As the dust settles

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All this turmoil has prompted lots of harsh rhetoric lately  about corporate suits and business practices and layoffs, out sourcing and off-shore businesses.  Some of it is no doubt justified but a lot of it strikes me as being a bit overblown. And some of it has been done by yours truly.  But it got me to reflecting about this blame game. Several posters have pointed the finger  at business for making crappy products, other have suggested that people are to blame for buying it.So, let's just think about that for a minute. People not only will buy crap - we demand crap.  Every man jack of us schmoozes around looking for the best deal, do we not?  We hummm and we haw and we like to dicker and bitch about the cost and we finagle the discounts when we can.  The American consumer has pretty much forced corporate America to come up with cheaper and ever cheaper ways to lay the product on the counter.  Is there a single one of you not bought anything from Harbor Freight?  I should say "us" because I have too.  And if you didn't buy it from Harbor Freight, I bet you (I) have some Chinese "cheaper alternatives" that you bought somewhere. And then we go around bragging about the good deal we got, do we not?  So what does this say to the Corporate "low-lifes and MBA's"?  Hell, they're just people, too.  In other words, some corporate bashing and blaming may be justified, but bottom line is if we didn't demand it cheap, they wouldn't make it cheap.  And one way to do that is to send the jobs offshore and another is to buy parts and raw materials from foreign suppliers.The plain truth is that we may want quality Made in USA products but we ordinarily are not willing to pay other Americans a living wage to make them for us.In addition to that, the enormous federal bureaucracy has just about regulated everybody to death and the lawsuit mentality of the public has taken advantage of it to the point that hardly anyone in business is safe from outrageous fines or lawsuits (or both) except for the damned lawyers that write the regulations that feed the fires.Americans have bought into the nanny government, demanding more and more services and protections from need, protections from want and now finally even protection from being offended, and in doing that we have traded away almost all of our presumed constitutional rights.  We have stood by and watched as the various governments -  city, county, state and federal have grown into this monstrosity that now employees every 4th American and every other one of them wants to tell you how to do & what you can do with your very own property that they then want to tax out of existence.  And then they want us to believe that its really for our own good.We are in danger of governing ourselves to death.  Can you really blame the businesses that flee offshore to escape from all that?  Sorry, but I can't and I don't.Now here is a case in point.  I have this old rolling junkyard of a Chevy Blazer that keeps getting me home safely every day so I keep patching it up and living with it.  I had to replace the heater core this past weekend.  Auto Zone sold me a new core for 20 bucks.  Did I ask if it was American made?  Or if they had said it was, would I have believed them?  Why, hell no.  And I didn't stand there & ask if there was a more expensive one either.  I bought it and installed it and marveled that anyone could make it, ship it and retail it for a 20 dollar bill, leaving me an extra $20 or so  to spend on bills or food or more likely, on my toys.Okay then.  So I am the owner of a little Hobart welder with a couple of foreign-made motors in it.  Did those motors enable Hobart to make an obscene profit?  I doubt it. Or did they just keep the price in line with the competition?  If they had offered me a choice to pay an extra $50 or $60 for an all-American welder, would I have bought it instead?  I don't know.  I was having a hard enough time deciding what to buy anyway, so it probably would not have been smart marketing on their part.So what, you ask, is the point of all this?  The point is that there is plenty of blame to go all the way around the corporate world and right back at us.  We demand cheap product and they deliver.  Or in the immortal words of that old sage of Okefenokee, "We have met the enemy and he is us."(Pogo Possum  1941 - 1973  R.I.P.)
