High Alloy buildup broken bolt removal ideas

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I have seen bolts broken off below the working surface which had high alloy rod stacked up and then a nut placed around that stack and welded to it....and then the bolt is removed just as if it were original. Often these situations involved someone breaking off an ' easy out '  just to complicate the mess. I am interested in all forms and fashion of ideas ( specifics )... proven or not .... for dealing with this kind of problem.  Thanks, GregWeldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Unless the threads are galled, the high alloy welding rod works pretty much all of the time. Sometimes it takes two or three attempts if there si rust involved. 309L s/s is a lower cost alternative if the alloy rods aren't available. The key is to heat the bolt as much as possible without heating the surrounding metal so that it is upset. On larger studs, a tube can be inserted into the hole to prevent arcing to the threaded hole if it is in deep.
Reply:Thank you ...., is this 309L a flux coated rod made for stick welding .....and are there any tricks if the broken bolt is horizontal ?Would stick usually be preferred over TIG for this operation ?Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Yes, it is stainless steel stick rod, but other processes will work if ithe bolt is broken off close to the surface. What is your situation?  How you go about it depends on the size of bolt, how much bolt is left, how far down the hole that it is broken off, type of metal around the bolt, etc.
Reply:I am not currently in the predicament of having one broken off...but having dealt with old equipment/cars for 40 years on a farm and only recently discovering this forum.... and I am wanting to ' fill out ' my welding equipment ... you know... any excuse for more tools.... I am interested in all those factors you mention and the changes to the suggested procedures which would result from changes in the variables....Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:On horizontal holes, if you have room to insert a short tube, you can use it as a sleeve to protect the threads, and weld it to the stud, then weld a nut to the top of the tube. Quite often when a bolt has broken off because it was over tightened, it will turn out fairly easy because once the head is gone, the jambing pressure is relieved.If the hole is vertical, if you run your welding rod straight down the center of the hole, being careful not to arc the sides (especially with cast iron), you can buildup the stud until it is clear of the surface. The slag from the heavy flux will form around the sides of the hole and insulate it from the arc. When turning the stud out, work it back and forth and try to blow out the slag with compressed air as it crumbles I have fished out studs that were broken off more than 2" down the hole doing this.If there is a drill bit or easy out in the bolt, then the job becomes more difficult, and they have to be removed first.
Reply:I just had a bad episode with four studs broken off in a hub.At first I thought it would be an easy save but with two of the holes things got complicated fast. I broke off one drill bit and one extractor. For a minute I thought that my EZ-out license might be suspended.  Ended up going after the broken tools  with carbide. Once I had the studs "thinned" to almost nothing I used heat and a spline-type extractor for the turn out. Thought about welding but decided against it on this one.I must have not been in the picture taking mood during the carbide cutting because I don't have pics of that.Here's part of the arsenal:Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 04-23-2011 at 03:05 PM.
Reply:That is how my projects go... the more I do to them... the farther behind I am.... They just broke off because the nuts were on that tight ?Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Tig welding does a great job because of the foot pedal you can hang around for a while and let the heat build up.I have done dozens and not stumped yet 6/32 up to 3/4 and larger but it must be accessible for tig if not the other suggestions are valid as well.Vinnie
Reply:Originally Posted by GBM . . .They just broke off because the nuts were on that tight?
Reply:Ok... that makes more sense... a very unpleasant freak occurrence....I have heard of that many breaking when someone did not know something was left hand thread... and put an air impact wrench to it...why they did not quit after a couple in a row broke and investigate I do not know...Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Thanks Vinnie , ProFab listed 309L as a low cost alternative.... but I am wondering what you use ' if cost is no object '...   which fill rod do you use for TIG in these multi steel situations ?  And which Tungsten, gas, etc  ?Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Ive had good success in the past with the splined type extractor kit that Denrep shows in his post.. ( red box, probably Snap-On.. )..But their is alway more than one way to skin a cat.
Reply:LarryO,    So often those break off and create more of a problem.. hard to center drill, etc...  The tactics mentioned so far are great.... the more we know about others do... more arrows in the quill...Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Denrep That black thing at the bottom of the pict isn't a grenade by chance is it? Getting out the big toys "just in case"? .No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by GBMThanks Vinnie , ProFab listed 309L as a low cost alternative.... but I am wondering what you use ' if cost is no object '...   which fill rod do you use for TIG in these multi steel situations ?  And which Tungsten, gas, etc  ?
Reply:Thank you Vinnie,  Sounds like you have it down to a science !Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWDenrep That black thing at the bottom of the pict isn't a grenade by chance is it? Getting out the big toys "just in case"?
