Why we use, what we use

admin

I have been noticing for some time now, that many times when someone brings a non "mainstream" technology up in a forum such as this, many times they are labled "nut-job" or something similiar. If someone tends to post primarily on a certain technology, it seems that we assume they must not practice any other. I have a different take on this. Quite franky I think we have more then enough Mig, Tig and SMAW people out there, so throwing another opinion into the mix is pretty boring and pointless. Figure most of these electric technologies have been around since at least 1943, so its covered....to death. I mean seriously....another "stack of dimes tig post with pictures ?? What I find facinating are the not commonly used technologies that in situations are much better suited to a particular job than the "big three". On the flip side there are people in the world, that just like to create chaos and want to appear as some kind of magician. So without this turning into some kind fight ( seriously guys...an internet fight??) what "not-so-common" welding technologies have you guys used for a particular project, and why?
Reply:It's not the fact that these other processes or techniques are being looked up on as "crazy" or "inferior" but more so the fact that when asked to provide details and/or proof of how the technique or process is/was used, no substantiated evidence or clear and concise detail is really ever given.Not only should members post differing techniques or processes but they should post, in explicit detail, the way in which to use them so that everyone is educated on proper procedure.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabIt's not the fact that these other processes or techniques are being looked up on as "crazy" or "inferior" but more so the fact that when asked to provide details and/or proof of how the technique or process is/was used, no substantiated evidence or clear and concise detail is really ever given.Not only should members post differing techniques or processes but they should post, in explicit detail, the way in which to use them so that everyone is educated on proper procedure.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Ok, so what "not-so-common" technologies have you used, and what for? Since thats the question being asked here
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabNone. I have no need at this moment to try and change what works for me. I use proven methods because they work..
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Ok, so your line of thinking is that if a technology isnt common nowdays, it isnt proven? Or is it more of a comfort level as the user? Not picking at all, just wondering where everyone comes from when they think about welding in general, their exposure level and such. Heck I dont even see much on plasma welding.....is it just that the majority of the welding is done on heavy pig iron for construction or????
Reply:I imagine the majority of folks on this board use pretty much the same tools- who can afford leading technology beyond the new offerings from Miller, LIncoln et al?In my world of Professional Photography we saw it with the dawn of the Digital Chips replacing Film. In the beginning it was very expensive and only the Top tier money making Pros could even afford to use it.Hobby folks and Pro Ams? No way. Film still offered a viable and affordable solution for the job.Now? Ha anyone can go buy a Camera and for about 800 bones you are shooting HD quality Video.and currently what we are seeing is the Future Past- Digital Capture then a negative made from the Digi File and back to the past in the Old School darkroom to make a print.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1I imagine the majority of folks on this board use pretty much the same tools- who can afford leading technology beyond the new offerings from Miller, LIncoln et al?In my world of Professional Photography we saw it with the dawn of the Digital Chips replacing Film. In the beginning it was very expensive and only the Top tier money making Pros could even afford to use it.Hobby folks and Pro Ams? No way. Film still offered a viable and affordable solution for the job.Now? Ha anyone can go buy a Camera and for about 800 bones you are shooting HD quality Video.and currently what we are seeing is the Future Past- Digital Capture then a negative made from the Digi File and back to the past in the Old School darkroom to make a print.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Ok so your going towards the thinking that its the up and coming technologies that are interesting or better?
Reply:Why we use, what we use?There are good reasons why a few processes have become dominant, and others have been left behind.Basically, cream rises to the top.Good Luck
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepWhy we use, what we use?There are good reasons why a few processes have become dominant, and others have been left behind.Basically, cream rises to the top.Good Luck
Reply:Perhaps another country will innovate something “better” that will shake up Miller and Lincoln like the Japanese auto makers did in the 70's and 80's.  The U.S. had to step up their game as it related to reliability, etc.  Too many times a company will rise up, become prominent, and then rest on their laurels and become complacent.  Who knows what lies on the horizon?  Technology is changing at an ever increasingly rapid pace.  In the mean time, I’ll watch, wait, and as ZTFab said, continue to use what has already proven to be effective.
