You can't weld a spring

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Here ya go.  The STRATE WELDING SUPPLY sent this customer to me.  He had a spring off a weight machine.  I told him springs can't be welded.  But I would do it anyhow.  I tacked it in place, veeed out the rest and tigged it with 680.  I didn't know how to cool it, so I sprayed water on it.  It took a minute or two.  The guy asked me how much?  I told him nothing, just tell me if it holds or not.  I have not heard from him..........David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Back in the '70S I welded 2 coil springs from the front of a car together with (I think) 6011 for a "boingy" mailbox post..It still stands about 2 miles from me as I type..I can get a pic tomorrow if ya want.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Zap, a mailbox spring is a spring that doesn't move much if at all.  David, quenching that spring in water was probably the best thing; the only thing I can think to do on top of that would be to try and temper it.  But knowing nothing about the spring steel, any tempering you might try is likely to do just as much harm as good.I did a fair amount of work for a major automotive company, examining broken valve springs.  If your customer returns, you could tell him that looks like a typical fatigue failure.  Those are often started at small(microscopic) surface scratches that result from either mis-handling of the spring, or a defect on the drawing die that's used to coil the spring. Originally Posted by zapsterBack in the '70S I welded 2 coil springs from the front of a car together with (I think) 6011 for a "boingy" mailbox post..It still stands about 2 miles from me as I type..I can get a pic tomorrow if ya want.....zap!
Reply:Follow up...I took a second look at the photos and I think I can see the scratch that intiated the failure.  Looks like there's a line along the top of the spring wire.  It could be dirt, but it could also be a die scratch.  It lines up real nice with the notch at one end of the fracture surface...that's my $0.02.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:I've done some reading up on welding and making springs because we were having problems with our butt welders at work constantly breaking springs. These are special u-shaped springs, not normal coil springs. There is a whole process you need to go through. It got too involved for me, so I just tried welding them to repair them. Part of the problem was just the design of the springs. I just built up some material where they would break and it seems to be working fine. I think you need to heat them up and quench them in oil, not water. And you cant have any scratches or nicks in the material. You need to polish any imperfections before heating. That's about all that I remember.Last edited by Carl26; 04-16-2008 at 07:15 PM.Lincoln AC/DC 225/125 Stick Linde HDA-300 MillerMatic DVI MIG Miller Dynasty 200DX Hypertherm Powermax 1000
Reply:Originally Posted by David RHere ya go.  The STRATE WELDING SUPPLY sent this customer to me.  He had a spring off a weight machine.  I told him springs can't be welded.  But I would do it anyhow.  I tacked it in place, veeed out the rest and tigged it with 680.  I didn't know how to cool it, so I sprayed water on it.  It took a minute or two.  The guy asked me how much?  I told him nothing, just tell me if it holds or not.  I have not heard from him..........
Reply:Originally Posted by A_DAB_will_doZap, a mailbox spring is a spring that doesn't move much if at all.
Reply:if its over 300 degrees i wouldnt have quenched it because it can make it brittle. Like all bend tests you dont quench over 300 because of the carbon issue.  but it should be fine doesnt look like anything criticle6G zirconium 702 GTAW 2" xxheavy6G P.E.D. carbon steel GTAW 2" xxheavy3G titanium Gr. 2 - Gr. 7 GTAW up to 3/4" 3G 316L stainless GTAW up to 1" 3G carbon steel GTAW up to 1" 3G Hastalloy GTAW up to 3/4"1G tantalum GTAW up to .060"
Reply:Dave, that is a pretty decent fix for him. I bet it will last a while for him.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Originally Posted by welder155if its over 300 degrees i wouldnt have quenched it because it can make it brittle. Like all bend tests you dont quench over 300 because of the carbon issue.  but it should be fine doesnt look like anything criticle
Reply:ok not trying to start any arguments but im only 17.  havent taken any metallurgy classes just two years of welding class which isnt even much bok work its just practice. ok so sorry i dont know the micro structure of every type of material.  so why do you have to be the guy who has to know it all why dont you e elaborate more on the micro structure instead of saying im misleading??  remember its a forum not a science class.  so explain more please im intereted in learning.and if im so misleading would any harm have been done if not quenched and air cooled?6G zirconium 702 GTAW 2" xxheavy6G P.E.D. carbon steel GTAW 2" xxheavy3G titanium Gr. 2 - Gr. 7 GTAW up to 3/4" 3G 316L stainless GTAW up to 1" 3G carbon steel GTAW up to 1" 3G Hastalloy GTAW up to 3/4"1G tantalum GTAW up to .060"
Reply:After I did the job, I went to the LWS that sent me the job.  He recommended Allstate which is the same as utetic 680.  I had some 680 tig wire.  We looked up it and the weld itself is not heat treatable or cannot be hardened any more.  I didn't quench it  I let it cool till it stopped glowing and sprayed arasol (spell checker broke)  glass cleaner on it to cool it slowly.  I hope the guy comes by with something else broken.  I sure am no metularogist. DavidLast edited by David R; 04-17-2008 at 06:57 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by welder155would any harm have been done if not quenched and air cooled?
