Pure helium with MIG?

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Hi,I am a total beginer. Just finished 3 months of voc school training. Got Miller 211 Mig welder. Since the only gas I have in the garage is helium (I am a diver) I unpacked the unit and tried few beads.It seems to work fine with helium on both steel and welding steel to stainless (2nd picture). Is that a viable option for MIG welding? I'd prefer not to have bottles with mutliple gases in the garage as it is easy to fill the dive tanks with a wrong gas. Cant't breath CO2. The cost is not much of an issue as I get the Helium for free.Is the strength and other weld characteristics acceptable under helium? I plan to work on cars, build sand dune buggies, etc..Thanks Attached Images
Reply:Hi lof,It's diffucult to tell much from your pictures - out of focus.What's that yellow stuff alongside the welds?Fundamentally one inert gas should be about as good as the other.  There may be a difference in the voltage required to maintain the arc and the thermal 'wetting in' properties of the weld may be different.  e.g. C25 (75% Argon, 25% CO2) seems be be best with steel - 'wetting in' better than pure CO2.  Hardly ever hear of anyone MIG welding mild steel with pure argon.  On the other hand, 100% argon is standard for TIG but there are special TIG mixes and one I seem to recall was 98% helium / 2% oxygen.You are in a special position with free helium.  Since that gas costs considerably more than argon normal folk don't use helium.  If I were you, I'd try to run the two gases one after the other - either by bringing the gas to the welder or the welder to the gas.  Do your own test, then you will know for certain.For me, free gas would be a big incentive to use the helium.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Well it is a shielding gas, so at least you're not contaminating the weld.  Most steel mig wires are designed to weld with argon/co2 mix, argon/oxygen mix, or straight co2 as the shielding gas.  I don't recall ever seeing a steel mig wire listing pure helium as the gas to be used with it.  Pure helium is not in any way an industry standard or even exception in steel mig welding.  Helium is used in tig welding, though argon is the primary tig gas now days.If you are paying attention to what you are doing, and you should be if you're diving, you should find it easy to seperate your co2 welding gas from your helium diving gas.  I manage to differentiate between all my different gas bottles on in the shop and on the truck, and between gas and diesel pumps at the gas station too.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Thanks for the answers.Sorry about the OOF pics, they were done on my blackberry. The yellow stuff along the welds is a rust. I took the pictures few weeks after welding, The metal was outside in Florida humidity.It is no problem separating the gases for me, but I am not the only one filling there. Would hate to have someone else on my conscience. Space is an issue too. There are too many k-bottles there as it is.I will probably stick to standard gases. it was just an idea to simplify the gasmanagement.I have O2 there as well so I could mix in some O2. 90% Helium 10% Oxygen is one of my standard diving gases.
Reply:Welds look cold lof.  More heat.Helium is one of the gases in tri-mix (helium/argon/CO2) used for SS short circuit MIG but as DesertRider33 points out not seen for steel as a norm.Helium was the gas first used in TIG welding aluminum and magnesium hence the term 'Heliarc'.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:No offense, you need to use the right gas. Just like in diving, using the wrong gas can cause serious issues. The CO2 or other gases are there to get the right balance of oxidizers in the weld. Skipping them doesn't make sense. I wouldn't say any of those beads are "fine". I'm a bit surprised at you running 10-90. Most guys I know run 10-50 or 10-60 trimix for their gas on deeper dives. I guess if you're cutting custom tables and have an unlimited supply of free helium 10-90 might make sense, that or you are doing commercial work.I honestly can't see one K bottle making that much difference as far as space. If using the wrong gas seriously concerns you, get a smaller cylinder of mig mix. I seriously doubt you'd F up and use say a 125cf instead of the K bottle for mixing. Also if you are like me, you'd hook up the mig mix to the machine and leave it hooked up FT. The idea of using the wrong bottle accidentally  for dive mixing doesn't hold water with me. Most technical divers run a minimum of 3 mixes on dives that would require a 10% O2 mix. In some cases 4 or 5 gases. You label your deco and travel mixes as well as your bottom mix, so identifying correct cylinders should be second nature out of habit. If you have K bottles of 100% O2 and 100% He and grab the wrong cyl and mix 10% He, 90% O2 you'll be seizing before you hit 80 feet most likely, and dead probably shortly there after. The cyl are labeled for a reason, and color coded different for all 3 gas types. F'ing up shouldn't even be a remote option. All the guys I know who do dives over 300' analyze both O2 and He. The He analyzers are cheap insurance that the tables they cut will be accurate.I kind of have some idea what you are talking about. I'm a Naui certified gas blender and O2 service technician, Full trimix certified, full cave, and CCR certified as well as being able to weld and having done some commercial diving..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Can you say - cheap cheap cheap....