Reply:Cutter, you do make some interesting points, some of witch I think I'll ponder on a while before I shoot off my mouth and  prove why the speed of light is faster than the speed of sound.It does strike me as a bit ironic that every one of us is sittin behind a computer with very damn little US content in it, bitchin.Probably it's a function of my age and geographic location too that I look at this CRAP masquerading as product and get a lot more enraged abut it than most folks.I have direct recollection of a lot of things many of you haven't even heard of, like back in the 60s, when you looked real careful at something to see if it was stamped U.S.A. or USA cause some Japanese folks found a way to slide their products into the American market.I also don't hold a whole lot of sympathy for workers who spent a whole lot more of their time figurin out how to do as little as possible on the job, or failed to enhance their marketable skills when the employer gave them the opportunity.  One of my intrests is a communications business, primarily 2 way radio, and that business spent over $100,000 sending employees to tech schools in the 90s, so the employee could come back and DEMAND more dollars per hour.  Funny thing is, all of those eployees are long gone, and so is the investment in their education.  The only positive to that situation is that the technology is also obsolete.Something has gone badly wrong in the employer/employee relationship in this country, and there is sufficient blame on both sides,  but the workplace has become a war zone between the employer and the employee.  I've got a pretty good hunch the seeds are well planted and cultivated by the time future employees graduate High School in the public system.  Actually, I think the seeds of alot of the problems in this country lay right square at the door of public education, or what passes for it.Back when my "stepsopn" graduated as an academic scholar on high honor roll, my gut told me something was wrong, and I thought on it for a while.  His Mom was always pissed off cause she said I knew him better than she did, and truth be told, I think I did.  I did run sort of a tally of what he had in his academic inventory, and compared it to mine when I graduated back in the dark ages, and sadly, his high school diploma was of lesser knowledge representation than what I had coming out of 8th grade.   I've also got a buddy who taught at the local BOCES till he couldn't stand being a babysitter any more.  He had to waste what should have been his class time for 2 weeks every year so a remedial teacher could come in to teach kids who were supposed to be Juniors to read a damn ruler.  I couldn't have gotten into 4th grade if I wasn't able to read a ruler.We all know the schools aren't doing the job, but when you talk to people about it, who are parents, they all KNOW their kid is one of the smartest, and has the best teachers.  The sad reality seems to be the parents don't even know how little they do know.The system has figured out that it's a whole lot easier to cheat a kid out of knowledge thanit is to teach, and, as a society, we now reap what has been sown.Across the board, differing factions vie to buy desired privilidge from government, and the end result is continuing diminishing return.  We all know people who have gotten to the point where they refuse to work any longer in their primary skill or craft, we even have a clever name for it, BURNOUT.  I suppose it's human nature to want more than you have, and that can be either a good thing, or a bad thing, depending on how you get what you want.  This was once an egalotarian country, where people found the opportunity to learn and earn, but since the 60s, and Lyndon's Great Society, the elitists in government have bought the votes of the entitlement people and grated on my ***.  Lofty goals are a wonderful thing, and acheiving them is a magnificent accomplishment, but there is no value to anything if youget it handed to you rather than earn it.It's interesting how a nation built on the Mayflower Compact model has managed to become a bunch of crybabys over the last 70 years, give or take.  Maybe that's why schools don't teach history any more.  I look at it as a repeat performence of the decline of Rome.  Just substitute Cable TV for Circus, and we do have the doll.  I think there would be rioting in the streets if Cable TV was shut down.Then again, I could be wrong, I was lamenting the loss of the written language till AlGore invented the internet for all of us to play on.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:Cutter, you are preaching to the choir!Franz, you have restored my faith in you.  Now I can think of you as an Old Fart again and not as just old.
Reply:Cutter,My $.02 on this. How about the Ceo's and the like, getting huge million dollar bonuses, all the while they are laying off workers, lowering quality and shipping jobs to other countries, like India. Have you ever called a 800 # and talked to someone in India? I have. I would say they don't deserve the bonus, it was the people that they layed off who earned it. Have you ever bought something, take a good pair of boots for example, worn them , liked them, a few years later you go buy the same boots. Guess what, they are not made as well the second time around. We will probably buy them anyway, because they are better than the other choices, but bottom line, they are still inferior.The dammanding crap thing, I don't think we demand it, we have no choice. Either pay a high price for supposedly high quality, which is still crap. Might as well buy the cheap crap and just replace it when it goes. I always buy " The best" but I am usually let down.The lazy american worker has not helped the situation. Like Franz said, bragging about how little they do and how much they get paid. I have no simpathy for them when they get canned. Unions that put quotas on how much can be done in a day, six guys at a road work site, one guy demontrating how a shovel works, the other five trying to prove that the shovels can't stand upright without assistance from them.As far as Hofart goes, The foreign made motors did make them an obscene amount of extra money. Many of us would not have bought them if we wern't under the illusion that it was made in the USA. Not to mention just the cost savings on millions of cheaper parts.I'd say the point of all this is that we will continue to be scammed and ripped off by big business until more people take a stand, like we did,  but not try to talk yourself into feeling guilty about making that stand because maybe now a few people don't like you anymore, who gives a crap if they do or don't. The way I see it, this is the only way we will start to get good quality goods, really made in the USA, for a good price! And maybe at the same time, show the average American worker that they better start working hard for their money , increasing productivity and keeping the work here.
