Stitch Pattern

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For lack of any other word(s), I just can't get the "row of dimes" stitch pattern down. I am using a MM 210 mig welding 1/8" wall square tubing and .035 wire shielded by 75/25 Argon. If I push the gun, it burns through. If I move the gun side to side...it burns through. Unless I pull the gun in a straight line, I burn through. My welds all seem strong enough, but they end up looking like a bead of caulk at the joints. What am I doing wrong?
Reply:You need to turn your amperage down most likely, more wire speed and faster moving may also help but I am going to say your amperage is too high. Might try .023 wire too for lighter steel.
Reply:Originally Posted by PookieFor lack of any other word(s), I just can't get the "row of dimes" stitch pattern down. I am using a MM 210 mig welding 1/8" wall square tubing and .035 wire shielded by 75/25 Argon. If I push the gun, it burns through. If I move the gun side to side...it burns through. Unless I pull the gun in a straight line, I burn through. My welds all seem strong enough, but they end up looking like a bead of caulk at the joints. What am I doing wrong?
Reply:Yup, I agree. The stack of dimes look is severely overrated in the MIG process. It is much better to not do it and have a stronger joint. Beads can look good with a slight ripple or no ripple at all. FWIW, the MM210 runs way better on .030 wire.
Reply:Woa woa woa....You can get the row of dimes without having to use the "tack welding method".Search for ZTFab´s welds using his MIG...You´ll have to do a circular motion with the gun. And yes I agree, instead of going for the "look" of the weld first try to acquire the full strenght of it, beauty will come next...If you´re blowing through you need to use less wirespeed and/or voltajeMy Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3   4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:I think the 3rd and 4th posts don't know what you mean.  Elvergon is right, use a circular pattern and probably turn your heat down a little until you get the hang of it.  What settings are you running now?  I run 25/530 on most everything on a 251mmDewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Originally Posted by littlefuzzI think the 3rd and 4th posts don't know what you mean.  Elvergon is right, use a circular pattern and probably turn your heat down a little until you get the hang of it.  What settings are you running now?  I run 25/530 on most everything on a 251mm
Reply:You don't need the row of dimes.  If you weave, as in weld the two pieces together, you wil get a bettter weld than going down the middle like you do with a stick weder.  Your "Heat" or "amps" is your wire speed.  Turn the wire speed down or weave.  Adjust voltage to get a perfect bead.  You can weave like this VVVVVVV, or ZZZZZZ, or ((((((((, or overlapping O's.  I use the circles.  First pass in front of the puddle, next through, ahead, through......  If you are doing a fillet, going on the up side of the O in the forward direction will get the best penatration.  SO if you are going left to right, the circles will be  counterclock wise.  I find I can run a lot more "heat" this way. Try it.DavidLast edited by David R; 05-01-2007 at 06:07 AM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Something is not right here. I have the same set up (machine, wire, gas) and you should be able to weld 16gauge sheet metal without burning thru. On 1/8" tubing you can but weld it with a gap and get full pen in one pass. Were you running flux core before and leave the polarity at en? The wire should be positve. Generally speaking, if you are pushing the wire you will get less pen, as you have some puddle out in front of the wire, but you stated the opposite??? Something I heard about 15 years ago: "A pretty weld is not necessarily a good weld". Master the process first so you yourself know when the weld is sound, then worry about the appearance.Man invented metal, he can do whatever he wants with it.KMAC
Reply:Originally Posted by jamlitHey littlefuzz, I don't know about the 3rd post but I do know alittle about the 4th post. DDA52 is a certified high pressure welder who has his welds xrayed. I think he might know about weld penetration and looks. I spent most of my early learning trying to make my welds look factory with max penetration. I think the dimes look is great but time should spent achieving solid welding before going for the dimes look. ZTfab does do an excellent job on weld appearance and penetration. I have started playing around with trying to get this look with OK success but I am glad I knew how to weld first.
Reply:Originally Posted by PookieMy welds all seem strong enough, but they end up looking like a bead of caulk at the joints. What am I doing wrong?
