When to say NO

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A guy that has a garage of some kind from down the street from mine came in and asked me to weld this.  I said OK.  I was tig welding something at the time, so I threw it in the vice and made the two pieces one.  He said it was for a harley and it was his own design.  I figured it was for shift linkage.  A few weeks later he came back and told me my weld broke.  I don't take that lightly, so I looked at it and asked what it was for.  He said the brake caliper went around the wheel when it broke and wanted me to weld it again.  I said NO and I will even give him his five bucks back.  He was pissed. ..  ..  So was I.  If I had knew what it was for, I would have never done it. His design obviously sucked.Some people....David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:This was your own fault, David.  First, no reason why this couldn't have been welded, stronger than the rest of the assembly.Second, no reason you shouldn't have inquired, before doing the original job, what the purpose or application was, and, if necessary, gone with him to actually look at the application.Myself, if the risk or liability is greater than the potential reward TO ME ($$$$), simple enough, just go buy the part, it ain't worth messing with.   Another very good example, of why welders should have a working knowledge of what they are welding on.   A very similar example came up a few months ago, where somebody was fabbing new boat exhaust manifolds, without the slightest clue as to the potential problems or liabilities involved ........I, for one, have never been one to "Weld here" when told,,,,,,,   you can just go on to the monkey down the street for that .....
Reply:Originally Posted by David R...give him his five bucks back. ...
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702As soon as you took money for the job, you could have been sued for the failure whether you knew what it was for or not.  Obviously there are more legal variables than that, but something to think about...
Reply:DavidI would agree with Mark upto certain extent. After you have a knowledge that you, as a porfessional welder, participating in actual prototype building, especially designed by not necessarely qualified person - you are taking a liability... Not because you are good or bad welder, but because you are running a business as a professional....Why "upto certain extent" - well, I feel that you still can do it as long as you have the guy to sign a disclaimer agreement...
Reply:David, It looks like it broke around the HAZ, I am assuming the rod was butted against the collar piece. Or did the weld indeed break? Aside from what others have posted, they say hind sight is always 20/20.What was this piece doing anyway?Tim Beeker.
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702As soon as you took money for the job, you could have been sued for the failure whether you knew what it was for or not.  Obviously there are more legal variables than that, but something to think about...
Reply:Dave could never have any clue about the forces involved. Indeed the design sucked, and that's the designer's fault, not dave's; for he's a welder and shouldn't be bothered with calculations, assumptions, forces etc.Even if the weld broke, due to not being big enough, or due to welding imperfections, the designer would be responsible for designing the wrong weld strength or not prescribing some weld testing.At least in Europe that is.I fixed my own brake bracket for my suzuki in Aluminium with a lot of welding around the hinge. I feared it might crack so I did some calculations and tested it on the street, seriously abusing the back brake, which will never happen in real live. Nothing happened so it's ok.With the heavy harleys it's a bit different. More weight, so there's more braking torque then them jap machines. Welding and design should be accordingly.
Reply:Originally Posted by tnjindDavid, It looks like it broke around the HAZ, I am assuming the rod was butted against the collar piece. Or did the weld indeed break? Aside from what others have posted, they say hind sight is always 20/20.What was this piece doing anyway?
Reply:Originally Posted by ElGuapoDave could never have any clue about the forces involved. Indeed the design sucked, and that's the designer's fault, not dave's; for he's a welder and shouldn't be bothered with calculations, assumptions, forces etc.Even if the weld broke, due to not being big enough, or due to welding imperfections, the designer would be responsible for designing the wrong weld strength or not prescribing some weld testing.At least in Europe that is....
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702Snip...And it is very unlikely that the part was simple mild steel, which means that if he was fixing it as a qualified welder, then he would have needed to know exactly what heat treatment to put the part under to restore full factory strength of the joint.  ...Snip....It's good this got posted.  Dave for sure will be a lot more careful about what he welds for other people, and now others who read this thread will be, too.
Reply:it  would be nice if work ws drawn up with proper welding symbology(most engineers dont even do that) and then the welders liability would be limited to the weld itself and not the design
Reply:I notice every day that more engineering is done by the craftsmen, and drawings are more and more revised 'as built' by the corrections in the field. Things are changing over here, there's a lack of engineers over here (i mean real engineers, not the copy-paste generation). Originally Posted by MAC702You guys can smoke dope and your women can walk around topless.
