Schooled welder in non-talent shop?

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I graduated from Hobart Institute of Welding Technology Pipe and Structural Program about 5 years ago. I dont know how many of you know of the school but from my understanding it is one of the best in the country. Anyways, i have now made it too a shop near my house that are fans of "gorilla welding". We work with hydraulic pipes - 6-12" pipe used to hold 5000 psi on heavy machinery. I have been told that I need to lose my "pretty" welding techniques for their techniques. I understand that welds dont ALWAYS have to robotic quality, but visually is as much important in its ability to hold as "crank up the heat and go"?
Reply:Sounds like they don't want you making them look bad. Millermatic 251Spectrum 300 PlasmaEverlast PowerTig 250EXEverlast PowerCool W300Harris / Victor OACraftsman 13 Speed Drill PressProTools Air/Hydraulic Bender48" BrakeCompressor, Notchers, Grinders, etc.
Reply:Secretly i'd look for another job because I will damned if anyones gonna tell me to waste my talent. I know its a tuff time for work but I wouldn't stay there long.Last edited by slim83; 10-10-2010 at 07:58 PM.Reason: typo
Reply:Originally Posted by RugarSounds like they don't want you making them look bad.
Reply:Starting out, I concentrated making a SOUND weld first, and a PRETTY weld second...Over time, I was able to clean up my technique so that my sound welds were Visually Appealing...and I started taking more and more Pride in my work...Those Hard Earned lessons serve me well now, as my Employers appreciate the detail, and quality of my work... MY Standards exceed those of the company I work for, and they reward me for my efforts.Bottom line is, I weld the way I weld, and I DO NOT Lower my standards for anyone.Neither should YOU.As stated above, it may serve YOUR Best Interests to look for employment elsewhere...Later,Jason
Reply:My guess is that shop is probly not paying you up to your welding skill level either.  Find a shop that appreciates good welding and is willing to pay accordingly, or, work for yourself and let your customers pay you for your skill.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Sounds like a place I once worked (nothing to do with welding).  Early on, I had people telling me "Slow down, you're making us look bad."Didn't slow down, got promoted, spent 33 years doing (mostly) interesting work in a lot of technical areas.  Even got called back in (at higher $$) for a year and a half after I retired.Keep doing good work - and maybe look for a better workplace.John
Reply:Unfortunately, in some of these cheap-a$$ monkey shops, the only way to earn a raise, no matter good an employee you are, is to find a better employer.  Alot of shops will just take a good worker and run the guy into the ground, for the same cheap wage they pay the other goofs that dont care.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Well every guy in my family has been a welder all there life and when I first started welding all the older guys tell me that I try too hard to make a " pretty" bead. I always try to make it look as good as I can. They say it's not always "pretty" that holds. All of them break the knob off when they weld and from what I've seen, they don't always look "pretty" but I've never seen any of there welds break and they've never fail a welding test. So It kinda rubbed off on me. I now worry about penetration more than how it looks. And now that I've been doing it for a few years I'm starting to be able to make it purrdy and penetrate. Too me, if your **** don't break then blow what they say off. I think jealousy is a factor when your working at a company full of guys trying to be the best.