Reply:I thought I could read ' C-4 ' on the side... glad to know it was not....Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:The weld up and nut-out removal can be problematic--especially if it fails, then you've gotss or whatever beading--on top of the busted bolt, with threads possibly damaged by the welding;creating a worse situation.Center drilling the bolt--chamfering the broken face for a center, stepping up in sizeson the drilling, then chasing threads to restore the original threadain't that hard to do with a little patience. Reversing the drill and/or using left hand drills can help a un-thread a loose bolt.On the multiple drill passes, spline extractors can be tried.I use E-Z outs (quite infrequently), Mac and Snap On extractors.The pilot bushings with those kits help to create and hold center hole alignment--but normally I just eyeball how the hole's going.Any extractor will un thread a bolt that isn't tightly in the hole. If its tight-forget the extractors, unless one's hell-bent to break the extractor--whichis all too common an occurence....as Denrep owned up to.Is this time proved approach just too old fashioned for the Instant Gratification Generation?Below is partial sequence of chair caster stud removal from thin wall, steel rivnuts in the chair legs.http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1303709075http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1303709099http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1303709147http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1303709230 Attached ImagesBlackbird
Reply:Not a good job unless you have a drill press.  Also helps for the bolt to be broken off at right angle.Gordie -- "I believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Reply:when i get extractions that are broke crooked i like to use a ball burr in a die grinder to clean the face then center punch and drillWELD TO LIVE LIVE TO RIDEA bad welder blames his equipment, a good weldor can lay a perfect bead on any thing
Reply:Anyone ever use the loctite product that freezes the fastener to shrink it loose.  I have used liquid nitrogen on press fit bushings with awesome results.  Wonder if it works on thisMillermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonThe weld up and nut-out removal can be problematic--especially if it fails, then you've gotss or whatever beading--on top of the busted bolt, with threads possibly damaged by the welding;creating a worse situation.Center drilling the bolt--chamfering the broken face for a center, stepping up in sizeson the drilling, then chasing threads to restore the original threadain't that hard to do with a little patience. Reversing the drill and/or using left hand drills can help a un-thread a loose bolt.On the multiple drill passes, spline extractors can be tried.I use E-Z outs (quite infrequently), Mac and Snap On extractors.The pilot bushings with those kits help to create and hold center hole alignment--but normally I just eyeball how the hole's going.Any extractor will un thread a bolt that isn't tightly in the hole. If its tight-forget the extractors, unless one's hell-bent to break the extractor--whichis all too common an occurence....as Denrep owned up to.Is this time proved approach just too old fashioned for the Instant Gratification Generation?
Reply:LOL, Dave, I am not of the instant gratification generation....I am of the ' do it very carefully 'so as to not make things worse than they already  are' group ...  I usually use left hand drill bits graduating out as far as will leave me material in which to use a  Left hand ( bottoming) tap and then screw in a left hand bolt... this has the advantage over easy out extractors of not putting more force outwards on the broken off bolt threads..... and works almost every time... BUT this assumes some access parameters... which in dealing with old cars or machinery sometimes is just not there..  Also,  I have seen suggested taking drill rod and center drilling it ... like they make screw extractors for wood working...then cutting teeth on it  which will cut around the broken off extractor or easy out ...  Just using the left hand drills often works by itself once most of the inside of the bolt is removed.  Thanks for all the input so far... ' more hammers or bigger hammers' or both... it is always nice to have some ideas in the arsenal when machines give us fits...Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.Pro-Fab sez:    'Of course it can be problematic! If it was easy, everyone would be doing it al the time.80% of the times that I use this method, it is because the customer has already tried your "time proved approach" and broke the drill bit or extractor, or both off in the stud.If the hole is off center or drilled at an angle, then build up or using an insert are the remaining options. And if the stud is seized in the hole, we know what is going to happen to the EZ out. I am not slamming your approach. If it is done properly, it should work every time, provided that the stud is soft enough to be drilled out and the threads have not galled.Besides, I make a lot more money if the customer tries and fails, than if he brings it in first.'1-Let me clarify something--I normally don't even fiddle with extractors, just drill 'em out & chase 'em.Most of the time, the busted stuff i see won't budge with an extractor--it's either locked in, corroded or both.If I'm using extractors--I do not break them off in the hole....as others love to do.-I consider using heli-coil or solid thread inserts for the repair....it all depends on 'The Deal'.2-The ragged end is prepped with drill point, various carbide burrs--to create a center for the drill.If the drill goes 'off', a small carbide burr may go back in the hole to get back to center.3-Usually run 3 drill sizes up to at or close to minor dia. (tap drill size), using US made, industrial, M-42 drills that are sharp and lubed. Most folks have no clue as to how to drill accurately or efficiently on a drill press or hand held--that in itself is a large part of why this works for myself and won't for others.....very slow rpm, with lots of pressure to start and keep cutting a chip. Keep stopping, blow out hole and LOOK at what's happening. LOOK at the drill squareness to the work from 2 right angles, during the drill-outs.4-With care the hole can be kept pretty damn well centered, then chase with tap....then there's experts--- that really know how to break taps in holes, as well as extractors!Sure a drill press is great to use (if it's verified to actually be square to the thread axis, etc.) and one's able to fixture the work properly.Since most thread depths are well beyond 3 pitches--even if the minor dia. is enlarged by the drilling,there's still plenty of thread engagement for a strong connection.5-I've done this over 200 times in 20 + years on:-soft, grade 5, grade 8 and SS bolts-corroded and locked into steel, cast iron, cast steel, aluminumin big truck radiator tanks, exhaust manifolds, alum. and CI heads, etc.Blackbird