Weld Quality

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Recently, while reading posts here and a couple other weld boards got me to wondering about the quality and integrity of the welding world.It seems there are a lot of posts  "I've got every machine Miller and Lincoln makes, cnc plasma cutter and a laser machine.....what rod should I use to weld 1/4" carbon steel?" I also recently welded a plant hanger for a buddy. It's an old, heavy corn sheller wheel mounted on a steel post about 8' high. Originally he took it to a local weld shop to have the wheel welded to the post then took it home and set the post in concrete. First plant he hung on it the wheel fell on his head!! When I got it the weld looked like a 12 year old with a propane torch and coat hanger did it. I'll be first to say I can weld but am no welder. Being in maintenance I've welded pipe, structural, machinery, etc. But I also know when to tell them they need to get somebody a lot better than me. With all the information available right at your fingertips is it necessary to ask if you can build a fire escape ladder for a 4 story building with a HF 40 amp stick welder and 3/16 7018 rods? So I guess my question is, has it always been this way or is it now that welding seems more popular and accessible? AlA man is judged by what's between his legs...always ride a good horseMiller DialArc HFLincoln Classic 300DThermal Arc 181iPowermax 45Scotchman Ironworker(2) BridgeportsOkomota Surface GrinderAutoCAD 2010
Reply:GoodMorning SmokinP hope UR aok, Are you gonna cowboy up or just lay there and bleed?I grin everytime see that  ~~~Two young cowboys, Joe and Hank were out on the circuit enjoying Rodeo life and mostly riding bulls. They  hooked in on an event and Joe got drawn for a mean SOB bull... it throwed him EZ and drug him around the arena with his leg caught up in the ropes... Doc braced the leg and gave him a crutch and patched up numerous wounds. Hank had his turn up next and that bull was even more onry, It ripped ol' Hank a new one for sure...he was took off to the hospital in an ambulance and spent a coupla hours in Urgent care getting patched up and casts slapped on him head to toe, and up to a hospital bed to stay.So Joe hobbles in and sets down and is about to throw in the towel for the two a them for that Rodeo, when Hank all wrapped head to toe in bandages and hung out to dry with pulleys and weights smiled and said "Good news Joe, we drew them two Ez bulls for tomorrows finals"So, don't quit, it ain't the cowboy way.~PapaLion  2008~~~~Hmmm  quality work these days seems lower on everything.  IMHO it would be good to direct young fellas at about 15 years old into math and design skills matched with intense OJT with mentors. Welding, wood, plumbing. electric, mechanics all the same, we need to focus the young fellas on "The cowboy way".Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Originally Posted by SmokinPRanchSo I guess my question is, has it always been this way or is it now that welding seems more popular and accessible? Al
Reply:I suppose a lot of it is that I see some on the boards that wasn't out there years ago. But it also seems that in my trade the qualifications for making grade have been lowered. And I don't believe it's the young guys fault. Too many fellas (and gals) at the top making decisions that have never earned their mettle. I'm all for higher education but just because a guy has some community college classes doesn't make him an A grade mechanic. But you tell him he can save the world and do anything just as good as the "old guys" who can blame them for getting themselves in the manure pile?Or maybe I'm just getting old and cantankerous. PapaLion..that cowboy up slogan comes to mind in a lot of different situations. When everything starts to go to hell in a hand basket thinking about it that way helps put thing in perspective.  AlA man is judged by what's between his legs...always ride a good horseMiller DialArc HFLincoln Classic 300DThermal Arc 181iPowermax 45Scotchman Ironworker(2) BridgeportsOkomota Surface GrinderAutoCAD 2010