Reply:I agree with everyone else - sounds like they don't want the new guy outshining them. As has been pointed out hot doesn't always mean good penetration, and neither does pretty, but if you KNOW you are doing a quality weld then to heck with what the other welders are saying, and yes I would be quietly keeping an eye out for a new job in a different shop.I ran into that in a shop where my first week the union shop steward was being teased about having kicked out a repair that was a hit and miss weld on a crack - as in you could see daylight in places. I was the only one I ever saw clean metal before welding, or stop to turn up the heat as needed, or clean slag off between passes, etc'. After 2 months of nobody telling me I wasn't doing a good enough job I was suddenly let go with no explanation. RuthieThe family toys:Miller Maxstar 150 S, with TIGGoWeld baby wirefeedOxy/Acetylene rig
Reply:You say you went to a welding school 5 years ago and now have a welding job.  You didn't say what you've been doing for the last 5 years.  If its not been welding then maybe you are the problem.  Even if you've been welding for those 5 years you could still be the problem.  I'm not trying to bash you here, I'm just these typing words as an example.Those guys in that shop have been there and it looks as if they will continue to be there.  If they do indeed weld 6-12" pipe that will hold 5000PSI then maybe what they're telling you is right.  At that working pressure its some pretty thick and hard pipe and their welds are going to haft to be pretty good at least, and you must look at them as "they've been making it here doing what they've been doing so all that they are saying and doing can't be all that wrong".I'm assuming your "gorilla welding" as meaning big thick and wide caps is their rule.  Well if I were you're foreman you'd be putting big thick and wide caps on every weld you made if its those size piping and at those working pressures.   Skinny cold welds isn't going to make it IMO.Young inexperienced welders have a tendency to jump to conclusions and you must consider this when you think something like this.  You must also evaluate yourself when evaluating others to make it a fair deal.  I've did and said the same as you but that was many years ago when I too was a bronk, so I wouldn't worry too much about it right now.  I think if I were you I'd listen to them and prove myself either right or wrong.  That way you gain experience.  Quitting you gain nothing. Again, IMO.Cheating on welds is one thing and experience is going to teach what cheating actually means.  Running heat isn't cheating until the heat gets unreal, because running heat is skill.  Usually cheating means running cold.  Cold fills quick, heat doesn't.  The better you get the more heat you will be able to run.  Running more heat than you can handle is "welding in the red" as I call it, and will probably get you runned-off.  You need to weld within your skill level so you stay in the "gray".  Then you will probably make the job."A pretty weld isn't a strong weld.  An ugly weld is a strong weld".  That's what I was told about 35 years ago.  In a way - that can be a true statement if that pretty weld was run cold, but an ugly uneven weld has weak places and even if they were make at the exact heat those weak places can hurt it in strength.  BTW, his welds were ugly as hell. Don't be too quick to judge, but be quick to learn.  I say give it a go.  If you do and get your hand-in then come back here and tell me what you think then.  I'll bet your opinion will change.  Mine did those many years ago and for the good. Good luck manLast edited by slowhand; 10-11-2010 at 07:23 PM.
Reply:Humm. I make pretty no make that beautiful welds and I ain't slow either. Let me tell you slowhand just because someone is an old dog don't make them a top notch welder. If I had a dime for everytime someone doubted my abililty and then got straight up smoked I could retire. IMO a pretty weld means it was done with proper heat and proper welding tech. Once your cap reaches past the pipe it ain't gonna be any stronger matter of fact your just makin your h.a.z larger and a failure at the toe of that ugly *** gorilla weld more likely. Slowhand your a pipeliner aren't you?
Reply:I am keeping my eye out secretly for other options, not being a pipefitter though. I wish i took pictures of the last welds that left on pipes. Basically, the other guys burned in the welds, high heat - spatter and globs of metal everywhere. porosity everywhere. quite honestly i dont know why it held, if i was the boss i would of fired both the guy that welded it and me for covering it up. I was instructed to put on the cap passes and make them look pretty. my definition of pretty weld slowhand, is proper penetration, heat, wire, etc, they dont always have dimes, or the <<<<<<. it comes the the point of when do you stop half-@ssing things and do it right the first time. I understand they have to make money but at what cost...
Reply:Ok, Ok, Ok, calm down.  I'm not a "bad guy".  I'd bet if you were across the pipe from me you'd like me, so lets take this slow and easy, OK.  We're all friends here and this is just a conversation.  So lets take it easy, especially on me because I'm new here.Yes I'm a pipeliner and yes I've been one for about all my life. And yes I have worked in those small fast sloppy non-union shops before that quantity was first and quality was second.  And yes I've also been the one that the owner has said "I want you to make sure that nothing goes out of here that don't look right".  Actually doing that got me fired one time because I eventually rejected a weld that the owner himself had made.   That was the ultimate wrong thing to do.   (he had it coming BTW)Yes I'm used to working with actual welding inspection and almost every rod I've burned in the last 35 or so years has been x-rayed.  So I do know what a good weld looks like.The statement that hydraulic pressure @ 5000psi is normal has passed through my mind all day.  All the hydraulic systems I've ever worked on I was under the assumption the max pressure was around 2000psi.  And I've also been thinking about how stressed a 12" piece of pipe at 5000PSI  working pressure "on a machine" is a time bomb IMO.  My mind says it better be heavy wall or someone is in for a surprise.  A leak at 5000psi will cut you in two. (Yes I've worked with 5000psi piping before).  So after running these things through my head today I'm having trouble buying all thats been said so far but I'm just an o'le dumb pipeline so what do I know.What do I know:  I know how to make a weld that will do just that - and I can stand there and make them all day long, and you can do with them what you want.  Uphill or downhill.  I still say.  Give it some time then come back and say what you think then.  Quitting you gain nothing.  Trying to make it there you will gain experience.  Yes that experience may eventually make you quit, but when you do you will know the exact facts of why.  A bronk welder isn't going to know the whole story, even when you think you do.  Been there done that.  If you're standing there cold-packing welds taking forever - and your welding pardner is trying to get you to keep up with him and saying stuff then thats one thing, but if you can't keep up even if you try then that is another thing.  Yea quality is important because I try my best on everything I do, but slow is slow.  If thats your problem then maybe you need to learn some real life stuff.  Welding schools ain't always right.  I know because I also went to one, and yes - - they were not right.  If he could do it he'd probably be out there making the big $$$.  If not then tell me why not. Ok, I'm done.  I've made you all mad now.  But I didn't mean to.  I'm just like that I guess.Good luck guys.