Reply:Originally Posted by littlefuzzI wasn't trying to say he didn't know what he was talking about, Rojodiablo said that you get the "stack of dimes" effect from multiple tacks on top of each other (that's what I understood him to say anyway) and that's not true.  I understood DDA52 to agree with him.  I definitly believe you need penetration over appearance, once you get good the appearance comes naturally.  Sorry if yall took it the wrong way, that's not what I was going for.
Reply:I shoulda stated what I was agreeing with.  Jamlit, I appreciate the backup, but I am not a pressure vessel weldor....although I have done a little tiny bit of it..enough to know it would drive me nuts. My main deal is structural, and yes, some of those get x-rayed as well.What I was meaning to say was I have seen how these rock crawlers and such do the stitch and it is nowhere near a sound weld. I would work on a sound weld first and appearance dead last. When you know what you are after with the root and penetration, then you can work on the visual stuff. The guts are what is more important anyway. The MIG stitch welds look good to the untrained eye, but to those that know what a cold lap looks like, they are like fingernails on the chalk board. The welds may hold up just fine, but they should never be held up as a "This is how you should do it" example. They are completely incorrect in procedure. Now, I am sure that is gonna pizz off some rock crawlers and truck builders, that is unfortunate. I will stand by my statement. No CWI would pass work like some of the production work I have seen truck builders pass off as good welding. Row upon row of cold tacks is not an approved welding technique, no matter how well it will hold up.The MM210 is a very easy unit to dial in. It will go down to 20 gauge very easily without having to really pay much attention to technique. With small wire and paractice, I have heard of 24 gauge being semi easy. I would much rather see a bunch of welds like this one, than stacked tacks any day. While this weld is not as perfect as it could be, the guts are sound...that is what counts. Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by elvergonIf you´re blowing through you need to use less wirespeed and/or voltaje
Reply:Hmmmmm..................my door chart says 3/40 for .035.  Tell you what...I'll pop out later and fire it up and see what I get with .035.
Reply:DDA52.  Nice looking weld.  That is what I go after.  Sometimes they even come out that way.  ONE deep peneatrating solid bead the right size.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Thanks, David. It isn't perfect, but that is what I would rather look at. Equal legs and no undercut are preferable, IMO. All those gaps between the stacks just mean weak spots, unless you really build up the weld and then you are wasting metal and pouring way too much heat into the joint.If I want really nice looking and super strong, I like using spray transfer when possible. This pic is of .030 C-8 spray from a playing around session. It isn't perfect either, but you get the idea and the look. Attached Images
Reply:You don't need to trigger weld to get "that" look either. The technique has been described many times. I personally like the push forward a 1/2", then back up a 1/4" and let it fill out, then push forward a 1/2", blah,blah,blah--- Attached Images
Reply:if u ask me spray is the way.  if ya can
Reply:Lorenzo demonstrated all 3 ways with his machine last Sat.... I like it!Dont mean I'll get one though.. ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Using a trigger weld  method (if that's what we're calling it), when using the short circuit mode of transfer, to actually run a bead is not really a good idea. It's pretty much the same as placing a ton of tack welds. the heat is minimal, the fusion is poor, penetration is inconsistent. One of the most common places for welds to fail are at the stop and start points.... so how could anyone feel that "trigger welding" is anything but a series of stops and starts.There is no reason you should not be able to weld 1/8 tube without burning through... What are the settings on the machine.... wire speed, volts gas flow... I just pulled up the panel for your machine, or at least a new one. The wire speed is approx 66.5 IPM (inches per minute) for every value of 10 on the wire speed control. You can check this by pulling the trigger on your machine and timing the feed for 15 sec, measure the amount of wire that has been fed and times that by 4..... this will tell you how many inches per minute a particular value will feed.The volts.... it only says the max ocv and that is 34.5. So assuming that the start of the scale is 0 the value of each tap is 5 volts.... you would need a probe to check the OCV for sure at each value on the volt control.Using this as a guide, and that is if I am right in thinking how everything relates then you should be at #4 on the volts which should be approx 20V and for the wire you should be at just shy of 2.5 which should be approx 150 IPM. Check the feed rate like I described above but those are some rough starting points you'll probably have to fine tune the wire a bit.Also I run fore hand and back hand for shortcircuit.... I run fore hand for spray._________________Chris
Reply:PS..... Tek is right and his bead shows it you DO NOT need to do the "trigger welding" thing to get the look..... it's in the technique._________________Chris
Reply:We need an edit button..... I am incorrect with regard to the volt portion of my post #21.... I don't have time to fix it just yet so I'll get back to it..._________________Chris
Reply:Originally Posted by littlefuzzI wasn't trying to say he didn't know what he was talking about, Rojodiablo said that you get the "stack of dimes" effect from multiple tacks on top of each other (that's what I understood him to say anyway) and that's not true.  I understood DDA52 to agree with him.  I definitly believe you need penetration over appearance, once you get good the appearance comes naturally.  Sorry if yall took it the wrong way, that's not what I was going for.
Reply:Good info guys, I am into the rock crawling thing right now & see a lot of what appears to be "trigger welding" on some vehicles out there.  When we built our car we went for strength first, appearance second.  Sure wish I could make my welds look like some of you guys.  Nice examplesOriginally Posted by RojodiabloI am DEAD ON with what I am saying. There are guys who set the amps waaay up high, and then stitch, or trigger weld with a mig gun.And if ever there were a bunch of guys who do it, it is the blingy chopper guys and the offroad crowd.If you can stand to wade through the 9 miles of turd, go to Dezertrangers.com, and search trigger welding or stitch welding. To stitch weld, you set the amps at say 8 for a miller 175. You set the speed slow, around 3. Then, you hit the trigger. BLAP! Again .BLAP! Again.... looks like a row of stacked dimes. The guys who are really good at it, you can hardly tell it wasn't tigged. The problem with it is the cold start, and the burn thru on the bottom edge of the individual tacks. The "grab" of each tack is not equal, and so tube tears along the weld very often with this technique. The minute someone charges onto a nasty piece of desert at 80mph, and these welds start to come apart, they find out how they should have just pushed the mig gun straight, and then they wouldn't be walking back to camp.
Reply:I'm pretty new at this stuff myself but I think Pookie meant to say weave pattern not stitch pattern to get the stack of dimes.His post makes more sense when you use weave instead of stitch.At least to this newbie anyway.
Reply:Originally Posted by seamusI'm pretty new at this stuff myself but I think Pookie meant to say weave pattern not stitch pattern to get the stack of dimes.His post makes more sense when you use weave instead of stitch.At least to this newbie anyway.
Reply:Originally Posted by PookieAnd you would be correct.
Reply:Ok good, I think we're all on the same page now.    It shouldn't be hard to get the results you want but there's nothing wrong with a straight bead and it'll still look good.  It's all personal preference.DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Originally Posted by littlefuzzOk good, I think we're all on the same page now.    It shouldn't be hard to get the results you want but there's nothing wrong with a straight bead and it'll still look good.  It's all personal preference.
Reply:I spend all of my spare minutes today trying to get that stack o dimes with the mig.  First .045 wire in the 200 amp zone.  I had some luck with the ahead- back method.  Then I switched to .035 wire.  I had some luck with a <<<< patern and the torch angled more than usual.  My conclusion, Its not a good thing for me.  Mig welds should look smooth.  It was fun trying.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I did some checking on the voltage controller.... if you are wried 230V then then tap saettings are approx....1. 18V2. 21V3. 24V4. 26.5V5. 29.2V6. 32V7. 34.7VThe values may change due to the actual line voltage for example if you had 240V coming into then the voltages would be a bit higher. The MM251 with a continuious controller automatically adjusts to compensate for varying input voltage... so the volts you set it at are the volts you get._________________Chris
Reply:You know.....I still haven't made it to the shop to test the .035 settings.  Maybe tomorrow.