Reply:"You can't fix stupid."I always try to remember that when dealing with people and it makes life much easier.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:It's simply more info at people's fingertips. And, there is a lot more options with regards to light weght welders, and that offers more options to hobbyists and folks who might like welding, but can't invest a ton of money into it and start a business.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:It's the internet!It's so easy to post here and ask a question and some of the members who have the knowledge will try to help them.  All good so far.  However people attempt to do critical welding jobs when they have neither the skill or knowledge to do so.My favourite example is trailers, newbie buys a cheap chinese mig, wants to build a trailer. (thats why he bought the mig in the first place, figures he'll save money over buying the trailer and have the welder as a bonus when he 's done).  Well a mig can lay down some nice "LOOKING" welds by even a beginner.  Proud newbie drives down the highway with his new trailer and it fails and people get hurt, that's what bothers me.When I started welding years ago, I had the good fortune to be working for a pipefitter/welder who got me started with good equipment and expert instruction.  Even so it took me a while before I was confident enough to weld a towing ring on the nose of a trailer.  Before that I made and repaired a lot of stuff that wasn't going to hurt anyone if my welding failed.So if you are new to welding please ask your questions here but build some mailboxes or garden gates or whatever, until you are profficient enough to attempt welding something critical.  I don't want to discourage anyone from welding but take it slowly until you are ready.All the tag lines in this thread so far have made me smile, thanks."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:I'm taking my first welding class, evenings at the local tech high school.  At the first class, the teachers spoke of what we would learn and what past students had done.  They mentioned some artists who took the class several times and were happily welding sculptures.  They also mentioned that these guys couldn't weld for s**t.   We students were puzzled at this.  Welders who can't weld???Now we're several weeks into the class.  All the other students are happily building things.  I'm the only one still off in the corner welding coupons and cutting them apart to examine the welds.  At one point, the instructor looked at me funny, and he said, "You really want to learn to weld, don't you?"  So he taught me how to bevel the joint & make multiple passes so I could achieve full penetration on 1/4" plate using the 115V Hobart MIGs they use in the class.I finally got one right at our last class.  Full penetration, no defects.  The bead wasn't pretty, but the weld was structurally sound.  I spent the rest of the class trying to do it again, without success.   I was *so* frustrated.  I'd make a nice pass, with that nice smooth hissing sound.  I'd turn the piece over to do the other side, and get a popping, spitting mess that sounded like rife fire and welded my wire to the bead every few inches.  This is with no changes to my settings.  I was so frustrated I was ready to throw things.  Thinking about it later, I think perhaps I was having ground issues.  Sometimes, the popping spitting mess also welded itself to the table.  Next time, I'm going to try clamping my work to the table and see if that helps.The teachers know how to weld.  They have resigned themselves to the fact that most of their students don't care to learn how to make sound structural welds.  When I worked as a carpenter, we called this "hollywood".  If you were nailing something to a wall, and missed the stud, that was a "hollywood" nail.  Anchored only in drywall, it offered no structural strength, but it looked fine.  With MIG, it's easy to learn to make "hollywood" welds, with cold joints and/or inadequate penetration.  For some applications, this is OK.  I want to be able to use welding in auto maintenance and restoration, so I want structurally sound welds.  In my class, I'm the only one.The school and teachers provide the educational product that the students/customers want.  Based on experience, they've come to expect students do not care to learn to weld well.  It is a lot harder.  At least for newbies like me, unless you spend a lot of time cutting apart your welds, you don't really know how well you're welding.  FWIW,coachjpg
Reply:Originally Posted by noriteIt's the internet!..My favourite example is trailers, newbie buys a cheap chinese mig, wants to build a trailer. (thats why he bought the mig in the first place, figures he'll save money over buying the trailer and have the welder as a bonus when he 's done).  Well a mig can lay down some nice "LOOKING" welds by even a beginner.  Proud newbie drives down the highway with his new trailer and it fails and people get hurt, that's what bothers me...