Reply:Ok, Ok, Ok, calm down.  I'm not a "bad guy".  I'd bet if you were across the pipe from me you'd like me, so lets take this slow and easy, OK.  We're all friends here and this is just a conversation.  So lets take it easy, especially on me because I'm new here.Yes I'm a pipeliner and yes I've been one for about all my life. And yes I have worked in those small fast sloppy non-union shops before that quantity was first and quality was second.  And yes I've also been the one that the owner has said "I want you to make sure that nothing goes out of here that don't look right".  Actually doing that got me fired one time because I eventually rejected a weld that the owner himself had made.   That was the ultimate wrong thing to do.   (he had it coming BTW)Yes I'm used to working with actual welding inspection and almost every rod I've burned in the last 35 or so years has been x-rayed.  So I do know what a good weld looks like.The statement that hydraulic pressure @ 5000psi is normal has passed through my mind all day.  All the hydraulic systems I've ever worked on I was under the assumption the max pressure was around 2000psi.  And I've also been thinking about how stressed a 12" piece of pipe at 5000PSI  working pressure "on a machine" is a time bomb IMO.  My mind says it better be heavy wall or someone is in for a surprise.  A leak at 5000psi will cut you in two. (Yes I've worked with 5000psi piping before).  So after running these things through my head today I'm having trouble buying all thats been said so far but I'm just an o'le dumb pipeliner so what do I know.When I'm working with a fast welding pardner I know I've got to pick it up and try to stay up or I'm going to look slow.  And if I'm with a slower pardner then usually I'll let up and give him a chance to keep up so he don't look bad either (but not always the case).  Quality and speed is easy to get, its called skill my friends.  Sloppy and fast has a word too but I can't say it on here. hahaWeld within your skill level "and push it" so you make yourself learn to get better , and faster.  A welder thats being pushed will get better because I did.   A welder thats a quitter is a non-working welder. I still say - don't be too quick to judge all of this stuff.  Get some experience for yourself then you can make an honest judgment.  Saying something with no more experience that it appears you have is a rash judgment IMO.  Give it some time.  I believe Time will Tell, and time will help you the most.  I promise.  And welding with a faster welder is good.  It makes you dig in and work and think.  All the time you're getting better.  That too I promise.  Working with a slower welder makes you sloppy.  That is hard to shake off when the time comes to pick it back up.Just my wasteful thoughts.Good luck guysLast edited by slowhand; 10-12-2010 at 08:14 PM.
Reply:Slowhand you can say that again......oh you already did....just differentMiller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!
Reply:Slowhand your right he probably should stick it out and see where it leads. I was just saying give the guy the benefit of a doubt. Just because he's a newbie doesn't mean he don't know something just ain't gonna be for him. I'm sure the OP wanted to produce nice welds the way he learned he should. By the way i do gotta lot of respect for you cuz your a seasoned pipeliner. its just that I'm trying to give the OP a pups opinion. I'd probably brother in law with you if you'd have me
Reply:I am also not looking to pick a fight, or insult anyone, but you did not mention if your production is even with the " butchers" or a little less for quality sake, or if it is way off of average pace. If your production is adequate you definately have a point, and always, I said always be looking for the next job and " quality of life" increase through work conditions, benefits, and pay increases, never run from a job, run too the next job but do your homework before you jump. If they are in fact trying to hold you back to cover their inabilities then you are 100% right."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400