How To Weld Thin Steel Edges?

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I'm a complete newbie. I'm trying to weld box section 40mm x 20mm galvanised steel.  To make a gate. One piece with butt up its open end against the side of another piece - that's where the horizontal top and bottom bars butt agains the uprights, okay? So - being such a beginner I've been practicing just that weld.  To see if I can do it. Can I build this thing?  It looks like I can. Just. Horrible messy looking welds and a couple of times I've burned holes through, but I've joined the pieces so's they don't come apart when I bash them with a hammer.  I'm using a cheap SIP stick welder at about 55amps according to the sliding scale pointer and 2.5mm and 2.0mm general purpose electrodes.  I wanted to get 1.6mm sticks but I couldn't find any.  It isn't as I thought it would be - I'm not sure that the bigger electrode isn't better for the job than the smaller one.  So that's my first question:  What would you all advise me to use for an electrode? The smallest one I can get, or what?  And the second question:  A couple of times there was a bit of a gap where my angle-ground 'edges' test piece butted up against the 'wall' test piece and I found that when the electrode touched that free edge it just burned it away.  I tested this by trying to weld together two edges - got a gaping hole.  You can see it on the pic there.  So the second question:  How to weld two 'edges' coming together?  I'll post pics of my test piece.  It looks pretty horrible I warn you. I've included a pic showing the end of the stuff so's you can see the thickness and what I've been doing. I invite any comments at all......   Attached Images
Reply:Shorter arc. Smaller rod. slow down. The arc should be one rod distance (the wire part) or less.  You need to grind off ALL the galvanize.  How thick is the piece.  One amp for .001 inch of steel is the general rule.  or 39 amps for one mm.  Your rod shouldn't be thicker than the piece. DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:It is VERY impotant that you get rid of the galvanizing, the fumes are toxic, and it will bugger up a weld really bad.I wouldn't suggest grinding it off, since you are having trouble with the stock being thin already. The best (most eco-friendly) way is to soak the pieces in a bucket of white vinegar overnite. The acetic acid in the vinegar will dissolve the zinc.Aside from that, just practice. In my early welding days, before I had a TIG, I found that a 3/32 7014 worked best for me for thin stuff. Dont try to lay a long bead either. Tack it in 1" increments, bouncing around to avoid too much heat build-up in one spot, then tack in between the first tacks until you have it all welded. Be sure to clean the slag off after each set of tacks.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:If you get flap discs for grinding you should be able to remove the galvy without really grinding out anything much as far as the steel is concerned. Galvy coatings can certainly make welding more difficult, and as mentioned earlier the fumes are toxic.... METAL FUME FEVER, is the resulting illness from too much exposure. Depending on the size of the hole filling holes can be tricky with stick as well.... sometimes it is necessary to using a whipping motion as well as changing your arc length to fill holes. Whipping the arc in and out of the puddle allowing the puddle to cold creating a small shelf to bring the arc back to, repeating the porcess. Changing the arc length gives you a little ability to vary to heat input as well._________________Chris
Reply:Thanks for the advice.  That's pretty shocking news about Fume Fever - I read up about it a bit on the web, a real danger.  So I've taken the galv off with a grinding disk on my power drill, that seemed to do it well enough without grinding away any metal.    gets down to bright metal - that would mean all the gal has gone?  I can't get the gal out from inside, though, without doing the vinegar thing and I might have to do that in the future, if I get any signs or symptoms whatever of this fume fever.   AND I got some thin rods. 1/16 inch - 1.6mm - pretty hard to get. And I've been practicing with them and, frankly, I'm not doing too well. I can weld the stuff together so's it won't fall apart but it's a very ugly weld, I still don't feel I've got the 'knack' or a real understanding or ability.  The welder is down to 40amps in theory, that being the bottom end of the scale. I say 'in theory' because there's a glass window to watch how the indicator slider moves.  And above that window are the amperage figures. Well, the window doesn't extend as far as the figures - so when you get to the bottom end of the window the figure on the casing above the pointer is still about 50 amps.    But common sense would indicate bottom end of the slider equates with the lower figure: 40amps.  So I can't go lower. But it'll still blow through.  I can lay a bead along the wall of the RHS (rectanguar hollow section - do you use the same name in the USA?) without any trouble.  And I can lay a thick or hot bead along the corner of the RHS where there's 'wall' beneath the bead. But if I try to lay a bead like that along the corner where it butts up against the edges of the joining piece - as in the pictures I posted before and these new ones - then the 'edge' will simply burn away like lightning. So I can only run along this join with the thin rod and lay an almost invisible 'bead' and then go over it again and again and again - chipping and brushing between each time.  OR - I can lay the bead on the 'corner' until it is built up quite a bit and then make puddles on there that I can push or tease or whatever you call it over onto the 'edge'.  Very slow, very clumsy.  Seems to me I was doing better with the thicker rod and I'm going to give myself another practice session as big as this one, with the 2.0mm rod or even the 2.5mm Meanwhile I'll post pics of this practice session and invite comments from anyone at all, any comment at all, and thank you all for your patience and help.  I don't know how to put the photos into this text, I only know how to add attachments like i did last time.  I'd rather stick them into the text though, I think, if that's okay with the moderators and if someone will tell me how to do it.  regards, ab Attached Images
Reply:That second set of pics isn't so bad after all.  You joined the metal together so that's a plus  .If I could suggest you start just laying stringer beads on flat metal.  First step, practice starting the arc and forming a puddle.  Just do this over and over until it's second nature.  When you are done practicing this, your starts won't look like snots on the tubing anymore  .Now lay some beads.  Watch the puddle and concentrate on a straight weld of uniform width.  No need to get fancy with rod motions and so forth just yet.  Just work on some nice straight beads of uniform width.  You'll be doing it well before you know it.Now join some metal.  Think of the rod as a torch.  Where you point the end of the rod is where the heat goes and where the molten rod goes.  If you are running a bead, you can move or angle the rod to keep the puddle centered on the joint line.  In a case as you describe where you have a cut piece butting a whole piece, you may need to angle the end of the rod more toward the whole piece.  Slow down, watch the puddle and you will quickly get a feel for moving or angling the rod to keep the puddle evenly distributed on the two pieces.  Maybe think of the cut piece as thinner than the other piece and you can imagine how you would want to direct the heat to maintain a uniform puddle on both.There -- a few practice sessions and you'll be ready to start the fancy stuff.  Whips, crescents, weaves, . . . .  Keep trying and post more pics.