Reply:Debating using the wrong shield for welding is like debating having a cancer operation at the local butcher shop vs in a hospital operating room.They both have really sharp knives, but one is the right way and the other isn't even legal.Welding is not just putting some metal over a crack and hoping that it will hold.The industrial / commercial use of a welder is to properly fuse two pieces of metal together or to repair something that is cracked or broken.The filler metal has to be as strong as but not stronger then the parent metal.You will often times hear someone say that they welded something and it broke right beside the weld.That is because they didn't know what they were doing and they didn't match the filler metal with the base metal and they didn't get the right penetration / mix in the weld puddle and because if it had a heat treat and they did not put a new heat treat in the metal - all they really did was fill in the crack.There is a reason for everything that you do when you are a welder and one of the responsibilities of being a welder is to do your work to the best of your ability.If those welds were the best you can do - then you need to go back to the school from whence you came and ask for your money back - because even I can weld better then that and I have never been to a welding school in my life.
Reply:Originally Posted by Booger WelderIf those welds were the best you can do - then you need to go back to the school from whence you came and ask for your money back - because even I can weld better then that and I have never been to a welding school in my life.
Reply:WOW!I kinda feel like I'm on Pirate4x4 now!  A new guy asks an honest question and gets slammed.DSW, you've been here a long time and have tons of posts, but you're right; you could've worded your response better.and BW, WTF?  The guy didn't ask you to critique his welding abilities, or rip on his education, or ask if you're a better welder without schooling.  And when critiquing a weld, isn't it common courtesy to offer a "why" or "how to" make it better?Lincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:Originally Posted by dubl_tWOW!I kinda feel like I'm on Pirate4x4 now!  A new guy asks an honest question and gets slammed.DSW, you've been here a long time and have tons of posts, but you're right; you could've worded your response better.and BW, WTF?  The guy didn't ask you to critique his welding abilities, or rip on his education, or ask if you're a better welder without schooling.  And when critiquing a weld, isn't it common courtesy to offer a "why" or "how to" make it better?
Reply:Originally Posted by oldiron2i disagree with your assessment; dsw didn't "slam him" or make personal comments. Welding isn't finger painting where anything goes, and keeping track of gas bottles isn't 'rocket science. The op, who stated he just finished a short course in welding,  gave no indication that he understood the basics behind the selection of gasses or had done any searching of the site, so added information is appropriate.One early comment i did notice and question was about 98% helium / 2% oxygen being used for tig; although o2 is used to enhance wetting with mig, i am unaware of it ever being used in tig where it would degrade the tungsten.
Reply:Thanks for all your answers. I am glad to see that the Welding forums are as "lively" and "friendly" as diving forums I guess your responses clarify it for me.It is not big deal to have another gas in  the shop. I was just trying to simplify.DSW, 10/90 works great in my CCR, no need for any other mixes besides O2 for any deeper diving.. As mentioned I am not worried about me using a wrong gas but about someone else who might stop for a fill. The He analyser is always hooked up so they shoud check it, but people die every year from using the wrong mix. My best friend drowned last week so I am bit jumpy.BW, these were not my best welds, as mentioned in the first post, those were first welds after I assembled my new 211. Not having any other gas I hooked up the He and run few beads outside on the grass on some scrap I found. That is what brought the question in the OP. I already have the gas, can i use it. I guess the answer is no. Got it. I am perfectly happy with the 200 bucks I paid for the school. I used more than that in materials and supplies in those three months there. Got to play with stick, Mig and Tig and instructor was pretty good. Money well spent.I have a basic understanding of shielding gases and searched the site - there is no mention of using He for Mig Thus my question.Thanks y'all for your help.Last edited by lof; 07-31-2010 at 11:37 PM.