Reply:Interesting quote in the Fast Company article:Steve Dobbins (President of Carolina Mills) " We want clean air, clearwater, good living conditions, the best healthcare in the world- YET we aren't willing to pay for anything manufactured under these conditions"
Reply:The way that I see,  the marketing people have been taking liberties for many years with the products they try to sell.  Number one that comes to mind is McDondalds and thier 100 % pure beef deal.I don't care where the parts of my machines are made. as long as the unit works according to what I based my decision to buy on.  As for Hobart and what went on there, I believe that is an employee employer relationship thing happening there and none of my business.  I lurked around that forum before joining to see what the guys were like etc.  I decided to join not because the site was Hobart, but because of the guys that built the board.  I wish that Rock is okay with whatever happened, but outside of that, it's none of my business.  IMO if he had wanted it to be anyone's business, he would have contacted either through the forum, or other guys on the board that have a friendship with him.Things come and go, I don't have the time to get involved with what my machine has for parts inside of it, I do have time for when it does not work and currently it is working.  You can bet your *** that if it fails and they say to me that all they have is a motor from China, I will tell them to install it.Ceo's paying themselves lots of money, big bonus's etc, well that would be the same thing as your general lazy worker.  Just on a smaller scale.  Sick of unions organizing all thier workers so that they basically produce nothing and want alot of money to do it.  I have no time or patience for unions nor lazy workers of any kind.So the way that I see it, we all collectively created all these problems, everyone wants something for nothing, big pay for little work, or big and unreasonable money in the way of bonus's and the like.  We are all paying for it now and its going to get worse.I cannot change what is going on as it has been going on since before my time, it will one day crash.  I can only look after my own three little square feet and that is what I concentrate on.  Do you really think a bunch of guys on a forum has any power to change anything?  do you think Hobart/Miller really care, I highly doubt it.  Those guys are in a different world my friends, this is peanuts to them.The basics, common sense.  I have 8 guys under me, and simply tell them all, a decent days work for a decent days pay.  If you can't do that, then save me the frustration of firing you.  Somehow along the way, common sense and working hard got to be forgotten.  I am kind of a hard assed guy, there is no grey area with me.  I believe in working and using good old fashioned common sense.  I try to weigh all the crap that comes my way daily as to what is important and what is not.  What crap is WORTHY of my time and is NOT.Hobart/Miller putting in a couple of parts from other countries really does not warrant my attention, I see it as a total waste of my time to address the situation more than this post.  They make a good product, they have thier website devoted to not only thier product but others.  they offer good customer service, like what the hell else do you want?I rambled enough now, I hope that all this rhetoric is coming to an end and we can get back to talking about welding and like subjects.There's a method to the madness, disregard the method and the madness begins!!
Reply:Franz, I am sorry but i have got to disagree with you on the school thing. I am currently a junior in high school, and I'm am guessing your ex-stepson was about as close to being retarded and Micheal Jackson is to being white. I currently know more math than every adult in my family, grandparents, everything. I have a feeling i could work matrices and other algebra problems of high complexity better than you could. I'm not meaning to affend you or tell you that you are a fool, nothing of the like. Just that it seems to me that your stepson either did not try at all, was smart as a dirt clod, or both. I also have a basic knowledge of trigenometry and a little of calculus, and this is about where every junior with any amount of effort is in my school. To make matters even better, i've been teaching it all to myself this year. I have attended very few school days so far this year because of health problems. I hope my side of the story weighs in with you at least a little. Thanks for hearing me.Lean mean TIG weldin' machineSquarewave 175
Reply:Originally posted by Customwelds  To make matters even better, i've been teaching it all to myself this year. I have attended very few school days so far this year because of health problems. I hope my side of the story weighs in with you at least a little. Thanks for hearing me.