Reply:phila.renewal is right, things are looking better. Don't forget to skip around, then come back & fill-in, after grinding the high stuff. Remember the Zinc!Bruce The Welding ChefLincoln Weld-Pack 3200 NORWELD StickStanford Hill Farm
Reply:I missed if you are welding DC.  If you are, try electrode negative. It will put heat into the electrode instead of the piece.  1/16 electrodes are a blast.  They vibrate in my hands.  Kind of like an automatic weave or whip.   Keep at it and you will get it.  A little mig would do an awesome job.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I wonder if there's any chance I just don't have enough current, even though it blows through?  Harking back to David R's advice he says 39amps for 1mm and I've got 2mm galv steel here. Thanks for the new starter's course, phila, I will do it.  I think you've picked up on what I'm doing - starting the rod again and again and again along the bead. So it looks like a string of currants. That's the only way I've found of doing it. The thing is I don't get a chance to 'watch the puddle' - by the time I've got a watchable puddle it has blown through.  That's if the weld is across the join. If I weld just on the 'whole' piece I can build up a bead, as I've said, and there I can build a puddle. But not on the join because the 'ends' will just blow through. I'm pretty sure I'm welding DC though, would you believe, it says nothing at all about it either on the welder or on the two-sheets-of-paper manual that came with it.  How would I reverse the polarity?  There should be a switch or place to move the lead to? There's nothing.  I would like to check the welder. Is there a way of checking the amps a welder is using? With a multimeter?  Keep at it is what I'll do. A friend lent me a MIG some months ago when I wanted to weld my car panels. I practiced with it and couldn't do much good. Using gasless wire. He himself couldn't do much good. I've since been told I should have used it with gas.  I will keep trying.  Thanks again for the help and encouragement.
Reply:I still learning myself, butI re-read this thread & couldn't find what weldor your using? I'm pretty sure I'm welding DC though, would you believe, it says nothing at all about it either on the welder or on the two-sheets-of-paper manual that came with it. How would I reverse the polarity? There should be a switch or place to move the lead to? There's nothing.As far as DC goes, most weldors have the option of reversing the polarity,  inside the chassis or cabinet?Bruce The Welding ChefLincoln Weld-Pack 3200 NORWELD StickStanford Hill Farm
Reply:Originally Posted by abrogard The thing is I don't get a chance to 'watch the puddle' - by the time I've got a watchable puddle it has blown through.  That's if the weld is across the join. If I weld just on the 'whole' piece I can build up a bead, as I've said, and there I can build a puddle. But not on the join because the 'ends' will just blow through.
Reply:If its a DC welder, put the electrode in the ground clamp and clamp the electrode holder to your work.  Give it a shot.  If you are burning through, you probably have enough amps.  We need to know the name of the machine.And no you cannot check the amps with a multimeter.  What Number rod is it?  6010?  6011?  6013?  7014? 7018?.....If there is any galv on the steel it will flare up and make the arc go nuts on you.  Try some OTHER stell and see what happens.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:The welder is a 'SIP'. I don't know if you get that brand in the States, it's Chinese I think.  I've made some progress today, I think. I turned round the other way and ramped the amps up and I grabbed the 'big' rod - 2.5mm, a size the local people told me I should be able to use (couldn't get small rods locally).  It seemed to go easier. I can still burn through but that's a funny thing, too, because the risk of burning through seems about exactly the same!  If I make  one quick pass and then come back and go over that glowing metal it's easier - much easier - to avoid burning through and that glowing bead provides the illumination to help me see the damn thing. I can then go over it again until the bead is fat enough to reach the join if I've missed the join - and that's easier to do than you'd think (for me).     I run what I think is a good bead and when I check it I find it has run right along the shoulder of the piece and missed the 'edge' of the other piece entirely.  The thicker rod puts down more metal so that the first pass leaves something substantial there. With the 1.6mm rod a first pass might leave virtually nothing - and if I slowed it down to try leave a good bead I'd get a burn through.  Maybe I'm kidding myself. Perhaps the pics will help you decide. I've photographed the welds as welded and then ground them back to nearly flat so's you can see just how good they might be.  I forget what the number is on the rods and its late at night here now, I can't go look. I'll post that later. regards, ab Attached Images
Reply:You're not kidding yourself.  The welds are getting better.I forgot you have 220V mains power as standard so the box would be a 220V on the primary -- that will help make arc starts easier.  The welder you are using is very similar to my first welder of almost 30 years ago and it will work.  I used one just like it for several years and I had the same trouble you are having so don't get discouraged.Keep trying and experimenting.  How about this as another experiment.  Run short, quick beads perpendicular to the joint as tack welds.  If you can get that to work, a series of tacks, with cooling time in between, will form a weld that may be strong enough for your gate.  As a "second phase" if you can get a series of tack welds in place, it may make it easier to then connect them together running a final pass down the joint.DavidR mentioned the welding rod you are using.  I would recommend the E7014.  The flux is an iron power, penetration is lower and you can drag the rod along the work which makes it easier to get started.  If you can't find it locally, send me your address and I'll mail you some so you can try it.  I've got plenty that I've had properly stored for a while now and I'd be happy to send you some.Sorry I can't be more help.  There's a lot of trial and error that just can't be avoided.  All part of the game.Last edited by phila.renewal; 03-29-2007 at 08:49 AM.