Reply:98/2 argon/oxygen is a mig mix for spraying steel and stainless.  I'm not aware of it's use in tig welding.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by Booger WelderIf those welds were the best you can do - then you need to go back to the school from whence you came and ask for your money back - because even I can weld better then that and I have never been to a welding school in my life.
Reply:Lof, sorry to hear about your friend. Your last post cleared up my questions about the confusion with diving gases.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider3398/2 argon/oxygen is a mig mix for spraying steel and stainless.  I'm not aware of it's use in tig welding.
Reply:Originally Posted by down19992000Where I used to work we used an argon pilot arc and a 98/2 argon/oxygen shield gas to PLASMA weld .008 stainless and inconel...
Reply:Well, since I could not get any gas on Sunday I ended up welding a blade to my mower today with He. Mowed about 3 acres and it holds well, stumps and all.Free Helium is not really free, but I own a company that uses about 50 K-bottles of UHP a week so I can "appropriate" a bottle when needed.We use CO2 and Argon as well, so I'll mix it up for future use.
Reply:Originally Posted by lofDSW, 10/90 works great in my CCR, no need for any other mixes besides O2 for any deeper diving.. As mentioned I am not worried about me using a wrong gas but about someone else who might stop for a fill. The He analyser is always hooked up so they shoud check it, but people die every year from using the wrong mix. My best friend drowned last week so I am bit jumpy.
Reply:Seems to pretty much have been covered, but I'll add my 2c anyway.  Pure helium is sometimes used for GTAW aka TIG welding.  It was the first shielding gas used for GTAW aka TIG aka HeliArc welding.  But because of the expense of using pure helium, research and experimentation found out that using argon was generally cheaper and worked well also.Both argon and helium are the only true "inert" gases used in welding.  All the other commonly used shielding gases are actually 'active' and not inert gases.  O2 is oxidizing by itself, and although CO2 by itself is inert, in the welding arc it disassociates into CO and O/O2 which are both active/oxidizing.Helium has a higher arc voltage than argon, and thus more energy is put into the welding arc when helium is used than when argon is used.  More arc energy means more heat put into the weld, thus helium/helium-blends are sometimes used for welding on thicker sections.  Also, helium transfers heat from the arc better than argon does, so again using helium is a higher energy / higher heat process than using argon. Mixes/blends trade off various characteristics of the different gases used in the blends.  Helium typically does not form as 'easy' or as stable an arc as argon does.  Also, helium does not enable the same level of cleaning action that argon does when welding on aluminum.Helium-argon blends are also sometimes beneficial for welding on aluminum because they increase the puddle fluidity and reduce the porosity (mostly because of the increased heat input).Pure helium is also sometimes used for arc welding (GMAW or GTAW) on other active/reactive metals such as copper or magnesium or nickel alloys.Helium mixes are also used with GMAW on stainless steel to add some increased heat into the weld to help overcome the sluggish weld puddle tendancy, especially with short-circuit transfer mode GMAW.Usually for GMAW on steel though, the filler is made to utilize some level of 'active' gas in the shielding gas in order to achieve the proper puddle fluidity and wetting action and chemical/metallurgical characteristics in the deposited weld.  Because the final deposited weld is not just dependant on the filler or the shielding gas by themselves, but upon the combined characteristics of the filler and the gas and the arc in making the weld.Pure helium will usually find more use in GTAW, on thicker sections, than in GMAW.Just like you won't deep dive with plain air, you need to use the proper gas or gas mix for shielding when welding, in combination with the process and the metal and the filler being used, in order to achieve good results.Sorry to hear about your friend.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Great. Thanks for detailed answer. Getting the proper gases today.I have many CCRs - HH, Meg, LAR, RB80, Prism, MK15.x, etc..And bunch of prototypes.
Reply:If you get free helium, find someone who welds aluminum. Given the price difference I can see them being quite willing to swap argon and mixed gas cylinders back and forth.