Reply:Custom, my stepson is a poster child for -0- population groth.Sorry about abbreviatin yer name, but this could become a lengthy tretis and my fingers are tired.I first met him when he was 15.  He was then on probation for stealing his mom's winter card and going joy riding with 3 of his buds while skipping school.  He totaled the car attempting to fly it over a railroad crossing, and he and his 3 cohorts (badasses in their own minds) were taken into custody and held for the cops by a fat housewife.He was also operating a pot sales business out of his mom's house, in a state where her license to practice nursing would have been revoked had he been busted for the dopehouse.  My wife was working 60 hours a week to keep things together, and felt unwelcome in the houae she was paying for.I enlightened him on my feelings the first time we met, and the reality of respect, you give it to me ands I'll give it to you, you want to go another way, we can do that too.The day I loaded the belongings into the U haul, he threw a phone across the room at his mother.  I politely explained to him I did NOT think I was King ****, I knew I was king, his mom was queen, and he was a turd.  I'm sure he understood, his neck was in my left hand and his eyeballs were the size of baseballs according to his mom, and I'll accept her opinion since she is a medical professional.  NO, his feet were NOT touching the floor.Now we all know about those "permanent" school records, and I know they really do exist.  We also know "teachers" and administrators can and do select certain kids to make examples of.  At my insistance, his mom had picked up his school record from the school, and hand carried them to the new school.  I took the opportunity to sanitize those records, and I do have experience in sanitization.   4 weeks into the new school year, the old school was calling my wife's former place of employment insisting on knowing where she had moved, so they could forward the rest of his school record.  Her replacement had been told what information to give the original school district.  Ask yourself, jsut how smart does an education administrator have to be to believe my wife's replacement telling them she thinks my wife went into witness protection?When the boy started at Hilton, I informed him of the exact procedure he was to follow when he got in the **** and was sent to the office, 1, page me, 2, keep your mouth shut till I get there.Oddly, he was able to remember that.I made the trip 1 time, and straightened up the asst principle who was sitting in front of a picture of himself standing next to a building at CamRahn wearing a Green Baret.  After we got that straight, I asked the principle and his boyfriend to explain exactly why I was there.  Oddly, they concluded the whole situation had merely been a misunderstanding.The boy managed to convince his mom and District he should be allowed to avail himself of the facility called Resource Center.  To make it short, he got into a situation where he didn't have to complete any test on time, so he could get the correct answers the following day from his buddy, and complete the test the next day.  The District Custodian filled me in on how it works, and if the custodian knows, the administration sure as hell should.My wife got the call from the English teacher informing her the boy was a "disruptive influence, and she had complaints about him from girls".  I restrained the Doberman while they screamed at each other for half an hour.  For the remainder of the week, the boy attended English with a recorder in his pocket.  He could not have been a disruptive influence, he would have had to stand in line to do so.  My wife's only comment was "when is that weoman going to teach anything, let alone English.   Oddly, the boy had no more problems with English after my wife made a call to the principal and enlightened her as to our knowledge of exactly what was happening in said classroom.  (NY is a 1 party concent state for recording, so don't bother.)That summer, he decided to learn to weld.  After 15 minutes with the MIG gun, he decided he wasn't suited to welding, it actually simulated work too closely for his tastes.The following year, I got boy into BOCES, where he was supposed to study HVAC.  My wife and I attended parent's night in October.  She was pissed at me because I told her exactly what he was pulling in class, and switched to pissed at him when the teacher, who became my buddy, confirmed my diagnosis.For the balance of that year, boy sort of did his work in shop, cause the teacher and I communicated regularly.The following year, boy got a CoOp slot at Eastman Kodak, working in the HVAC shop, making $6.50 an hour.  He also got his first car, witch became my nightmare within 3 days.  I may relate those details later.  Boy fit into Kidak well, he was a lazy worker, and he was the pot connection for his co workers.I met his forewoman, and I guarandamntee she was inthe job for only one reason, her gender.  