Reply:I personally think the wide variety and prices of 110v flux and mig welders has a lot of people buying them thinking they can build anything w/ them. I think a mig weld can be most deceiving in that the appearance can look totally professional and be so weak .  I just hope these folks realize what they have and the limitations of it. A 110v volt welder can make some good, strong welds, but the weldor has to know how to do it.                           JMHO,                                        MikeOl' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:I see it a lot and the ones that start doing it for money on the side are the ones that tick me off the most. Besides not really knowing how to weld they will build or repair things that they should not be working on at all. I think about a dozen have started up around here in the last few years and all are out of business.One fella opened up a welding business in one of those metal building strip centers for businesses. He had a little mig machine and a little plasma and that was it, not even a table. He worked on the floor.  Here is an axle for a big shredder that he "fixed". That's what the man who had me repair it said, "I just had it fixed and it's already broke, why did it break again?" I explained to him that it wasn't fixed. When I told him how much it would cost he told me that was 3 times what he payed to get it fixed the first time. I practically screamed at him that it wasn't "fixed" the first time. The last picture is "fixed". Attached Images
Reply:Looks like he "chased" that crack for quite awhile and still didn't catch it.                                                 MikeOl' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:My grandpa used to call that stacking chicken $hit  Last edited by killdozerd11; 11-14-2010 at 09:51 PM.Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by Donoharmtrailers... it's nothing, there's a  guy on the projects" subforum  with a super seven frame, that's like a gokart that goes on the road and they are fast... puting yourself in a fast car you welded with 0 experience and an 110v mig welder?and this guy is learning to mig right on the frame he's gonna drive...
Reply:tried to find it yesterday, it's between page 60 and 120 in "projects", pretty old, 2008 i think.He wasn't repairing an old one, just building a new one with a rectangular tube design.I wanted to build/buy a super7 for a long time, bad thing is I can't fit in one.--------------------------------------------------------------www.becmotors.nlyup, I quit welding.. joined welder anonymous
Reply:Originally Posted by Donoharmtried to find it yesterday, it's between page 60 and 120 in "projects", pretty old, 2008 i think.
Reply:Originally Posted by mla2ofusI personally think the wide variety and prices of 110v flux and mig welders has a lot of people buying them thinking they can build anything w/ them. I think a mig weld can be most deceiving in that the appearance can look totally professional and be so weak .  I just hope these folks realize what they have and the limitations of it. A 110v volt welder can make some good, strong welds, but the weldor has to know how to do it.                           JMHO,                                        Mike
Reply:To the post right above me:I was once one of those foolish guys who said, "Hey Ill weld that 1/4" beam with my Lil 110v..."Slowly I learned the limitations of both myself and the machine. Albeit the hard way, I learned none-the-less...Im now certified ASME 6010 root and 7018 fill & cap... I understand I still have limitations, Im NOT gonna weld on a skyscraper. Ive come to prefer Stick for as much as possible and any voltage MIG I use for non-structual projects. MIG welds can look sexy, and fail... Im not schooled in MIG, so I shy away from it for that reason. I was not shown/told how to run a bucket loader, so I dont drive one, mentality.... I can only hope that others starting out soon realize, as I did, that the more you know, the more you realize that you dont know ****....MaxLincoln Power MIG 210 MP ( boat anchor )Lincoln Weld-Pac 100 HDHobart IronMan 230Cutmaster 42Jackson NexGenSumner Ultra ClampsDWM120
Reply:Originally Posted by MadMax31To the post right above me:I was once one of those foolish guys who said, "Hey Ill weld that 1/4" beam with my Lil 110v..."Slowly I learned the limitations of both myself and the machine. Albeit the hard way, I learned none-the-less...Im now certified ASME 6010 root and 7018 fill & cap... I understand I still have limitations, Im NOT gonna weld on a skyscraper. Ive come to prefer Stick for as much as possible and any voltage MIG I use for non-structual projects. MIG welds can look sexy, and fail... Im not schooled in MIG, so I shy away from it for that reason. I was not shown/told how to run a bucket loader, so I dont drive one, mentality.... I can only hope that others starting out soon realize, as I did, that the more you know, the more you realize that you dont know ****....Max