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I'm a hack at welding, but I'm a pretty detailed computer geek. I really like programming. I just finished a tubenotcher update click here. (Latest iteration in the works is a round tube that mates to the corner of a square tube.) I've often thought of creating an online welding simulator, but my estimates are that it's a crazy huge amount of programming time. I'm thinking of a welding simulator to let you practice setting up a stick / MIG / TIG machine or fuel gas rig, learning some safety tips and begin running practice beads. all in the virtual world. I would propose using two USB mice (no easy programming task that...) One hand for TIG or Oxy/Acetylene torch, the other for the feeder rod. Obviously only one mouse required for Stick or MIG.Uses 3D game / graphic technology. Create the bead / heat in 3 D space.Dial in your hood (screen darkness...) Simulate flip or light sensative.Output could be a simple visual weld bead.. Or you could receive an evaluation for consistency of movement, accuracy, size of arc gap, correct angle alignment of inputs, etc...Its a training tool.. what's cool is there is no cost for consumables.. Argon, Rod, Tungsten, Elecrodes, Fuel Gas, Oxy, MIG wire... zippo for cost. No cost for steel, aluminum, Stainless, titanium.. The only real cost is a second USB mouse and a decent computer with graphics card and output. No worries about safety. No burns anyplace. And hey, you don't have to grind / sand all mill scale off! You want the mill scale gone, zap its gone.Its all doable, BUT.. and here is the big BUT.. there is a huge committment for programming hours.. I'm guessing 300 to 400 programming hours to get the thing right, and that's just for flat / horizontal weld work. No simple task this one. The other problem is taking real world feedback and forcing that response into a mathematical model.. That really means lots and lots of time talking to experienced welders and lots of testing to match the virtual world to the real world. It would be way way cool, but I just can't remotely justify the cost / time involved. I'm sure it would be worth it to save the world on consumables, but there is no way to monetize that. You guys are welders. What would you bid per hour on a job that would take you 400 man hours? If your customers said, hey that would be really cool, would you do if for free?I know the big shops are selling hardware simulator systems for the really big bucks (I think they go for $40K a unit or something like that...) That's not really what I'm thinking about.. I'm thinking about a system that anybody can use, preferrably online with common available hardware (a computer and a couple of USB mice.)For anyone who would respond "Great idea, go for it".. the question is how much would you be willing to invest ($$) behind those words. Yeah, with your own real money.Any thoughts from the gallery? Comments, suggestions, opinions? Any potential investors out there, who want to get involved in an interesting project at the ground floor?thanks to all for your input.zip...
Reply:Zip,My thoughts are purely from a consumer view.I would be interested in a TIG welding simulator only if it was affordable, realistic and if it would actually translate to real world experience. I wouldn't invest any money if the simulator was simply a mouse in each hand. I doubt if many people would want to pay much for a MIG simulator since they could simply purchase an cheap 110Volt welder off Craigslist/E-bay (or Harbor Freight) and learn the real thing.I like the idea of a welding simulator. The logistics of making it realistic to real world application are significant. Accurately simulating all the variables is kind of mind boggling! This would be especially true for a TIG simulator (Torch, Filler Rod, Foot Pedal).Just my thoughts.
Reply:maybe you should invent google first, so you can see if anyone else has already made a welding simulator. Too late, google and welding simulators already exist.
Reply:After a stay at a Holiday Inn last night, I think a TIG one would be the best focus. As for controls, nuts to the double mouses, meese, mice....whatever. Go with two Wii controllers. Hell, sell as a controller set. A 1/8 weld rod that's got a thin wire and usb plug in, a tablet so you could have rod and tungsten touch sensitivity, and a TIG torch handle controller with the Wii controller electronics in it to sense the movement. USB foot peddle too. Put an IR sensor in a welding helmet so the your head position affects your view. $hit, while we're at it, put the screen in where the helmet lens is. Little LCD display. Would make it more real as it would emulate the helmet view more realistically. Burn a wad of paper in you lap for full affect! Hit Miller, Lincoln, or Linde for sponsor money. If they get on board, more investors will fall in line. Ok, I think that about solves it, an more questions? PS- I'll hold the patent on the above ideas, and you're all witness to it being posted here by me. All rights wronged 2010. Be happy to license the idea for the peripherals to you, for a fee/%, of course. Right....where was I....a yes.....global warming.......... God I need my shop back 200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:http://www.lincolnelectric.com/vrtex360/problem is when you start talking about VR cost gets high. the idea is that beginner welders basically just waste electrodes and scrap metal so if you do the first say few days worth of training on a simulator you'll get up to speed faster and the diagnostics let you know what you need to improve.I tried the lincoln system and while it isn't "photo realistic" and all it will show you how to lay a good bead, or if you use good technique it will reflect it. only for beginners thoughWelding EngineerCertified Scrap Producer
Reply:Originally Posted by pulsermaybe you should invent google first, so you can see if anyone else has already made a welding simulator. Too late, google and welding simulators already exist.