That too is another story.Boy left my house the day he addressed me as "Fu~~~r, and informed me I had nothing to say about how he talked to his mother"   He moved into the tennant house on the property.Shortly after that, I closed down his visiting pot head buddys being on the property.Due to downsizing at Kodak, he left there at the end of the school year, and was referred to a Union contractor for employment.  For some strange reason, that shop offered him a job, and apprenticeship.  Evidently, the union wasn't quite as interested, but I pulled a favor and solved that problem.When it came time to start his apprenticeship, he learned he had to pee in the bottle for the Union.  Boy informed the company that had offered him a job starting at $16 an hour + benefits with a company truck 2 years out to shove the job, he don't pee in no bottle for any job.Boy took a job working for a residential HVAC shop making $8.00 per hour, where he installs duct work and shlepping furnaces into basements.He continues to hang onto his driver's license by a thread, and has the honor of getting 4 tickets in one day from a Deputy who rarely writes 10 tickets a month.6 months after graduation, he threw a temper tantrum, and ripped up his diplomas, took a baseball bat to the furniture, and threatened to shoot his roommate.  Later that evening, he met 8 large cops, got to lay on the ground, and changed his place of residence to the county jail.  When 135# of pisspot arrived there, the jailer handed him the phone, and asked what number he wanted to call.  Boy informed the jailer he could shove the phone up his fat a$$.You, more closely resemble a 16 year old who helps me out from time to time, and collects antique hit & miss engines.  He's only a Jr, and laready has 2 college offers with a full ride, and it ain't because of the public schools.Last year, NY had a huge scandal over the inability of 80% of the kids to pass Math A Regents exam.  The newspaper here put the exam on line and both the wife and I wrote it to see how hard it really was.  This is the exam that is required for graduation in NY, and we both scored in the 90s.  60% of the exam was based on the Pethagorean theorum.   The content of that test was 8th grade math when I was in school.The state's solution was to lower passing to 45% and rewrite the exam for this year.I happen to spend time in the local schools, and I can assure youNO teaching is going on.  What is happening is attempting to impart enough information to the kids to pass what the administration thinks will be on the test.I also happen to have a copy of the District Teachers Union contract, and I assure you the most important point in the document is the dress code for teachers prohibiting see thru blouses on female teachers.Your statement that you already know more than your entire family also intrests me.  Let an old man tell you something, and I don't mean it as a putdown,  You don't yet have a germ of an idea what you don't know.  I assure you that by your 25th birthday you will be amazed how smart your parents got from now until you are 25.When you are 16, it's real easy to know how smart you are, when you're 25, you'll have an idea how much you don't know.I've been there, and I do remember.  I'll bet a whole lot of the other guys on this board have too.My fingers are tired, and I'll drop this for now.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:Last eve, my wife and I hired a sitter for the children and went out for an evening of test-driving pickemup trucks and a fancy dinner at Le Taco Bell.  Long story, so I'll skip to the good part.  Shortly after arriving, the power flickered for an instant, and the computers shut down.  Panic went through that place faster than I could ever imagine.They were taking orders on napkins (first time they've gotten an order correct in quite a while), an idea I actually appreciated.  But their "shift-manager" wasn't cetain how to tally the total, so told her staff to just do the best they could.  Out of about 8 employees on duty, ranging in age from about 16 to about 30, exactly ZERO could figure sales tax, and only one could make change ( it wasn't the shift-manager).Ask me why I homeschool my children.....
Reply:Aaron, around here, it's called Chez Taco Bell, but I think it's the same chain operated swill pit.The employees must all be from a large family cause they exhibit the same mannerism and IQ.My only question to you, did you double check the addition and show them how to do simple multiplication with the good old Eberhard Faber word processor/calculator?Please Aaron, tell me you and your bride didn't castigate the employees, or damage their prescious self esteam.Do I wonder why you home school?  NO, sadly, I understand!Government only exists cause Sears can't hire all the idiots, and now Taco swill is taking on the remaining fools.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:Total came to something like $8.80 and the I handed the counter-person a $20.  She stared at me blankly for a minute before asking if I had the exact change.  I told her no but my change would be $11.20, and she smiled and replied, "can I trust you on that?"I answered, " well I hope so, since you can't do the math."That was just before my wife elbowed me in the arm.