Reply:They are looking more substantial! I'm thinking the galvanic stuff is still an issue, if the tubes were galvanized.......so was the interior? Do the vinegar soak, it might look like a por did the welding?  Bruce The Welding ChefLincoln Weld-Pack 3200 NORWELD StickStanford Hill Farm
Reply:The tubes are galvanised on the inside I would say - they look exactly the same both sides.  I will try the vinegar soak technique and see if I can detect a difference. The "short quick beads perpendicular ...."  is really what I (I cannot use single apostrophe... throws me out of the editor... into a "find.." mechanism...ever had that happen? ) have been trying to do from the beginning.  That was my attempt at a tack weld. But as I crossed to the thin edge metal I would always burn through the edge. I could not tack.   My technique now is what someone suggested - I lay metal on the thick part until I can make a pool and then I put that on the edge.  Now that I am going better I can lay metal in something that looks like a good bead right across the whole 38mm of the tube. Then pass over it again and I have immediately got something I can work with. These are the rods I have been using:  1.6mm  from Gemini 12, rutile coated, E6012  2.00 mm from Easyweld  SH421.0  2.5mm from Nuweld  E6013 Thankyou for the clue about rods. I will follow that up. I am thinking I do not have the "knack" and I am wondering where I should look for it, if you see what I mean: Is welding a fine and delicate thing or more a brute force kind of thing? Does welding get so easy you can do it in your sleep or does it always require close concentration?  I am thinking fine and delicate and ever present concentration.  Seems to me you have to look right into that weld and you are working with minute movements of the rod tip, shortening and lengthening the arc, weaving the arc, changing the angle, manipulating the arc around the job.  That is all very fine and delicate despite the fact you are working with the fierce heat of the sun.   But nobody ever mentions "fine and delicate.." so just maybe I have got it wrong.   And, lastly, if it IS fine and delicate in its nature how about the current? Do minute alterations to the current affect everything or is that very forgiving (another way of saying "does not matter much" ) ?  I thank you all for the time you have given me and let me tell you I much appreciate it and the advice.  regards, ab
Reply:Once you get the hang of it, 5 amps makes a difference.  I don't think delacite or how ever you speel it is the word. Maybe precise.  And after you get then hang of it, it will be like tying your shoes until you get a different thickness or steel or rod.The 6013 might work if you tilt your work and weld pretty fast down hill.  Keep the amps low and WATCH THE PUDDLEYOU CAN DO IT!DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:After TIG welding alot stick welding seems pretty brutal, but it realy isn't. It is fine work that requires alot of control. It just takes some practice.When I first started welding my biggest problem was being able to watch the puddle and manipulate it according to how it was looking. I didn't even realize that for awhile. It finally hit me one day, all of a sudden I got the eye. Pay no attention to the fireworks show, just concentrate on the glowing molten puddle, and the area immediately surrounding it. Watch what happens and take note, eventually you will be able to manipulate it without consciously thinking about it. If you haven't been already, try cutting your rods in half instead of starting with a full length stick. It is much easier to control a shorter length, especially with the small diameter rods you are using.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:Perhaps you could get some thicker plate and learn to weld, then do the job at hand.  It would be a lot easier.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I think you're right. cutting the rods might help. I notice the difference myself, when the rod gets about halfway I start really getting into it and just when I feel I'm getting somewhere the rod's finished!  Practice. I need more practice. David's right. I could use to do a welding course and learn to weld in a proper setting - with instructors and a properly set out course of tuition.  Later I might even be able to do that.  But I'll build this gate now, as best I can.  In the past I've only ever done one welding job before. I have this 16metre x 8 metre x 5 metre high shed.  It has railway line for uprights every 4 metres and  needed some wall cladding when I got it. So I cut and welded 4mm thick   x about 4" angle iron brackets onto the railway line to carry 4metre wooden stringers that I could screw corrugated iron sheets to.  70 odd of those brackets.  I did that job as best I could, learning as I went, knowing nothing really, absolutely no training and no assistance.  The brackets are still holding.  That was a snack compared to welding this thin stuff.  I had the idea that when you got a thin enough rod and low enough amps then welding thin stuff would be as easy as those brackets had been.  Not so, is it?  Different ballgame entirely.  It was like that with the MIG, too. I had the idea that the MIG would make it child's play to weld thin stuff. As easy as that brackets job.  Not so. The MIG would burn through just like the stick.  The MIG would spatter and lay a string of currants, just like the stick.    I have read in this forum, I think, people claiming that in welding school they welded gum wrappers!!  I'd like to know just how they did it.  I've never seen where they say if it was stick or MIG or TIG or what.  What I really want to do is weld thin stuff. That's the challenge and that's my future desire because I want to fix my car. You can see it http://xyford.com   I want to cut out the floor wells and weld them in, cut out the rust in the tailgate and weld in new stuff.  That's good old steel in that car, thicker and better than modern stuff, but it is still very thin. Much thinner than this 2mm gal steel I'm hassling with now.  And it is my goal.  I'm hearing, here and there, that I should give up the idea of arc welding entirely and go for using an oxy torch.  Which sounds convincing. But then I recall those claims that they've welded gum wrappers. Presumably with arc welding.  So the search continues.  It is hard to come up with any certainties. I mean like someone who can say "Do it this way and it will be as easy as that 'brackets' job."  Probably because there's no way it ever will  be. Thin stuff welding is probably - I'm thinking - an entirely different thing.  So how do they make it so easy that they can actually weld a gum wrapper?  I talk a lot don't I?  Sorry. Hope I'm not wasting the forum's space and time. Probably I simply need to keep trying and trying and that way I'll eventually find out for myself. Perhaps it is one of those things, where each individual finds his own way.  I seem to be preferring the 2.5mm rod where in theory it should be easier with the 1.6mm rod.  Perhaps, probably, I should shut up about now and just go away and practice and practice and get back to you all when (if ever) I have cracked it and can weld 2mm without any problem at all, and 1mm.... and car panels... !