Reply:Originally Posted by joedirt1966Perhaps another country will innovate something “better” that will shake up Miller and Lincoln like the Japanese auto makers did in the 70's and 80's.  The U.S. had to step up their game as it related to reliability, etc.  Too many times a company will rise up, become prominent, and then rest on their laurels and become complacent.  Who knows what lies on the horizon?  Technology is changing at an ever increasingly rapid pace.  In the mean time, I’ll watch, wait, and as ZTFab said, continue to use what has already proven to be effective.
Reply:i recently learned a tiny bit about forging metal and have been heating and  beating..am  planning to build a small propane forge...
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860. . . Have we gone from "craftsmanship" to git-r-done? . . .
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepYes, a long time ago.Git-r-done is where it's at. Good enough, fast enough, cheap enough - that's what matters. That's what makes a high  quality of life available to us commoners. What good is an ultra precision hand-crafted automobile that 's not afFordable?Git-t-done brings to the masses a life abundant with available and affordable luxuries and conveniences and labor-saving devices  that would have seemed unimaginable several generations ago.Good Luck
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860So the next question........is that the best for the long term? Or has it made us lazy as a society?
Reply:I use plenty of technology and stay on the forefront with a lot of things. CNC equipment, the latest parametric modeling software (SolidWorks), etc.....but when it comes to what I build, there is no need for expensive, exotic, or (sometimes) un-proven welding processes.GMAW and GTAW are more than sufficient for anything I currently do.
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepYes, a long time ago.Git-r-done is where it's at. Good enough, fast enough, cheap enough - that's what matters. That's what makes a high  quality of life available to us commoners. What good is an ultra precision hand-crafted automobile that 's not afFordable?Git-t-done brings to the masses a life abundant with available and affordable luxuries and conveniences and labor-saving devices  that would have seemed unimaginable several generations ago.Good Luck
Reply:+1 on post 18 of Bassboy and lets not forget how the portability of the new physically smaller units that often do the same or more than there predecessors. Things like dual voltage machines as well just make those old tried and true methods even more appealing. Even though the original arc and Mig weld process were quite good they had draw backs like anything else, like the mamouth sizes of the equipment, Technology may have not changes the process much but has made it more convenient and affordable. Most of us on here don't have the room, finances, and need for sub arc, and nuclear welding. However I'm sure some of the members here have been involved with some out of the norm processes and alloys that demand more than the average 7018. I also like to hear about new ways."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepYes, Myself I believe it's best for the long term.However, it's said that there exists a faction that thinks otherwise and would like to turn the clock back at least 1700 years or so.I guess I don't exactly understand the  "lazy" question.Good Luck
Reply:Originally Posted by bassboy1Have an inverter welder?  If so, that's relatively "new" technology.  ....Weld on a Syncrowave 200, then jump to a Dynasty 200, especially on less than perfect metal, and see if we are stuck using old technology.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Even forget cars, something as simple as a toaster, what percentage of the population knows how it works or could fix it? What I see are a group of people that in no way will ever help further society, simply because they dont even understand what we already have done, and unfortunately it seems to be the majority. Anyway this has gotten way off track, and so far the only person that has come up with a non mainstream technology they are starting to use, is the fellow with the forge. So what else ya got?
Reply:Funny thread: It's all covered already. Prime example-Schwinn bicycles. Used to be brazed frames, now welded. I still braze a few things, but it is not like 20 years ago when I had a white coated rod in my hands 3 days a week. Now, you pick the filler, and the torch is ready to go, just twist a dial for settings. And yes, a few frames are still brazed, especially lugged frames. But the welds are better, and they cost a lot less...... and so we see another old school method dying on the vine. I think a spear is a neat way to hunt, but a modern bow or rifle make it much more successful, and greatly increase chances of not losing the animals. So.... I tend to go with what is a sure fire thing.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:seems like the point of the op has gotten lost..he is asking ,perhaps out of curiousity, if anyone is using technologies other than contemporary welding methods..seems theres a lot of defensive responses about why the  currently mainstream methods are the best...Originally Posted by weldbeadseems like the point of the op has gotten lost..he is asking ,perhaps out of curiousity, if anyone is using technologies other than contemporary welding methods..seems theres a lot of defensive responses about why the  currently mainstream methods are the best...