Reply:Originally Posted by welder155ok not trying to start any arguments but im only 17.  havent taken any metallurgy classes just two years of welding class which isnt even much bok work its just practice. ok so sorry i dont know the micro structure of every type of material.  so why do you have to be the guy who has to know it all why dont you e elaborate more on the micro structure instead of saying im misleading??  remember its a forum not a science class.  so explain more please im intereted in learning.and if im so misleading would any harm have been done if not quenched and air cooled?
Reply:Steel springs are often made of high carbon steel alloys; 0.06-0.08wt% carbon.  They are normally quenched and tempered to make the spring tough and resistant to permanent changes in shape.  In this case, my guess is that welding anneals the steel, making it more likely to bend and stay bent if the spring is stretched beyond some point.  First off, a welded spring may crack during cooling because of the high carbon content.  Quenching increases the chances of this happening.  Preheating and/or slow cooling reduces the chance of cracking, but ensures the weld and much of the surrounding HAZ are fully annealed.If it survives cooling/quenching, then at least it won't fail by bending permanently within it's intended range of motion(extension or compression).  Failing to temper the spring may shorten it's lifetime by virtue of the fact that the weld is now too brittle, compaired to the rest of the spring.   All that depends on the filler, heat input, etc. Time will tell...but hopefully that spring isn't carrying any part of the moving load on the weight machine it came from.  Either way, welding that spring was a nice piece of craftsmanship, David.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Utetic 680 is not heat treatable.  They recomend it for springs.  My dad stick welded the main leaf on the fro my 53 willys truck with 680.  It never broke.  We did post heat it.  Things like this make my job fun.David
Reply:One thing that is different is the spring rate now.  not like it really matters in this case but say you were to weld some coils for a suspension.  when you welded the spring back together the spring rate will be different.  Springs are a leverage base operative.  the more length you have in the coil (total metal linear wise) the more leverage you would have to compress that spring but at the same time there is more resistance to compress.  there are different variables to take into consideration here that dont really matter one way or the other.There did I thoroughly confuse anyone??? I just wanted to see if I could ramble on in a complete circle.  But NIce job BTW.
Reply:Originally Posted by mr2turbo7One thing that is different is the spring rate now.  not like it really matters in this case but say you were to weld some coils for a suspension.  when you welded the spring back together the spring rate will be different.  Springs are a leverage base operative.  the more length you have in the coil (total metal linear wise) the more leverage you would have to compress that spring but at the same time there is more resistance to compress.  there are different variables to take into consideration here that dont really matter one way or the other.There did I thoroughly confuse anyone??? I just wanted to see if I could ramble on in a complete circle.  But NIce job BTW.
Reply:I expect part of the spring next to the weld to go plastic.  I don't think it will break.  If it holds, it will look a little funny after being used and one coil will be out of place.The part is only under tension you can see that by looking at the spring.  It broke from when it was new.  It could break again.  It DID break right in the center where it has the most coils pulling on each side.  Just a fun job to bring up some discussion.  I had NO idea what kind of metal I was dealing with.  I just did it.  David
Reply:Springs that come in pairs, like garage door openers, and I imagine weight lifting machines, should just be replaced in pairs from the same vendor and same stock. Otherwise you just start this endless cycle of replacing 'one' spring. Not talking big beefy automobile compression springs here, just those that see extreme and frequent stretch cycling. Not to say you shouldn't weld one if the customer wants it welded. Of course I'd sure think about a garage door spring. Those things are like a stick of dynamite when the come unglued.Last edited by Sandy; 04-18-2008 at 10:22 PM.
Reply:To avoid any headaches down the road I usually give them a price that makes a new spring look cheap, lol.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.