Reply:That is why we're here, bounce ideas & techniques off'n each other.Bruce The Welding ChefLincoln Weld-Pack 3200 NORWELD StickStanford Hill Farm
Reply:I've usually had good welders to use at work, even though I no longer work on the shop floor, but for those occasions when I have to fix something on the weekend, I have an old Century "buzz box", which is a 115v unit without any adjustments for amperage. The penetration or heat is controlled by the size of the rod you use, where the smaller rods actually burn hotter and the larger ones cooler. If your machine is at the minimum setting and still burns through, try a larger rod, 3/32" or even 1/8" if you can get it to start. I think you would have better results with an iron powder rod like 7014. As for learning to control your stick better, I hope you are using two hands, and not one hand with the other holding the shield. You need both hands when learning to keep the stick steady. The hard part for many people is learning to feed the stick in as you move the bead along. Some, but not all people can get better results when first learning, by placing the stick straight out, rather than at a right angle in the holder, and grasping it like a pencil. They seem to have the muscle memory to write, even largely like on a blackboard, which can be used to better control the stick until it becomes second nature. Just 2 cents from a half wit.
Reply:You are very far from a halfwit, aren't you, Carl. Thanks for your post. I've reached the stage where I can comprehend what you're talking about - where a short while ago I would have understood the English, of course, but not really have understood what you meant. But I've noticed for myself that when I went to the smallest rod (1/16" - 1.6mm) things didn't get easier, they got harder. More burnthrough. Swifter burnthrough. Even though I went down to the minimum amps.  And that if I went back up to a heavier rod and left the amps the same it got easier.   I was saying in this thread that I seemed to be favouring the heavier rod. That was because of that mechanism.  My surmise was that if the current was the same then the smaller rod carried it all on a 'sharper' point and therefore penetrated more.  Right or wrong about the reason it is heartening to have some confirmation that this thing actually happens - after so much encouragement to believe that I should go smaller rods/smaller current all the time.  Thanks for the clue about 'iron powder' rods.  I will look for them. I've never heard of them. Not unusual, I've heard of nothing, I'm not in an environment to hear of things related to welding.  I am not using two hands. I'm waving my mask around with one and welding with the other.  This, too, I can appreciate your remarks about. Why? Because I am just  beginning to get some understanding of rod control.  I've now welded about 60 odd of these particular joints that I'm trying to make.  And about 40 of the 'wire mesh onto the RHS' welds. I've made one gate and have started on the other.  All the welds are atrocious.  The last quarter or more of all my welds have been with the 1/16" rod.  It was easier with the heavier rod. But not easy enough. The technique was to build a big puddle on the strong side and then slur it over to the edges, across the join.  I got the job done at the cost of an enormous heap of weld metal that was doing nothing except sitting there looking ugly.   This didn't look or feel right to me so I decided to fathom out these 1/16" rods - after all, that was the prevailing wisdom, lightest possible rods, and I'd paid enough for them, even driving 200km to get them.   Well there was all kinds of hassle as you'd imagine. The thin rod waving around everywhere. Burning through like lightning. I had to be so quick that I couldn't see where I was going. I'd strike the arc and then the rod had to move immediately and would be at the other end of the join before I saw it wasn't on the join!    So I got the job done with a mixture of repeated arc striking, or multiple tacks you might call it, and wavering all around the place, and repeated passes along the length of the join, and building up that heap of metal again and slurring it over.... a great mishmash of stabs at it.   I thought I had a technique for a while. I would pass quickly along the joint. Dragging the rod along the metal, in the join. Spluttering and spitting and crackling.  It would lay a tiny bit of metal. Then I'd go again and again and finish up with a weld, a thin weld, right there where it was needed, in the  join.   But I couldn't repeat it at will. Sometimes it would cause immediate burnthrough. If there was a bit of a gap so's the rod could find the edge it would immediately eat away at the edge. I'd get an immediate hole in the joint.   It was like this right up until the last couple of welds yesterday.  Then I found myself making circles with the very tip of the fine rod over the joint and moving along it.  Moving too quick to burn through but not too quick to fail to leave some metal behind. I built two good welds - good for me, that is.  And that's what I mean by understanding your remarks about rod control. All that work with the fine rod has finally got me to where I am beginning to pay full attention to the very tip of the rod and what it is doing, where it is and how much metal it is putting down, how big the puddle is.   I can fill the holes in a crappy 'string of currants' weld like this with fine detail because the little rod gets right in those holes.  I'm hoping I've found a way and learned something. Maybe I have and maybe I haven't. Maybe I'll get back out there today and the first joint with a little gap it'll eat the gap away again.  Back to the drawing board.  A couple of gaps were so big I had to fill them with lengths of the 6mm mesh wire.   I don't really know what to do. So I've decided to stop changing every ten minutes. I'll stick with the 1/16" rods until the packet is finished and see what I learn.    I realise now the learning comes slowly.    