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbeadseems like the point of the op has gotten lost..he is asking ,perhaps out of curiousity, if anyone is using technologies other than contemporary welding methods..seems theres a lot of defensive responses about why the  currently mainstream methods are the best...
Reply:I just stick to what I have been doing for the last 30 years...There is no need for the "Latest and Greatest" all the time...Remember the 'ol saying.."If it works then don't fix it"....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1It did get lost but with a little help from the OP:He asked about unproven technologies and then mentioned that he hasn't seen Plasma Welding which led me to infer he was asking about Newer technologies not processes like Forge weldingAlthough John Henry won against the Steam Hammer he died after holding his hammer.Craftsmanship is not dead.We use processes that are the most efficient for production  or we go out of business- been like that forever.Cavemen had to adapt to survive: The guy with the spear outlasted the guy with that beautiful hand crafted Wooden club.
Reply:I guess I didn't understand the OP's original question.If you look at history, technology is driven by NEED.Many of the technologies we use every day today, were developed to meet a "wartime" need or a "space race" need.I totally disagree with the suggestion that the machine manufacturers "dictate to the user" what machine/process best accomplishes the task for the end user.Like it or not, the small shopowner will never "drive" technology.  What he will do, is benefit from the "trickle down" effect of technology developed to meet a greater need.  Much of what we consider today as "mainstream technology" was in fact developed so that we could build better aircraft faster, better ships faster, etc, etc.If you want to look at the "leading edge" you need to at places such as NASA, the aircraft industry, the major shipyards, etc.  These are the companies/organizations that have the resources to explore new technology, not the mom and pop shop down the street.What gets me is the guy who comes on the board and "preaches" an old/new process as the best thing since soda crackers.  As ZT mentioned, it's not necessarily wrong but you better be prepared to back it up with data that's verifiable.Personally, and I'm probably a little older than most here, the advances in metalworking/metalforming technology over the last 50 years have been nothing short of phenomenal.  Anyone who's welded with a 330 a/bp tig welder and a Dynasty knows what I'm talking about.  That technology wasn't developed to meet "my needs" but rather the needs of a "larger industry".  I just happen to be the beneficiary.Here's just a few:Squarewave technologyAdvanced squarewave technologyWirefeed weldingPulsed mig/tigPlasma welding/cuttingCNCetc,etc,etcYou can go back to your "forge welding" if you want to "play around", but if it means getting the best product out the shop at the lowest cost, I'm going to use the best/latest technology available to me. I don't think that makes me "lazy", just "not dumb".The guy who uses the mentality that "we've always done it this way" is the guy who's going to be looking for a job in the not too distant future.  If you're not "moving forward" you'll get run over by the train.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:[QUOYou can go back to your "forge welding" if you want to "play around", but if it means getting the best product out the shop at the lowest cost, I'm going to use the best/latest technology available to me. I don't think that makes me "lazy", just "not dumb".i'm notmaking a living with this  . iwouldnt call myself a hobbyist. i dont feel that im playing around.  i  became fascinated with welding, and the puddle, and im learning what i can. so i move around and try different things.
Reply:Ok this is not heading the direction I was hoping for, which is probably my fault for making it unclear. All I was asking about was uncommon technologies, and what people use them for...thats it. Cant really use forge welding as an example of something thats not used, its done every day in industry, just not with a hammer and anvil. Nasa doesnt exsist like it was, which is too bad, a great engineering loss. The Aviation industry in terms of how an airframe is made hasnt changed a whole lot in the last 60 years, except for composites which is kind of out of place in a welding forum. The alloys have changed a bit for some parts, and the use of giant forgings ( how ancient ) for the center structures, other than that...still sheet, extrusions, castings, forgings, bolted, riveted, and welded together. So here is where I am coming from, a very educated, wise and highly respected aerospace engineer once gave be a tidbit of advise that changed the way I look at things. He said " A real engineer ( and anyone that fabricates is one to some extent ) only looks at the virtues and shortfalls of a process, never the vintage, in determining its suitability for a given situation". So anyway, still looking for people that work "outside the norm", just for fun, no need to get deffensive.