Reply:2.0, I must ask, are our wives related, and did yours play basketball in nursing school?Mine sure learned to throw a wicked elbow when she played guard for Sacred Heart.  She is only 5 feet tall, but she CAN take out a much larger player, and knock the wind out of me with one properly placed elbow.As you egressed (notice how polite I'm being post castigation) the "resturant" did you hear "Do you have to be like that" or a similar statement coming from your wife's mouth?Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:I find myself wondering, am I the only one here who remembers eating on a rail dining car, and the resemblance of Aaron's experience to the dining car, where you had to write your own order, because only one employee on the car was able to read and write, as well as add up your bill?Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:Originally posted by Franz 2.0, I must ask, are our wives related, and did yours play basketball in nursing school?Mine sure learned to throw a wicked elbow when she played guard for Sacred Heart.  She is only 5 feet tall, but she CAN take out a much larger player, and knock the wind out of me with one properly placed elbow.As you egressed (notice how polite I'm being post castigation) the "resturant" did you hear "Do you have to be like that" or a similar statement coming from your wife's mouth?
Reply:Originally posted by Franz ....am I the only one here who remembers eating on a rail dining car...
Reply:Originally posted by Aaron I have actually never even been on a train.  My wife wants to fix that, and take the family on a "historic" train ride.
Reply:Aaron, while Amtrac is about as comparable to passenger rail service as the current Public Education System is to pre 1968 Public Schools, I'd recommend you partake of the experience.The dining cars are gone, and I believe so are the Pullmans, and due to welded rail, you'll never hear the wheels click across the rail jopynts, but it's something you should do.If your kids are old enough to handle the experience, take them along, if not velcro the kids to the wall at home, add ducttape, and go with the wife.For you, a GPS unit might be very helpful so you can get back to some very interesting junque piles you'll spot as you cross flyover country.I can't even get to Detroit from here via rail, unless I ride the Amtrac bus for the last hour, how's that for government subsidised progress.Best part of riding Amtrac, there isn't the manditory idiot who has to announce "here we go" as the train leaves the station.  Most frightening part, Amtrac employs female engineers.  At least they don't have steering wheels up in the cab.  Nice part, no metal detector or luggage inspection.  Bad part, they still feel they can expect you to arrive early and wait around the station.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:Yeah sorry i took it kind of personally Franz, i do agree to a point. Thanks for elaborating. Cutter, my spelling and comp is usually because i get in a hurry to post on here so i don't forget what i'm posting! haha. I also don't try to do anything proper online either, hehe. As for saying i knew more than my family, I didn't mean altogether, sorry about that. I just meant I have more "booksmarts", like math skills, proper essay writing, the stuff you don't gain from life. I completely agree, my grandpa has vast knowledge that I have just barely tapped in real world situations. Sorry about the vaugness of my post, I just get flustered when people condescend on young'n's n such and took it wrongly. I do agree, it is hard to find teachers that aren't corrupt and help. I'm ahead of my classmates that make school every day in most areas and I'm not sure i can trust administration to pass me to my senior year, I'm in all seriousity worried sh!tless about it. WHen i do go though, i realized i can write better than my english teacher, and my history teacher would rather talk about his 4 g/f's than teach, but when he does teach, he's a good guy and i learn a lot from him, half of the equation is listening...My concert band director is a royal male body part. He will tell me I am the best tuba player we have, then screw me over. I've done so much for him it isn't funny, and because of my absence, he has given me grades below a 75. I'm very upset about that. On the other hand, my jazz director would do ANYTHING for me if it would help me. He is truly a good hearted man, and an old fart . He never talks to me like i'm an idiot, he's always nice(w/ the occasional frustrated thing), and he's there to help. People like him make the worrying and trying more meaningfull to me.Lean mean TIG weldin' machineSquarewave 175
Reply:Custom ain't no need to go all appologetic with this bunch of guys.  We understand far more than you do the abalmination that is masquerading as Public Education in the country today.You have already figured the system out, and seem to be prying an education out of good NEA members in spite of their goal of turning every student into another Dummycrat voting handout dependant begger, and that's good.School systems vary across the country, and the one thing they all seem to have in common is a lack of educating.  NEA and their bought  & paid for politicians have slowly changed an EDUCATION system to a MATRICULATION system that has evolved into a masturbation (find a pre 1950 dictionary before yelling at me) system.  Scientific calculators are wonderful things, but will never be a substitute for the Mark 1 human brain.  By the time most people can find the correct formula, and install it in the calculator old farts like me can often have the problem solved with the Eberhard Faber calculator and slide rule.  Many major structural failures have already occurred because of computer and scientific calculator reliance, because the guy who used him lacked the underlying skill to know in the back of his head he had the wrong answer.  16 is along way back in the mirror for me, even with my trifocular welding helmet, but I'm damn glad I came up when I did, before the concept of anesthatising annoyingly inquisitive students and classifying them ADD or ADHD and collecting more taxpayer $$$$.Then again, I also remember that all information ended at the school library, and the town didn't even have a library, where today you have the internet, and access to limitless information at your fingertips.  It's a tradeoff.I've long felt it's only necessary to teach a kid to read and write, and give him basic math skills, as long as you instill a thurst for knowledge in that kid in the process.  The rest is all in a book, or on the internet, and a knowledge hungry person will seek it out and find it.You appear to already be ahead of your contemporarys, because you know the system ain't delivering what it is supposed to.  You also know there are other sources of information, and how to use them.Where you go from here is entirely in your hands, and no NEA member can hold you back.  Choose your fights, and be fairly certain you can win them before you engage.  Always remember the speed of light is much faster than the speed of sound; That enables people to look very smart, until you hear them prove otherwise.You're among a good bunch here, and we'll do our best to keep youon the right path. Never be afraid to ask questions, and for clarification if you feel the need.  We're here to teach you, and all you need do is learn well, and hopefully, pass the information along when your turn comes.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:Franz, I have a condo in North Conway, NH. There still is Pullman dinning car experience to be had there. With the clickity clack of the tracks. It stops running just a bit before Thanksgiving. It is a great family afternoon experience. It's called the North Conway Scenic Railroad.
Reply:Scott, does that operation still have the wood fired cookstove aboard the diner, or have they converted to modern?Last one I was on was comin thru Nevada in 70, elderly Black waiter impecibly dressed in a white coat set the second basket of rolls in front of me as I was swallowing them, and simply asked "just back son" as he watched me devouring the content of that basket.I replied I was, and as he returned with the next basket, he told me to enjoy the rolls, and added it took his Grandbaby a while to get back to enjoyin his meals too when he got home.  I remember glancing past him, and seeing the kitchen crew holding another basket of rolls at the ready.  I couldn't tell you how many I ate, but they sure were good.MickyDs will never replace that kind of eating, and the same quality of people sure don't work for Micky.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:Public education huh.  Well I have two boys in the system and they are doing quite well.  They are learning all those things I was supposed to learn and have forgotten.  What's really changed is parents.  They are too wrapped up in what they want and could care less about what their kids need.  Schools can't discipline kids any more (not their decision) and very few kids have discipline.  Ohh if we say something harsh to them we will damage their self esteem.  I go round and round with wifey about self esteem.  Trust me there are a lot of things about schools and such I have a problem with, but lets cut them some slack, they are people just trying to do their best like us.  If we can't handle that it's time to run for school board.  Right?  I had to set my helper straight the other day.  He is close to graduating and said he was getting a high "C".  He said well thats above average.  I said excuse me!  He said well everybody knows a "C" is average.  I said Uh  Uhhh in college a "B" is average not that many jobs out there for the average guy.
Reply:Originally posted by Franz I find myself wondering, am I the only one here who remembers eating on a rail dining car, and the resemblance of Aaron's experience to the dining car, where you had to write your own order, because only one employee on the car was able to read and write, as well as add up your bill?
Reply:Franz,I can't say for sure,as there are 3 or 4 cars. But there was not ever one in the cars that I have ridden in. I just went last this past Nov. The one thing that would come close though, is the help, they are all old retired Railroaders who run this line.Remember the Story of the Trojan Horse.  Consider it being used with the Made in USA Label.How many China Men can ITW pack into the Hobarts and Millers before the China Men come spilling out with complete replacements for the internals.  It starts with a motor....That should be obvious from watching the AutoMotive Industry. Maybe the Hobart won't become a rebadged Astro wearing the Made in USA Label or maybe it will given enough time.  Assembled in the USA sounds better but obviously that would effect sales and that is the bottom line for profits.
Reply:When I was a kid, I made several train trips from Calif. to Michigan. I remember the dining car and the dome car. And the click-click of the rails.