Someone said CLAMS and all the important things about good welding. Current. Length of arc. Angle of rod. Manipulation of rod. Speed.    I realise now I've been welding with no control over any of them.  Not any. At any given time I've had the current set blindly, not really knowing if it where it should be or not.  My arc length is totally random... I'm too busy moving that rod to avoid burnthrough.  The angle of the rod is unknown to me entirely. I strike the arc with the rod laid over pretty well and probably weld at the same angle.  The Manipulation is all over the place without understanding or method, just stabbing and re-striking and hovering and whatnot at random, trying to do the weld.  And the Speed has just been a frantic running away from burnthough.  And that's true.  For about 100 welds in total.   So it takes a long time for me to learn.   And perhaps I've just now made a start.  I've got to thank all you guys who've had the patience to read my long winded posts and the consideration to think about it and post advice to me.  I will plough on.  I've got the mesh to weld on this second gate now - and that's a whole story in itself - and then the job's done and I'll go get steel specifically for practicing and I'll see if I can teach myself to weld.  regards, ab
Reply:Hi Abrogard,Ok I"ll jump in for my 2 cents worth. First of all you are to be congratulated for sticking with it this far.You have started your welding experience by selecting a combination of possibly the hardest of everything weldable to start with.I don't like to sound critical, but lets just say the SIP welder, a bottom of the range machine is a cheaply built Italian design,which needs soaking - in deep water.The cheaper components make it especially hard to do what you are doing -weld thin stuff.The  initial arc strike  spikes up the voltage which blows your thin  metal away before any deposit happens. Anyway if it is all you have we will have to work around it.Welding thin metal, let alone galvanized steel is just another burden which a beginner welder should not have to bear. Tube and particularly thin walled stuff is no fun for experienced welders with the level of equipment you have. Perhaps a better way to get you rolling is to forget the gal for now,just put it aside. Grab some 3/16 or 1/4" flat bar and run some beads parallel to the edge. When you get some success on thicker plate,you could then step progressively down until you achieve your goal.I have some tips for welding square tube ,but will go a put them in picture form for you.I"ll get back tomorrow as its evening here in Oz.Grahame
Reply:i think you are exactly right grahame, he didnt exactly start with the easiest first.Hi  and thanks for the input. I'm in SA, myself, on the Murray.  After saying I'd stick with the 1.6mm rods I've immediately turned around and done something different.  I finished the second gate using the 2.5mm rod but at the same amps I was using for the 1.6mm - about 50amps, I'd say.  It seemed to be almost impossible to burn through the tubing, which was a great relief. I could melt the wire into a puddle and if I didn't take the trouble and time to burn into the tubing for a while that puddle wouldn't weld onto the tubing. The wire wouldn't be welded onto it despite all that mass of molten metal.  So that was a very pleasant change, to be able to take some time and stick the rod in and create a weld.   And that's how I finished the job.   But they're still not good welds. Very poor as you'll see when I get some pics together and post them.  Looks to me like the wire in the mesh is much softer metal than the steel in the RHS. Would that be right?  I'm very interested in your remarks about the poor quality of my welder and the effect of that on the task. I've never heard any mention of that aspect before.  I think I posted a pic of it. It's a SIP.  Very cheap alright. Less than $100 if I remember right. But I had no idea it could affect the quality of the welds, or  make the task harder.  I thought a welder is just a transformer and cheap or expensive they'll all transform the voltage as required - the cheap ones simply heating up quicker and offering a limited range and poorer controls (like my hit and miss readout window for the amperage).  I would like to know more about that aspect if anyone cares to tell me. Now I've finished that job (except I need to go over many of the welds) I can go get some material and do some practice as you suggest and try get the fundamentals right before going back to thin stuff. regards, ab
Reply:AB,My thinking is nobody wants to cast dispergions(sp) on anybodys equiptment.  Especially someone (us) interested in learning the craft.Bruce The Welding ChefLincoln Weld-Pack 3200 NORWELD StickStanford Hill Farm
Reply:Yep. I reckon that's right. And that's good and polite. But, you know, I'd like to know about it if I'm struggling because my gear's just no good...  Here's a couple of pics of my 'edge welds' that I'm having so much trouble with. You can see I haven't found the way yet.  These were done with the thin rod - 1/16" Attached Images
Reply:And here's some pics of the 'wire onto the tubing' welds. You can see they're not too good, either...  these with the small rod.... Attached Images
Reply:And the last of my shameful art gallery... some done with the 2.5mm rod..   and a pic of one of the gates.... Attached Images
Reply:I use 3/32 6013 on 1/16 metal.  Looks like your not leading the puddle.  The molten metal is building up around the rod at times.  When you allow this to happen you cause the arc to cool or extinguish.  Use two hands to hold the electrode, prehaps rest on your elbows this will help control arc length and feed rate.Also, concentrate the heat on the solid rod find the puddle and bring it down to the tubing.Grind your worst welds, then reweld.  Get the slag out before rewelding.The last weld look pretty good.Your machine is 55amps.  The only difficulty I see is it may not go low enough for 6013 1/16 rod.  It at the low end for 6013 3/32 rod.  I would use 3/32 and compensate for lack of amps with slower travel speed.
Reply:tapwelder, thanks for your input. It sent me scrabbling for the manual for the welder and sure enough it starts at 55amps and supposedly goes up to 140amps.   I didn't understand the markings on the case - they range from 40 amps upwards but the slider in the window only slides from 55 amps upwards.  I thought it was sloppy marking but it's not. It's an indication that when you want 40amps you can't have it.       I suppose they use the same stencil in the factory for machines that do allow a range down to 40amps.   3/32" (2.5mm) on 1/16" (1.6mm) metal?  Well it looks like I'm going to settle for 3/32" on my 5/64" metal.  Is that okay? I've heard the rod shouldn't be thicker than the piece?  If I can get the hang of it I'll move onto 1/16" metal - that'd be about car panel (old vehicles, '70 Ford type) thickness, just what I want!    The unmarked sliding scale must be at about 60amps I guess. Do you reckon that's okay for 3/32" rod on 5/64" galv (with the gal supposedly ground off) material?Last edited by abrogard; 04-07-2007 at 06:53 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by abrogard  I'm very interested in your remarks about the poor quality of my welder and the effect of that on the task. I've never heard any mention of that aspect before.
Reply:G day Abrogard,Just for the record I am not the type of person Bruce would have you believe. I mean no disrespect to you, but did offer an opinion on the welder,as I have had students struggle unnecessarily with them before.Being a boilermaker, I am probably abrupt and to the point. If anybody does not like it I am not about to lose sleep over it.  I have close to 40 years experience in the trade,twenty five of them spent teaching welding and related subjects. I get my jollies from seeing students improve and succeed, not to see them frustrated with less than ideal equipment and give up the craft. What I try to do with any post is to offer constructive criticism.By running the smaller rod amps on a slightly larger rod you are able to reduce amp density on the rod - ie less heat input into the metal. Thats good most blokes would not have twigged to that.Looking at the piccies, the ones with all the little balls of metal sitting on top it appears to me that your arc length maybe too long. Long arc length creates heat which will melt through your wall thickness pronto.A rule of thumb is to keep your arc length as same as the wire diameter of your rod. When welding the tee section another technique is to approach from the cut side and lay the rod nearly flat- say 10 degrees-.With the majority of the arc (keep it short ) on the uncut tube allow a bit of the arc to make a bead along the to be welded section.Because of the rolled edge of the uncut tube the cut edge is unable to butt close up and there is an appreciable gap.Keep running beads on the uncut side until they build up and wash over the cut side.On welding the mesh to the tube keep the majority of the arc ,say 2/3rds on the tube and wash a 1/3rd up onto the mesh. Short arc again,Ok!Another thought there, is to have a scrap striking plate adjacent to the intended weld area and strike your arc there and flick it across when the arc is started and stable.It reduces that blow away start tendency.About the internals of the the machine. Yes they are a transformer. As with any other manufactured product they are manufactured to a price. In manufacturing to a price, quality is the fist thing that suffers.The welder operates but not as well as other welders can.I thought you may be an Aussie when I say the familiar electrode brands.We had visitors yesterday so I could not go into the workshop and take pics. I will do so now.RegardsGrahame
Reply:AbrogardI"ll be a while yet with the pictures as the camera battery needs recharging or is flat.Re the SIP Weldmate. As I said, they are a low end machine with limited application. The amperage range is limited because of the transformer. It is limited by its' light weight windings. If you do  have an opportunity, compare the weights of similar range machines. The better quality models are heavy because they are wound in thicker copper. The nasties are often wound in aluminum a cheaper metal.The effect is that the cheaper transformer won't have the upper and lower range capabilities of a better performing machine.SIP make a range of stick welding, gas and gas less Migs and spot welding machines. I believe that SIP is outclassed by products in all of their range.Compare a GMC welder around the same price if possible. They are a Australian designed, Chinese built machine. They are available through Bunnings and will run rings around SIP,s   If you know  of Triton brand  ( woodwork saw benches ,routers etc )-GMC own Triton.  GMC an Australian owned company,design in Australia and get the Chinese to build to the Triton specs.I  have learnt that just because it is Chinese made it is not necessarily shoddy built.In case some are wondering  how and why I do understand  about what I am making comment about. My wife works for electrical repairers who repair welders under warranty. My comments are based on  the  questions  I put to the electricians who assess the warranty claims and repair where necessary. My knowledge of welding machines comes from my training which also covered the design and construction of all types of welding machines.Getting back to the welding itself, I am sure there is some arc length problem there, and may well be sorted by going to slightly thicker clean plate and work from there.It won,t hurt either to get an experienced welder to run some beads just to make sure there are no glaring machine faults.Grahame