Reply:mako,All I can say is you must be living in a cave with no water, lights, or indoor plumbing if you think that todays aircraft are built the same way they were 50 years ago.NASA continues it's research in leading edge technologies.  Wind tunnel testing and particle accelerators are just a couple examples.  Medical discoveries created in outer space continue to evolve.How about the programs written for today's advanced welding machines?Man, to hear you talk, you'd think we were still still communicating by talking into two tin cans connected by a string.I really don't know what the whole intent of this thread was intended to be.  Technology.  Am I going back to producing my own acetylene in an acetylene generator like we did when I first started welding.  Hell no, I'll pick it up in a bottle at the LWS.  Am I going to stick weld a mig cart together.  Hell no.  I'm going to mig it which is quicker, faster, and yields better results.  Am I going to tig weld thinner aluminum with DC-.  Hell no, I'm going to use AC.That same guy who can't fix his toaster in his kitchen, may be the guy who writes the code for managing an electrical grid for an entire geographical area.  Does that make him useless to society?Now, if you really want to "explore", just do a search on Billy Mac's posts.  That guy, in just a couple years has managed to rewrite the laws of nature and the laws of physics.  You recon he's in line for a Nobel Peace Prize?Last edited by SundownIII; 07-17-2010 at 09:07 PM.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Hmmm well considering I work with the fellow from reynolds that developed the Al/Li alloys for the F-22 center section, I wouldnt say I am in a "cave". And the reason for this thread was to talk about something other than the common contemporary methods and why they are still used at times. Im sorry if that offends people, or somehow bothers them. I am in no way trying to say that what is common is inferior, just that maybe at times its not the best and that other methods shouldt not be forgotten just because they are not "main stream".Last edited by makoman1860; 07-17-2010 at 10:10 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Hmmm well considering I work with the fellow from reynolds that developed the Al/Li alloys for the F-22 center section, I wouldnt say I am in a "cave". And the reason for this thread was to talk about something other than the common contemporary methods and why they are still used at times. Im sorry if that offends people, or somehow bothers them. I am in no way trying to say that what is common is inferior, just that maybe at times its not the best and that other methods shouldt not be forgotten just because they are not "main stream".
Reply:For one reason being a job shop the high expenses of modern technology are very hard to justify.     second is every piece of "greatest invention to come into fabrication/welding in years" has left me with a bad taste in my mouth.would i like to friction stir weld aluminum,  SURE if there was any Profit in me investing in the equipment.   Would i like to laser weld thin stainless sure i would but again im not going to loose money at it.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Then cite something specific. The problem with your topic is that it is just too broad:"what "not-so-common" welding technologies have you guys used for a particular project, and why??"Forge welding?  a Lot of folks do it.so now I ask you exactly what do you consider "not-so-common" and Why????
Reply:mako- so you do work for a shop that deals with DoD? So more then a likely that you get to see different methods then the average job shop. But I have to say the title of your post is a bit misleading and kinda confrontational. I don't believe that you intended it to be that way, but for most that is how it comes across. most of the older technologies are not cost effective for the normal job shop, these are business owners who are trying to make ends meet in a very difficult economy. so having useless machines or other processes taking up space is not a good business practice. Now I realize you are not looking to find out why they don't deal  with those high tech or impractical processes and it's not a total issue with business practices. I would say most people on this forum don't deal with the exotic welding process, most would weld normal alloys all day every day for ever. To me, some of the processes that you are wanting people to discuss are not practical. As I have already said, further more you are wanting people to have a discussion with you about a processes that you don't seem to be overly familiar with, now before getting upset realize I am not slamming you, I am simply giving my opinion. As you have done multiple time though out this thread. If you do have  vast experience with these processes then why not share you knowledge so maybe others can learn from you instead of asking a very broad question.