Reply:sorry it's already been done... wii controller operates a full sized robotic crane... some folks out of Australia did it. Originally Posted by bert the welder. Go with two Wii controllers. Hell, sell as a controller set. A 1/8 weld rod that's got a thin wire and usb plug in, a tablet so you could have rod and tungsten touch sensitivity, and a TIG torch handle controller with the Wii controller electronics in it to sense the movement.
Reply:To the best of my knowledge there is a place in CT. that makes a welding simulator very similar to what you are talking about.'Mike
Reply:You guys are a tough crowd. Yes, I am very well aware that there exist accurate welding simulators out there for big bucks. That's really not what I'm talking about. What I'm really thinking about is a 'digital simulator / tester' to get the user to get in the practice of indepent motions of left hand feed, right hand torch for TIG welding. Something that anybody can do for an absolute minimum of $$ investment (say approx $5.00 or so) Only investment required is a second mouse. How many folks out there have access to a high dollar welding simulator? Not many, unless you work in a large welding school environment. The initial expense doesn't make any sense for independent folks. What I'm thinkiing of anybody can go click on a web site and start virtual welding away, without piece cost.Is there a huge difference in independ left hand feed if you are holding rod or a mouse? Yes, but is it huge enough that you can't get a direct benefit from teaching your wrist, arm, elbow, shoulder that its an independ operator of your right hand? As for the google/ simulator comments.. in this day and age with communication being what it is.. besides new 'inventions' there is a huge opportunity for ideas that look at current trends gone wrong and improve upon them. E.G... Lets take on the market of customer to customer online sales. Yahoo classified ads started out as a great idea, poorly implemented, didn't last long. Ebay has done much better. but...recent developments in their customer satisfaction / cost model tell me that medium has at best a ten year life. Its a good idea, slowly going awry, as the ebay managements folks are not focused on their customer and just a little bit too greedy.. (Want proof? Ebay stock price is right now $26.55 / share.. come back here in five years, check the price...)With the "google/ others have done it" conversation, are you saying because somebody else offers welding services in your town, that its not appropriate for someone else to start up the same business? I was hoping to bring welding stuff to the average joe, working on his own dime. You've pretty much convinced me there may be better opportunities to pursue. I will say I do appreciate the view and comments of others. Apologies if you sense a bit of an attitude. I will also say no offense is intended with anything I've written. Many thanks for your feedback...--zip
Reply:Originally Posted by zipzitYou guys are a tough crowd. Yes, I am very well aware that there exist accurate welding simulators out there for big bucks. That's really not what I'm talking about. What I'm really thinking about is a 'digital simulator / tester' to get the user to get in the practice of indepent motions of left hand feed, right hand torch for TIG welding. Something that anybody can do for an absolute minimum of $$ investment (say approx $5.00 or so) Only investment required is a second mouse. How many folks out there have access to a high dollar welding simulator? Not many, unless you work in a large welding school environment. The initial expense doesn't make any sense for independent folks. What I'm thinkiing of anybody can go click on a web site and start virtual welding away, without piece cost.Is there a huge difference in independ left hand feed if you are holding rod or a mouse? Yes, but is it huge enough that you can't get a direct benefit from teaching your wrist, arm, elbow, shoulder that its an independ operator of your right hand? As for the google/ simulator comments.. in this day and age with communication being what it is.. besides new 'inventions' there is a huge opportunity for ideas that look at current trends gone wrong and improve upon them. E.G... Lets take on the market of customer to customer online sales. Yahoo classified ads started out as a great idea, poorly implemented, didn't last long. Ebay has done much better. but...recent developments in their customer satisfaction / cost model tell me that medium has at best a ten year life. Its a good idea, slowly going awry, as the ebay managements folks are not focused on their customer and just a little bit too greedy.. (Want proof? Ebay stock price is right now $26.55 / share.. come back here in five years, check the price...)With the "google/ others have done it" conversation, are you saying because somebody else offers welding services in your town, that its not appropriate for someone else to start up the same business? I was hoping to bring welding stuff to the average joe, working on his own dime. You've pretty much convinced me there may be better opportunities to pursue. I will say I do appreciate the view and comments of others. Apologies if you sense a bit of an attitude. I will also say no offense is intended with anything I've written. Many thanks for your feedback...--zip
Reply:Originally Posted by Metarinkahttp://www.lincolnelectric.com/vrtex360/problem is when you start talking about VR cost gets high. the idea is that beginner welders basically just waste electrodes and scrap metal so if you do the first say few days worth of training on a simulator you'll get up to speed faster and the diagnostics let you know what you need to improve.I tried the lincoln system and while it isn't "photo realistic" and all it will show you how to lay a good bead, or if you use good technique it will reflect it. only for beginners though
Reply:Zipzit, Like I hope I expressed by my post, I like your idea and understand the angle you're coming from. I thought in terms of the Wii controllers cause people would like them. Like they like steering wheels for car games. I think above the market to people actually wanting to learn to weld, you get those that are into moto-sport. "Games" that you get to weld up your own NASCAR, or Spitfire, or bike, or robot for robot war games. The are hardcore gamers alone would burst to be able to brag they actually "built" their own Mech.But what the hell do I know, I just stick metal bits together200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:You might try an iphone or ipad version. Store is already set up to sell it, no mice to buy, you can use your fingers to control it. I'm not sure if either let you use two fingers at the same time, though.I know it isn't an exact 1-to-1 with using your fingers, but close enough.
Reply:If you could include little heat modules in the gloves, the you could actually burn yourself if you get your hands too close. lol.Seriously, I think welding simulators are great for training existing welders, but trying to teach new welders, they are unaware of the environmental conditions and might develop poor habits that do not translate very well to the real environment. The experienced welder should already have those trained in and will be less likely to develop bad habits.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldIf you could include little heat modules in the gloves, the you could actually burn yourself if you get your hands too close. lol.Seriously, I think welding simulators are great for training existing welders, but trying to teach new welders, they are unaware of the environmental conditions and might develop poor habits that do not translate very well to the real environment. The experienced welder should already have those trained in and will be less likely to develop bad habits.
Reply:Originally Posted by joedirt1966Zip,My thoughts are purely from a consumer view.I would be interested in a TIG welding simulator only if it was affordable, realistic and if it would actually translate to real world experience. I wouldn't invest any money if the simulator was simply a mouse in each hand. I doubt if many people would want to pay much for a MIG simulator since they could simply purchase an cheap 110Volt welder off Craigslist/E-bay (or Harbor Freight) and learn the real thing.I like the idea of a welding simulator. The logistics of making it realistic to real world application are significant. Accurately simulating all the variables is kind of mind boggling! This would be especially true for a TIG simulator (Torch, Filler Rod, Foot Pedal).Just my thoughts.
Reply:Zip,Think you hit the nail on the head with your first comment. "I'm a much better computer programmer than I am a welder".I think if you had a better grasp of what's involved with tig welding, you'd better understand the difficulty in building a "simulator". Tig welding is at least 50% motor skill. How do you teach feeding a rod with a mouse?How do you teach keeping the filler in the covering gas?How do you simulate a pedal with a mouse?etc, etc, etc (I could go on and on but I hope you get the idea)To me, this is just another "hairbrained" idea from a non-welder.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by AltobeI had a chance to use this simulator at a demo put on by Lincoln at the local community college. It works well and while it is not the real thing I can see it's usefulness in teaching folks that have never welded before.I was kind of surprised to find out it lists for around $46,000. Yikes
Reply:I think the welding simulator Lincoln has is an amazing piece of work.I've had a few chances to practice with it.As far as making your own at a low cost, I wish you the best of luck in the cost vs realism ratio.I know for a fact that Lincoln tried to make these as cost efficient as possible, and with a $46k price tag there is VERY little profit margin on the sale of them.CWI, CWE, CST for Miller, Lincoln, Thermadyne, Hypertherm & ESABMillermatic 350PLincoln Invertec 205 AC/DCVictor combo torchESAB PCM 1125 |
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发表于 2021-9-1 00:32:28