Reply:Well David, I think every one who posted is right in one way or another. Fact is, even if the design was perfect and some how it broke, in this country there is going to be a fair chance you'll end up in court if someone gets hurt. Doesnt matter if it was installation problem or it broke 6" up from the weld, you stand a pretty good chance to loose something out of it, if lucky only your time. I always question those walk in jobs just to be sure, but thats not saying I wont be in the same situation some day. I personally think anyone looking at you thinking you were stupid, needs a smack upside the head, this was a very easy small mistake that could have been hugh,but wasnt. Taking that short cut on the way to work could be a hugh mistake if it gets you hit by a dump truck, but we dont always evaluate things 100% before we do them. I am willing to bet that was a cash job,no paperwork needed. Anyone self employed weather you are the most honest person or not looks at 5 easy bucks and says sure, your doing a guy a favor, he just payed for your daily coffee fix and all should be good. You were already involved in a job at the time, probably focased on that and this guy walks in with a simple fix. Your human. 3o years ago guys had weld shops, did any and everything, never had to worry about all the crap, times have changed, guess we all need to be more careful as time goes on, a post like yours helps sober us all up.Dan.Repair Specialties LLC
Reply:If you are going to worry about being sued then lay down the stinger and get in bed and pull the covers over your head. If you have a shop and aren't carrying liability (also referred to as malpractice) or a umbrella policy then you are putting yourself out there as bait for the sharks (lawyers). There are also LLC or Inc. that will limit but I have been seeing the sharks naming employees as well as the actual companies in lawsuits so there isn't any protection for the average Joe> I know that even working in a shop you get handed a piece by the boss he says weld it you do it, did you know the end use for this piece or if the design was right? No you did as requested to the best of your ability and moved on to the next one. And now you are on the line and the courts have chummed the water by allowing these types of suits and actions to continue. So cover your a$$ as best you can don't let it keep you from doing your job or from taking on work.
Reply:As a casual observer, and with all due repsect for those that do this for a living, I can say that since I've been purusing these forums, it seems that there are less projects posted due to the propensity of the topic turning into a legal debate as opposed to a welding debate. I'm not saying that's wrong or right, but I have an interest in learning about welding. It's common sense here in America that you are legally liable for everything you do including breathing someone else's air.
Reply:what if the customer was made to sign a disclaimer about design? should help when the lawyers start to circle the boat..
Reply:Originally Posted by flatbustedbrokeIf you are going to worry about being sued then lay down the stinger and get in bed and pull the covers over your head. If you have a shop and aren't carrying liability (also referred to as malpractice) or a umbrella policy then you are putting yourself out there as bait for the sharks (lawyers). There are also LLC or Inc. that will limit but I have been seeing the sharks naming employees as well as the actual companies in lawsuits so there isn't any protection for the average Joe> I know that even working in a shop you get handed a piece by the boss he says weld it you do it, did you know the end use for this piece or if the design was right? No you did as requested to the best of your ability and moved on to the next one. And now you are on the line and the courts have chummed the water by allowing these types of suits and actions to continue. So cover your a$$ as best you can don't let it keep you from doing your job or from taking on work.
Reply:I agree with flatbustedbroke. David, if you would have posted that very same job on here but showing how successful it was everyone would be telling you good job but because it broke almost everyone is saying you shouldn't have welded it. Good thing we have welders in this country that are willing to do there job and weld stuff for people.Don't be afriad of welding something if you have the confidence to do the job. After all thats what makes us a creative society.Like flatbustedbroke said just protect yourself and earn your living doing what you do.
Reply:I could get sued for most anything I do.  I also run a garage and work on fleets of vans.  I just do the best I can and don't let things slide.  Yeah I have insurance.I didn't post the job when I did it because it wasn't that important.  Now it is..... I expected a little heat, but see my sig. DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbeadwhat if the customer was made to sign a disclaimer about design? should help when the lawyers start to circle the boat..
Reply:A 44 mag discretely displayed can nave the same effect.Trailblazer 302Hobart Stickmate AC/DCLincoln SP 135 TSmith torchSpoolmatic 30A
Reply:A lot of this should be in a separate thread as should a lot of the postings when questions are asked and the reply tend to be in the area of legal responsibility so I am suggesting to management that a new forum be started that would be for businesses or something along those lines. Sorry for hijacking your thread David. I would be glad to post somewhere like that from my 20 years of experience as a business owner. Again sorry for the hijack.
Reply:Disclaimer would be good. I had to sign them in the states riding a horse once and for a quad also. In the netherlands we have to sign a disclaimer when doing trackdays, so it's nothing unusual anymore.Won't keep the leeches of your back, they'll deny everything, but maybe it'll help a bit.
Reply:It's ashame that in today's world so much of what we do as a living is "liability based".I have a home inspection business and my liability is huge.  I am constantly having to "cover" myself with legalize bulls**t in my agreement and the written report.I can be sued for almost anything.  My solution is an INC. and no company assets to speak of.  Even E&O insurance is a target for a lawyer.  E&O = deep pockets.  My lawyer informed me NOT to carry E&O because most insurance companies will automatically settle any claim for the cost of your deductible (usually 2000-3000 grand) no questions asked without a fight!!! And most people with settle for 2-3 grand for no questions asked.  Problem is, I gotta pay the 2-3 grand!!!Just my .02 cents worth on this subject.TimDavid,It sucks how this forum has degraded. Sorry.Please continue posting pics. I enjoy seeing what other Blue Collar guys are doing. I have a family of 4 and I keep a roof and a table for them by busting my ***. I am sure you are doing the same.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain