Twin turbo - 1 of many

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This is a T3 Twin turbo setup on a customers car. We currently have 4 to do. This particular setup is on a 402 stroker motor, small block, with all forged internals. It should scoot along nicely.  John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Nice as always! I'm still saving for mine!!!  Miller blue star 2eLincoln 175
Reply:Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!  What would a ballpark number be for a setup like that?
Reply:Yeiiii!Is he street racing? or is it maybe drifting? or just plain pleasure? But we would like to see the welds and tube bending, fitting, and tips If that is not secret 8-)And if you got time of course  gotta learn from the good guys in hereGreat job micro!My Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3   4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:Sweet!  Making me antsy to start buying parts for either a single 101mm or twin s300's.
Reply:Thanks Fear ! rednek - Ballpark just for the kit is around $5500 with the turbos. elvergon - He drag races and maybe a street race or two from time to time. If people aren't buying my kits, I don't like to show pictures. I've lost alot of sales and have had many people copy one of my single kits. So, I haven't done that again. That is why the pics are top up.  I'll post pics of my welds later. Thanks for the compliment! Supe - I hope you have 20 or 30,000 denaros for the chassis that will support that much power. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Are you over on ls1tech.com?  There have been many bad issues regarding turbo kits for the f-body cars.  It would be nice to find someone that is making one that has good fitment and is user friendly.Lots of toys.
Reply:I was over on 'tech and Tony and I had a falling out. Plus I don't like paying his monthly fees so he can go out and buy new vehicles every month. His pricing for advertising is ridiculous considering it's the same 1,000 people visiting his site every month. On top of that, I was a "free" help line for the newbies asking all their questions. I've sold more kits being OFF that site than being active on it. Thanks for the advice/compliment. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Ironically, I am one of the moderators over there.  You arent one of the flo-pro guys are you, or incon?Lots of toys.
Reply:I think you mean " HI-Flo" and NO i'm neither. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Oh OH roger that...but you kno...at last people who don´t know what´s going on will fail, and you will win lifetime clients If I had a car, and some bucks I´d go with ya  at least let´s see the welds !My Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3   4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:elvergon - Thanks, I hope to sell you one someday.  Here is a pic of my weld on a v-band assembly: John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Here is a pic of a weld on some exhaust...from some other shop. Needless to say, this was all junked.   I love having this picture for comparison purposes to my customers...John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Originally Posted by MicroZoneHere is a pic of a weld on some exhaust...from some other shop. Needless to say, this was all junked.   I love having this picture for comparison purposes to my customers...
Reply:Redhat - your welds are better than that. The picture is good for a laugh.  I guess the thought there was, "oh i'll just glob it on and it will stick." Thanks redhat!John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Here is a pic of one of the cages I made.  After some bashing yesterday.   And then one of the other ones as well.  The only place you can really see a steady bead (where possible) is where I reinforced the main frame.  Anyway, take a look.  And the other one:Let me know if they compare.I'm 21 and learningAvid 4wd enthusiastASE Master tech (Automotive), mechanic/fabricator by trade
Reply:Those look really rugged!John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Micro, whats so bad about them?I'm 21 and learningAvid 4wd enthusiastASE Master tech (Automotive), mechanic/fabricator by trade
Reply:Originally Posted by MicroZoneThanks Fear ! rednek - Ballpark just for the kit is around $5500 with the turbos. elvergon - He drag races and maybe a street race or two from time to time. If people aren't buying my kits, I don't like to show pictures. I've lost alot of sales and have had many people copy one of my single kits. So, I haven't done that again. That is why the pics are top up.  I'll post pics of my welds later. Thanks for the compliment! Supe - I hope you have 20 or 30,000 denaros for the chassis that will support that much power.
Reply:John...You need a positioner.. ..zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:redhat - I said "rugged" ...as in rough and tumble, that is good. Supe - I've seen stock suspended G's go deep into the 9's. Anything more than that is tons and tons of tweaking and lots of R&D time. Good luck.Zap - most turbo setup never have a straight pipe. It's a total of bends and combination of bends. A positioner would make it more tough...IMO. It would be like that old toy - it had the spirals and you had to twist around the wire without it buzzing. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Zap - most turbo setup never have a straight pipe. It's a total of bends and combination of bends. A positioner would make it more tough
Reply:please tell me youre not putting a t3 housing on a 402...
Reply:Don't you worry about that...I've been doing this turbo stuff as long as they've made Mustangs. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:nice looking work john, I see you left out the pictures of the real top secret stuff but it still looks very cool. Keep up the great work and hope you sell a bunch.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.Originally Posted by MicroZoneDon't you worry about that...I've been doing this turbo stuff as long as they've made Mustangs.
Reply:No, certainly not too much back pressure. They make a variety of turbine housings and turbine wheels for a T3. As long as you can calculate the effective air demand for a given motor (in cubic inches) you can match a respective turbo with it's compressor map for a given boost pressure. If you've done it enough times, like I have, it becomes second nature.  I can give you an example if you'd like to see for future reference?John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Hmm... for "reference", what turbo's would you recommend for a twin-turbo Mopar 440?I'm thinking a couple Mopar 2.2 turbo's would suffice, but I'm sure something custom would be better tuned for the motor.I'm only looking for around 5 psi and able to run up to 5500 RPMs.
Reply:Coronet - Let me run the calculations and I'll get right back to you.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Coronet -    The 440 c.i. motor air consumption will be 52 lbs./min. at 5,500 r.p.m. This means at 5 psi you will have a PR of 1.34.     Looking at several compressor maps, without going into the surge line or the choke line, your best choices would be either a pair T3/T04E 60 trim or a pair of T4's in either a 60 or 61mm compressor wheel. The 61 wheels would allow you more room to grow.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Awesome, thanks!  5500 might be a bit high now that I think about it.  I'll be running a mild cam, 5000 +/- is probably more realistic.  I'm not really going for a ton of power, it's more for a fun factor and maybe better fuel mileage for running around.
Reply:Welcome Coronet. Even at 5,000 r.p.m. your PR is the same. Those turbos will still work. Don't go smaller than suggested, otherwise you get into the surge limit for the turbo.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:thanks!  I see there is also an A/R # listed aside from the Trim #, such as "garrett 60 trim full T4 turbo with A/R .58" is there a certain # there I should look for?Last edited by coronet440; 05-15-2007 at 01:35 PM.
Reply:The A/R is obtained when dividing the interior area of the turbine where the inner walls are found, through the turbine housing radius from the center to the tongue A small A/R indicates a small interior volume in the small turbine and a large A/R indicates a greater volume. At a minimum A/R the motor's response is produced at small revolutions per minute but at high revolutions we will not achieve an adequate caudal. You should always find a compromise between achieving the lowest response possible and have enough caudal at high revolutions.In other words, find a qualified turbo retailer that can calculate the correct A/R needed for the engine...or just ask me.  You would want to use a different A/R on a street car versus setting a turbo up for a full out race car.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:maybe if it were only 1 t3 the compressor wheel would run out of air..but ad another an you got plenty..unless your going to run  huge boost...
Reply:Originally Posted by MicroZoneCoronet -    The 440 c.i. motor air consumption will be 52 lbs./min. at 5,500 r.p.m. This means at 5 psi you will have a PR of 1.34.     Looking at several compressor maps, without going into the surge line or the choke line, your best choices would be either a pair T3/T04E 60 trim or a pair of T4's in either a 60 or 61mm compressor wheel. The 61 wheels would allow you more room to grow.
Reply:LSX - Not to sound rude but what you think and what you know, are two different things. I know that every motor has a specific air demand at a specific RPM. A motor is, after all, essentially an air pump...correct? Based on that, you can calculate the SPECIFIC needs for any motor and properly match a turbo or turbos to it. In this example, Coronet is asking about making power at 5,000 r.p.m. To make power at that range, it is crucial to match the correct turbo to the air demand of the motor. This is NOT simply, "oh I think these turbos will work good" and just slap them on, like most people do. I have many people who call me, who previously just threw money at their car, asking why it doesn't make any more power. GEE, I wonder why. They follow the trend on car forums, go off what other "internet experts" say and end up losing. On another note, I believe Mr. Harlan also winds his car up and beyond 6,500 r.p.m. - probably even close to 7,000+. If he would have consulted with Jose at ForcedInductions, Joe at Precision Turbo or even Rick at Turbonetics, he would have found out that 60-1's were WAY too wrong for his application. Every car guy wants bigger and better. Most times bigger is NOT better. Thanks for sharing your views but please do not lead this guy in the wrong direction.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:what i know is that a motor never acts the way math says it should...ever.  i do know that its the combination of parts that matter not any single part.  the thing is, ive learned that using calculations and formulas simply doesnt matter.  it gives an approxamation but in the end... doesnt mean squat with as many variables there are with these things.  a 440 will move so much air that the smaller turbos will struggle to keep up especially on a nice hot day.   ive also learned to never trust a power rating because thats only under the most perfect of circumstances.  you use the next size or 2 up to get what you need and to make up for changes in temp, altitude, exhaust temps, exhaust shape, flow, etc.  the list goes on.  i knw bigger isnt better...ie so big of a head unit that it doesnt spool til a much higher rpm. i do however think that a power goal should be chosen and then the next size or 2 up from that used to get that power goal reliably and easily.  have the motor do the least amount of work to reach your goals.sorry if i came on the way i did... i provided the link so he could read for himself how to choose whats right for him.  it is my opinion and only that. i guess i just see it differently, thats all.
Reply:WHAT?!A motor never acts the way math says it should?So, I guess the engineers at Comp Cams, Crane cams, Edelbrock, Diamond Pistons, J&E pistons, Eagle cranks, Garrett, Lunati and the MANY MANY other engine/parts/turbo manufacturers should just THROW out their calculators and use your theory of putting together a motors, parts, and turbos? Your turbo/engine sizing: "i do however think that a power goal should be chosen and then the next size or 2 up from that used to get that power goal reliably and easily"Wait until I call ALL these manufacturers and tell them they need to throw out their computers, calculations and CNC machines. Their overhead will shrink and I'll be a hero! Honestly LSX, you have much to learn. You think after 15 or so years of doing this that I'm doing it wrong?  Please teach me. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Burn.Micro, stfu and listen to me.  I am the expert here.jk man, jk. hahhahahaI'm 21 and learningAvid 4wd enthusiastASE Master tech (Automotive), mechanic/fabricator by trade
Reply:Red - gee thanks. It's not meant to be a burn but when you try to teach someone and they come back with black magic or i guess upon a star, it really makes you want to teach them more. Garrett is THE largest manufacturer IN THE WORLD of turbos. You think when GM, Subaru or Mitsubishi calls them up, to provide turbos for their factory cars, their Engineers say, " well, if you want to make 270hp, we should take our calculations and up size the turbo two times that and that should get you in the range for your car" ?  No. Doesn't happen. It's science and math...not magic.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:LSX, please don't take my posts wrong. I hope to teach you something. MATH is VERY important in many aspects of motorsports and performance. Take a look at these two pages, MATH is essential. The Compressor maps, pressure ratio, air volume and MANY other factors are all relative to ...yep, MATH. http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...o_tech102.htmlhttp://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...o_tech103.htmlDo you still think my math is the worst method for determining proper sizing of a turbo for an engine? John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:microzone, calm down, that was his opinion, your starting to sound *edit* tonyLast edited by MicroZone; 05-16-2007 at 06:34 PM.
Reply:Tony - I already stated that my purpose is to teach. It is almost apparent that LSX disagrees and that is fine. Again, my intention is to teach and not to degrade. Call me what you want, I enjoy teaching and sharing knowledge with others. If, when you read this, you have another conclusion, keep it to yourself. At times I know myself, Zap and a few others can be blunt. Sometimes the school of hard knocks is the best type of OJT.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Wait until I call ALL these manufacturers and tell them they need to throw out their computers, calculations and CNC machines. Their overhead will shrink and I'll be a hero! Honestly LSX, you have much to learn. You think after 15 or so years of doing this that I'm doing it wrongthats not blunt, or school of hard knocks, being a mod i thought better of you... what are you going to ban me for my opinion...come on, the above was just to dig at him.....tonyLast edited by tony j; 05-16-2007 at 07:04 PM.
Reply:I’m a Mechanical Engineering and just wanted to state that number crunching plays a fundamental role in any design be it turbo selection or electronic circuit design. Every single project starts with the constraints and calculations. Some people who don’t “know” will ALWAYS be out of the “know” because they chose not to “know”.This is a typical case of the right and wrong way to do things. Upsizing based on personal discretion is clearly wrong…. but hey… he’s got his own say.Micro, sometimes it just doesn’t pay to be nice and “try” to educate. There will always be those that always feel like they have to chime in when in reality they have no clue. I personally enjoy all your postings and work. I rarely post on here but LSX’s comments are clearly not true and I hate to see this type of junk spoil good work.
Reply:Hooray for math!Electric mechanical engineer in progress here!No doubt about anything Micro Said...cmon, us engineers (even thou those that didn´t study it) know that math and physics rule our world...My Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3   4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:Tony - I apologize if you think I came off sarcastic. It is tough to communicate over the internet and allow someone to understand exactly what your trying to relay. Yellow and Elvergon - you make our world go 'round. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:thanks, i really do enjoy reading your posts, i enjoy learning something new everyday, but usually its from my 2 year old......
Reply:I agree, do the math first & the project, regardless of what it is, will yield a better result than just guessing.Micro, I gotta say thanks for trying to share your knowledge, even if some people don't want to listen to it.  You will be hearing a lot from me when I come up with a project to utilize a turbo on. Skip