Reply:Hi Bruce, and thanks a lot for your input. I'm new in this town and don't know anyone, so I don't have much chance of getting an experienced welder to show me the ropes or check my gear for me. I keep looking though.  In the meantime it is the feedback from such as yourself here on this forum that provides my only 'tuition' and help.  So I'm grateful to everyone for it and I didn't find you to be abrupt but I wouldn't mind if you were... I ask the questions and I've got to make the best of the responses I get. That's just the name of the game the way I see it.  I'll try the techniques you describe. As I think I said, I've been doing some of it back to front - I've been 'washing' from the wire to the tube. Frightened of burning through the tube. But that seems to be pretty safe now with this 55amps, 2.5mm rod, so I'll practice as you say. Thanks for the rundown on the SIP. It is enlightening.  I do know GMC.  I've got a couple of el cheapo compressors from them. A 24L and a 30L.  It takes the two of them running together to provide barely enough air to drive my spray gun.  That's another trade I'm trying to get some idea of and am finding there's much more to it than meets the eye, right from the word go.   You'd agree it's okay to use the 2.5mm rod on 2mm tube?  I'll try that 10 degree business. That's a new one on me.  A thought occurrs to me:  what is it that causes burnthrough?  And more particularly, the burning away of the edges?  Is it the arc itself, is what I mean, or is it the heat of the molten metal in the pool?  I've melted the wire onto the tube and it hasn't welded onto the tube. Yet other times molten metal, the pool, seems to be enough to make a weld.  Is that just a question of how hot the pool is?  Or is the correct technique to always put the arc into both pieces of metal that need welding?  I know the heat of the pool varies and can make different things happen because I've seen it. When it gets white hot and a big pool it drops through the tube and leaves a hole. I wouldn't call that 'burn through', though. It seems to me that it drops through from its own sheer weight and the reduced viscosity because of the heat. Am I right or wrong?  'Burn through' and especially that sudden burning away of the edges seems to me to be the fault of the arc itself. Really 'burning away' the metal, vapourising it.  Am I right or wrong?  And, lastly, or second-lastly, what do you think my chances are of welding car panels with my SIP and a 2mm or 2.5mm rod?  Lastly: what about those posts I've seen where guys claim they welded gum wrappers in welding school?  Is that possible? With stick? They seem very serious but I don't know if its for real or not. I suppose they mean that silver paper that used to wrap around sticks of chewing gum.  regards, ab
Reply:OK heres some answerssnip At the right amps yes! SNIP  TThe relative angle of the electrode works because the heat is angled away from the cut edge.On the cut edge, the heat builds up and is unable to be conducted away. SNIPPrimarily long arc length,slow travel speed on thin plate, excessive amps and pointing the rod right at the cut edge.If the welder is still under warranty I would have it checked.If your arc length is OK you should be getting a much better looking deposit.That is why I would go back and do the thing on the thicker m steel plate.SNIP   It depends on the amps and arc length. The metal would need tremendous 25,000 degree plus  temps to vapourise metal. Molten metal does not exceed 6000C.SNIP  Not good at allSNIP  being the sceptic that I am, I say prove it. The wrappers are aluminium foil to my knowledge.I seen the same post where some one says he saw an old feller testing a tig weld a razor blade to a railway iron. Crikey,I can weld two blades together but not to that.Check for a PMGrahame
Reply:Ok I am back maybe with picsHopefully these will be able to be  viewed easilyGrahame Attached Images
Reply:That weld makes me so envious....  And you say it is only 1.6mm stuff?  I like the idea of the 10 degrees - shooting most of the heat over to the heavier metal and dropping hot metal on the lighter stuff to make a weld. Is that how it works?  And I like your explanation of why the edges just burn away - because the heat has nowhere to go, air being a poor conductor of heat compared with steel.  So an edge can only conduct heat back whereas a spot on the body of a piece of steel can radiate heat in all directions.   It is understandings like that which I feel will help me most. Knowing what's going on helps me understand why I should do this or that... instead of doing things blindly...  Of course, if I'd thought about it I should have been able to figure it out for myself but I notice that, in this day and age of easy help on the internet I get altogether out of the habit of thinking and into the habit of immediately asking for help.  But perhaps that's just the same as the natural conversation between workers  when all working together in a machine shop somewhere....  Anyway, thanks a lot to everyone for their help, I'll perhaps disappear, stop asking questions for a while, get some material and some rods and practice, practice, practice....
Reply:A couple of questions from a non-welder but curious person.1. The specs I find on weldmate welders all show 240V.  Are the AMP calculations (50A) for 240 or 120V ?  Is the welder 240 or 120?2. I have poor luck stabbing with 1/16 rod on thin metal also but it helped a lot to use a self-darkening helmet to see the rod approach the metal.  With a standard helmet I lose track of the straw before it invariably sticks before I can back away.  A $50 investment in a cheap self-darkening helmet might help.The worst of these welds look about as good as the best of mine.  You will be proud of that gate when you finish it! Congrats on your efforts.