Reply:Actually its an engineering lab where we develop engines and as a process writer for aerospace welding. Anyway point taken, usually when we gather in the lab, or at events with similiar groups we sit around and talk about all the different methods we have used for this project or that. Perhaps its a little bit of a different world and a bit confusing to someone not used to the same. So for that Im sorry, really. Didnt mean this to turn into a fight of any kind.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Actually its an engineering lab where we develop engines and as a process writer for aerospace welding. Anyway point taken, usually when we gather in the lab, or at events with similiar groups we sit around and talk about all the different methods we have used for this project or that. Perhaps its a little bit of a different world and a bit confusing to someone not used to the same. So for that Im sorry, really. Didnt mean this to turn into a fight of any kind.
Reply:mako- I don't believe you intended for this to turn out the way it did, but hey things happen, most labs and engineers are a little different anyway, not always in a bad way. Maybe you can start this thread now, since all of the BS is out of the way. whats you favorite process? and why? can we start it that way? who knows maybe people will chime in when they have an example to follow.
Reply:We abandon old proven methods based more on fads and ease of use  than improving quality...examples:Pan X B & W  fillm, Kodachrome color film, and Tube amplifiers for most audio reproduction and in welding  copper wound armatures.  All replaced with digital gear,  Both work,  the old way often is much more labor and materials intense while the new way is quick and easy.  What you give up is the quality of the finished product.   Digital amplifers are perfect, perfectly harsh and exact... while tube amps are smooth and  very easy to enjoy for hours at a time.  It is an ongong movement, the way to go is to embrace the new way and don't fight it,  but retain your old way for when you must have that higher quality and  sense of artistic satisfaction and pride in your work.   The world knows this, and  will pay for that quality... for ex: nobody will give you ten cents for used solid state amps but old hard wired Tube amps are generally valued in the thousands in fine condition.  I doubt anyone will "collect" inverter welders... but a good SA 200 will always be worth the bucks. Some over genralization and artistic liberty in the above statement, forgive me, I am an analog kinda' guy who got drug into the 21st Century kicking and screaming  however, U can reach me on my cell or email.Last edited by PapaLion; 07-18-2010 at 03:54 AM.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Well, I dont think I have a favorite method, it all seems to depend on the application. But an example I guess could be a linkage we were working on to control engine movement. Basicly a tie rod type affair about 26" long with an eyelet at each end for a 5/8" bolt to pass through at right angles to the linkage. Several different welded configurations were tried, each failing in fatigue ( BTW the materials are 4140 for the eyelets and 4130N for the tube that formed the link ).  The parts had been Tig welded with ER70s-2 filler, and manufacturing was not capable at the time of performing any kind of controlled subsuquent post weld heat treatment for that part. Lab produced O/A welded parts passed testing, but it was too difficult for manufacturing to do as none of the production weldors were well versed at the practice. As a simpler method was sought, we used "slip in" eyelets and brazed the assembly with a nickel silver alloy. This performed very well, and could be accomplished by the welding department with their standard OA equipment and little training. It also happenend to be the way Charles Taylor constructed the connecting rods for the 1903 Wright Flyer engine. Papa Lion, Tubes arent dead, they are used quite often when a true analog signal is needed for data aquisition. Like many technologies, more times than not they are superceeded not by one that has more capability, but rather one that can do most of the same work more effeciently. Seems to be the development trend with anything, first see what you are capable of doing ,then see how cheap you can do it and still get by. I guess thats why everything has a "golden" age, the time at the height of development, and before the slip into competitive marketing and cost cutting reach other markets. Personally I think electronics had their golden age back in the late 1990's. back when a cell phone was bigger, but never died and actually made calls ( when you could find reception ) without a special cover on it. Nowdays they last 18 months, glitch, lock up, and drop calls ( with an extensive network of towers ) etc......my how far we have come.. And it wouldnt be so bad, but spending more doesnt even get you a higher quality phone, just one with more features. Anyway thats getting off the path...
