seem to help with aluminum.  Comments?
Reply:Originally Posted by riley mcmillanThere is one thing that has puzzled me about making corner welds in thin aluminum from 1/32 to 1/8.  This is without using a backup.  Some times the material will flow together and make a smooth flow together on the other side, but most of the time there will be an oxide fold and sometimes a combination.  I am talking about a corner weld where the inside corners are touching and would be called a fillet weld.  I did some experimenting with solar flux and that works good  for  the back side but kind of nasty on the side being welded. A copper backup with a radius really makes it pretty on the inside.  Back flow with argon works nice with stainless but it didn't seem to help with aluminum.  Comments?
Reply:The weld is from one side only.  Lets say we form up a pan.  The inside edges of the corner touch and we fill up the corner.  Lets say we get enough penetration so that there is a smooth inside.  sometimes the inside will flow together but most of the time even though the weld penetrates through there is what is called an oxide fold.  It actually looks like a crack but if you cut a cross section it is not a crack.  When welding a steel corner like that it makes a smooth nugget on the inside.  To get that smoothness in stainless you need to shield with argon on the other side of the weld.
Reply:I just tried to draw a sketch with the key board and it didn't look right.  I have got to learn how to post pictures with this mcintosh.Last edited by riley mcmillan; 08-22-2006 at 11:24 PM.
Reply:lesson here?not every machine is the same..sometimes the length of your torch / leads / ground cable have alot to do with output amps at the arc..do what works for YOU it may be too much for someone else...
Reply:So why do you tell us "that the key to a good aluminum weld is a gas mixer"? In my opinion that is bunk. I can weld just fine using pure argon..(quote)look we're all here to help / learn..comments like that dont help anyone and how can you make statements like that...WHEN YOU'VE NEVER USED ONE?  (and dont tell me you have)sure anyone can just crank the amps up..but if you dont have 300 amps at your disposal... i never told anyone they have to have a gas mixer..suggest it maybe but i never flat out said you need one..if a mixer is "bunk" why do they even make them...when i have my "class" here in oct..i'll let everyone that attends try it both ways..we'll see after that... i've done aluminum both ways..i'll stick with my mixer thank you to all...have a nice day.. ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Pistols, tig torches or just tie you both up out back and let the goat kick ya til midnite?If someone other than me would like to chime in here, please do. I am a certified welding inspector and am currently on an AWS sub-committee for track welding. Which as you all know means nuthin'.The Navy can use 100% Helium, cuz they got all the damn money. 100% Argon is what the rest of us poor welders generally use. The trick to aluminum is to dump heat into it faster than the material can suck it away. Aluminum dissipates heat 3-5 times faster than steel. A gas with good ionizing skills is the ticket. Amps is good too. But the real key is a procedure that best utilizes the equipment you're using. If you have to weld aluminum over 3/8" the real answer is MIG - MIG - MIG !!!!!!! Tig is the most inefficient process for welding. 60% of the heat generated by TIG is lost to the atmosphere. A good argument for you job shop welders. Look around the shop at the $100k dollars of CNC machine equipment and then look at the $6.45 worth of antiquated welding gear in your corner and then go slap your boss.Weldtek
Reply:I use a mixer everyday when welding with various fluxcore wires.  It works great.  When I was welding aluminum for Government satellite dishes I didn't use a mixer.  I used pre-mixed gas.  In my humble opinion, either way is great depending on personal preference and the equipment that you have at your disposal.  I think that most people will agree with me when I say that the greatest assets that you can have is the ability to be flexible and the desire to learn.
Reply:i never told anyone they have to have a gas mixer..suggest it maybe but i never flat out said you need one..if a mixer is "bunk" why do they even make them...
Reply:elder i have to hand it to ya..your as passionate about your craft as i am...a gas mixer is probably not in the general public's budget i agree..but it does a world of good on this end.. ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:So what about the penetration???? Is half really good enough????"Wherever you go....there you are"
Reply:Originally Posted by orphan68So what about the penetration???? Is half really good enough????
Reply:Originally Posted by riley mcmillanThe weld is from one side only.  Lets say we form up a pan.  The inside edges of the corner touch and we fill up the corner.  Lets say we get enough penetration so that there is a smooth inside.  sometimes the inside will flow together but most of the time even though the weld penetrates through there is what is called an oxide fold.  It actually looks like a crack but if you cut a cross section it is not a crack.  When welding a steel corner like that it makes a smooth nugget on the inside.  To get that smoothness in stainless you need to shield with argon on the other side of the weld.
Reply:Weldtek, yes I agree any thing 3/8" and above (aluminum) is better to mig. I posted some pics of 1/2 on another thread just to show people it could be done, but yes mig would be the better choice[/QUOTE]Hey Elder don't shoot me I'm only the piano player! I'm with ya 100%, I figgered you was just demo'ing, I just had to throw my 2cents at it. Matter of fact, how about reposting the fillet weld from the end view so people can see how the legs of the weld are even top and bottom.  Thanks.Weldtek
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsteri'm sorry this question got "lost in the sauce"but with stainless or steel a back purge is a must in that situation..its just the air around the back that causes the problem..from the outside it is a problem...why cant you weld the outside?...zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by riley mcmillanI'm not describing this well enough.  I am welding from the outside and the inside is where the penetration comes through.  This is aluminum I am talking about.  Let's say the pan is made of 1/8th aluminum and the inside edges touch and that leaves a 1/8th 90 degree vee to fill up.  It would properly be called a fillet weld.  More than complete penetration is desireable because grinding and sanding is sometimes called for.  The inside of the weld where the penetration comes through is where the material sometimes flowes together in a continuous nugget and other times you can see a line where the inside edges touched.On cold rolled or hot rolled steel I can always get a pretty continuous smooth nugget without purging.  On stainless argon purging is necessary for the material to flow together
Reply:[QUOTE=Hey Elder don't shoot me I'm only the piano player! I'm with ya 100%, I figgered you was just demo'ing, I just had to throw my 2cents at it. Matter of fact, how about reposting the fillet weld from the end view so people can see how the legs of the weld are even top and bottom.  Thanks.[/QUOTE] I aint shootin you, I appreciate your input and comments. Your posts are always interesting and informative.  As for the end pics of the fillets, well I took all those plates back into work today and threw them in the scrap bin, as i figured i was done with them. i will see if they are still there on Monday when I go in ( doubtful they will still be there as I work Mon thru Thurs),