Reply:Hi... Mine is the SIP Weldmate SWT130TP - that's what it is known as here in Aus - and it runs on 240Volts here. The little manual says the input fuse is rated at14A. The output is 55A (too high for little rods) to 140A.The output amps are completely divorced from the input amps - as the manual says:  " There is no direct connection between the mains supply and the output cables.    The welding current is induced by magnetic actions between the windings. The electrical characteristics are therefore changed to a safe voltage.  If, however, a person touches both the electrode and the earthed work piece a circuit is made and a small electrical current will flow which may be felt  to various degrees by different people under different conditions. E.g. dampness will always increase conductivity. But it is emphasised that the current can never reach above a level of complete safety on the output side of the transformer."  From that I sort of figure that we don't make the calculation in the way you are talking about at all.  And I put it all in because I find it kinda interesting and thought you might, too.     I don't have much of an understanding of electricity and seems pretty marvellous to me that the welder is harmless to me and creates the heat of the sun on the plate....  You are probably right about the self darkener... it might do me a lot of good. The whole first part of the process, striking the arc and beginning the weld, is done in the dark for me - I think I was saying somewhere that I had to move that little rod to quickly (to prevent burnthrough with 55A) that it was nearly off the job before my eyes could focus in on it....   It is a lot better now with the 2.5mm rod.  What I had was serious voltage problems and didn't know it.  Amongst all my other problems.   I'll  be proud when I can do welds like Grahame posted there - and his is 1.6mm, mine is 2mm. He shows it can be done. Something to aim for.    But you're right, it feels good to do something. Better than practicing on scrap, like I did, just welding things together and running beads and making nothing really.  I already feel a strange mixture of pride and embarrassment about the gate.  I wouldn't go skiting about it but I get a charge out of it.   regards, ab
Reply:I don't think anybody mentioned trying 6011 electrode . your machine just about has to be A.C. only . more expensive machines come  ac/dc .I agree that you ought to watch a more experienced welder show you how it's done. you might learn more in 15 minutes than you could in a month just guessing your way. Proper prep & a good CLEAN ground is ALL important , also. when i started my welding apprenticeship in 1965 , my instructors said " get every advantage you can, because you're going to need them". I turned out to be a darn good welder, but, probably not 1/2 as good as they were.[SIZE="5"Yardbird"
Reply:one thing that Joe said about watching the puddle that is soooo true.  One of the problems with the 6013 rod that I have noticed is the "flux" puddle is hard to distinguish from the metal.  You think you have a decent weld going until you chip LOL
Reply:Thanks for the added information. It's all gratefully received.  I'm trying to get a firm answer on whether my machine is AC or DC. I was thinking - don't know why - that the cheap machines like mine would be DC. You are probably right that it is AC, so that's interesting. Which is best - AC or DC?  And the remarks about the slag on the 6013 ring a bell.  I notice it when I try to fill holes. I pick a lumpy part of the existing weld and pour heat and more metal into it and then try to slop it over to the hole and often I appear to have done it alright. Then I chip the slag and the hole reappears. 6011.  I'll see if there's any available around here.  thanks again.   ab
Reply:Here are some welds with 6013 Lincoln fleetweld 37 1/16"  and 6013 hobart 447A 3/32".  The one on the left and top right is with 1/16" rod.  The lower right is 3/32".  The were each run with aproximately 60 amps A/C.  The material is 1/16" x 1.5"  and 1/16 x 3/4.  When I started using 6013, it took me quite a while to find the puddle or figure out what I was doing wrong.  Keep a short arc length and watch your joint.  If you don't see the puddle bridge the parts, then it won't be welded when you chip the slag away.6013 produces heavy slag so your need to keep the rod moving ahead of the slag.  You can travel pretty fast with 6013.I don't think switching to 6011 is the answer.  It is a fine rod and I like it.  However, it digs and will make you work harder to keep from burning the edges away. You need to stick with what you have, burn some more rods and make things easy on yourself until you can run consistent beads.  Feel free to grind and reweld. Attached ImagesLast edited by tapwelder; 04-09-2007 at 11:42 PM.
Reply:Thanks Tapwelder, that's pretty convincing because it is right there in with the gear I'm using and the job I'm trying to do.   Only that top left weld is welding edges, I think, is that right? The welds on the right are on two pieces of tubing laid together, welding wall to wall?  How did you do that one, the top left one,  - with the rod laid over to 10degrees and pointing from the edge side away from the edges?   Or what?  And working the tip which way? Back and forth across the join or along the join in more than one pass?  I haven't started my practice yet, haven't got any stock to weld, maybe today I'll get a chance to get out and get some.  I don't practice running beads because it seems so easy to do it. But doing the same thing along an edge join is a very different thing.  So I keep practicing that.   How come your pic was included in the text?  That happened to me once and once only. I don't know why. Maybe because there was only one pic attached?
Reply:My weld finish weld was not that good. Blind Freddy couldn't miss the slag on the bottom edge. It was getting near  dark and I had the wrong glasses on.If a optician can sort out glasses for welders that had the proper focal length the would be fortune it for him,surely.I use my 3x glasses from the chemist (drugstore -to you lot)I do agree with Tapweld on the 11's .Reckon you got problems with holes now. Try a firestick (11) and see what happens.Something is is sticking in  my head about the adjustment comment. I suspect the the lower amp adjustment travel has a jam in it and may need looking at by an electrician.A note for you fellas on the other side of the pond. I know the comment will be pull it apart and check it. Australian electrical regulations forbid unlicensed people opening a welding machine. It has to be a licensed electrical tradesperson.Some people are capable of wiring a plug or  a switch but a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. If one were to kill or injure someone it could well mean jail time or refusal of insurance when a house catches fire.Grahame
Reply:I don't know why the picture came out like that, I did attach it.  Cool.I do angle the rod in the direction of travel don't know what angle.  I did concentrate the heat on the heavier edge. I use small circlular movement on flat surfaces. You can see it at the begining and end on the weld--the weld is heavier on the tubing corner tubing than the edge tubing.I did some butt welds,  outside corner and inside corner welds too- all 60amps.  My camera doesn't close ups that well so, I didn't bother shooting them. I took 16 shots to get the photo above.
Reply:Does 'angle in the direction of travel' mean the rod is being dragged or does it mean it is being pushed?  Sorry to be so dumb but it's all welding talk and I'm not in the welding game, it's all new to me. I ask about them movements because it seems important to me. The only way I find to stop burning through is to keep that thing moving. And I've got in mind Grahame's tip about directing the rod to point the arc at the whole metal, not at the edge.   It is time for me to get some stuff and practice. I might have enough clues now to really get at it properly.  My camera is a canon a520 and it's got a close up method that's a little bit tricky to understand at first, for me anyway. I have to set it on manual focus and then I have to alter the focal length down to about 10centimetres or whatever I want and then I move the camera in and out until the picture in the rectangle in the centre of the screen is in sharp focus. then I shoot and it's always good unless I shake the camera or some other dumb thing.  just mention it in case your camera has something similar and its useful info.  regards, ab
Reply:The only way I find to stop burning through is to keep that thing moving. And I've got in mind Grahame's tip about directing the rod to point the arc at the whole metal, not at the edge.