Reply:Oh,So this whole post was started by a pissed off Apple I-Phone user who just dropped $400 to get his hands on "the latest technology", which turned out to be lacking compared to the "old technology".Mako,I guess I'm different than you.  I'll keep my Blackberry over my original Motorola bag phone that had about 1 hr of talk time and required that you be "sitting next to a tower" to get reliable reception.  Add in the fact that the danged thing weighed about 8lbs and was bigger than my briefcase.  Naw, think I'll keep my Blackberry.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Ops,Double post.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Well, I dont think I have a favorite method, it all seems to depend on the application. But an example I guess could be a linkage we were working on to control engine movement. Basicly a tie rod type affair about 26" long with an eyelet at each end for a 5/8" bolt to pass through at right angles to the linkage. Several different welded configurations were tried, each failing in fatigue ( BTW the materials are 4140 for the eyelets and 4130N for the tube that formed the link ).  The parts had been Tig welded with ER70s-2 filler, and manufacturing was not capable at the time of performing any kind of controlled subsuquent post weld heat treatment for that part. Lab produced O/A welded parts passed testing, but it was too difficult for manufacturing to do as none of the production weldors were well versed at the practice. As a simpler method was sought, we used "slip in" eyelets and brazed the assembly with a nickel silver alloy. This performed very well, and could be accomplished by the welding department with their standard OA equipment and little training. It also happenend to be the way Charles Taylor constructed the connecting rods for the 1903 Wright Flyer engine.
Reply:Originally Posted by PapaLion ... for ex: nobody will give you ten cents for used solid state amps but old hard wired Tube amps are generally valued in the thousands in fine condition.
Reply:You wanna know exactly where we are in regards to technological advances?Just use a drive through2010 and the damn things still sound and "works" the same as it did when they first came out.WTF?Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by Matt_MaguireI’m starting to get your drift from this post. The way you build your network is just by asking questions and different people posting back will give experiences. Your experience above is pretty common where something is needed but the design input was not there so you have to test section sizes and joining methods. It was not stated “I need 120ksi load restraint over X million cycles”. So you worked your way through it bit by bit.From the above, my options for joining would have been, S-2 tig weld with 120% section will give you about 60-70% of the 4130 without post heat.O/A welding with 4130 and a 120% section reach 90% joint design without post heat.Any fusion weld with 4130 and 110% section furnace normalized will be 100%. With full heat treat and draw, the properties can be significantly increased from annealed 4130/4140.Brazing with correctly sized parts will also work at 100% (the parent will return to full anneal properties). Complex tubing joints are often welded and thermal treated to be used with severe service applications and brazing.The above percentages are drawn from when I had to work these things out longhand and my own networking.I don’t think PAW would be of any advantage here. Manual pulse tig could bump properties somewhere between tig and O/A by using S-2 and sizing up the weld section. Orbital welding could be a player here but sizing up the weld section is a no-go. I’m not in the know about lasers so I don’t know?Anyway from my short experience on this forum, If you post a problem or question advice can come in ranges from pipefitters (safe practice which are approved) to repair and maintenance folks who get in some weird situations.Also, an AWS membership is money well spent as the magazine features new stuff as well as problem solving (from submitted questions) involving current and old school methods.This is too long…Matt
Reply:Broccoli>  Yea? why hasn't drive thru audio become any better than 1970... I dunno? Thank God I don't eat that stuff anymore. Sure Zap, UR right on it, I got plentee of them stashed, hardwired, tweeds, blackfaces etc... heavy as rocks but sound sooo good.  Yes the new P.A. Solid state thin (kinda spagetti in a pile looking  transformer) stuff is much easier to carry than an old Tube power amp...IMHO, the sound is better with tubes... but then I don't lug 'em around anymore.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools