TIG machine setup right, now look at the results..

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Hey guys so yeah the reason I was blowing through all my metal was because the TIG machine had the retainer for the tungsten in backwards which cut off the gas to the tip of the torch.  I flipped it around and she flows so much better!Ok these are horrible welds.  I am trying though.  The unit seems strong and is not even welded completed around yet.  At the flange, I had some issues where I was using the same heat to try and fuse to the flange (1/2") as fuse to the SS pipe (18-gauge) so I had a lot of burn through.  I then started filling it with filler rod to take up the holes.  I am not done smoothing it over obviously but yeah.The joint weld is a pain - I dunno how I am going to take up that joint gap.  I am trying to cut a wedge of pipe but all I have is a band saw and it's sorta tricky.Here are pics so far.Still not sure how to get that "stack of dimes" look, but away we go.
Reply:you've "stumbled" on it my friend the first pic looks ok..maybe a little more gas..use a slightly smaller cup for better gas concentration...the 2'nd pic..  thats way too big of a gap to fill  WAY TO GO  practice make perfect...you'll get there post the good with the bad and tell us the settings.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Thanks Zap - I am using a #7 cup, we only have as small as a #6, should we use that?  Even smaller?
Reply:i dont know the #'s of the cups...i'd use one the size of your pinkey rather than your thumb......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:doing better just practice practice ,are you wiping it down with accetone. you might also take  a little sand paper and knock off the rough edges. thin points or cutting burrs. but your getting there  GOOD LUCK
Reply:Try a number 5 cup, I think that's about the size of a pinky, depending whose hand it is LOL.
Reply:Mistakes are the best way to learn...as long as they aren't fatal, that is.  Knowledge is just like money...easy come, easy go.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:Smithboy ; i sure wish i had your karma. $ goes easy, knowledge & $ never came easy to me . keep it up, maybe some will rub off on the rest of us .[SIZE="5"Yardbird"
Reply:Well, I'm halfway there ... I have the "easy go" down to a tee!My angle grinder is my best friend!
Reply:if you don't have pipefitters tools try this  to get your gap on the pipe.get 2 pieces of filler rod about 3-4" long. lay your rod across the pipe and set the other piece of pipe on top. check for squarenss using a straight edge and tack the 4 sides. then you can just turn and burn with nice even gaps. we use 1/4 welds on pipe. weld the first 1/4 of the pipe. rotate 180 degrees and weld again. rotate to the end of the first weld then finish the last 1/4.remember to tape the ends of the pipe and purge, but as you start closing the weld, blowout will become a problem, just poke some holes in the tape on the opposite end of where your gas is coming in. this will work for the flange too.Last edited by backuproller; 07-23-2006 at 12:11 AM."Retreat hell, were just fighting in the other direction"Miller Trailblazer 302, Extreme 12 VS, Dimension 400, Spectrum 375, HF 251D-1, Milermatic 251 w/ spoolgun  Hypertherm 1000Lincoln sp 1702000 F-450 to haul it
Reply:Tape the pipe up?  Why do we do this?How do I get the stack of dimes look?
Reply:The tape is to keep the purge gas inside the pipe.  You need to keep air away from the backside of the weld.  As for the stack of dimes look, it's related to the weave pattern you use.My angle grinder is my best friend!
Reply:Originally Posted by Jon KTape the pipe up?  Why do we do this?How do I get the stack of dimes look?
Reply:Originally Posted by Roy HodgesSmithboy ; i sure wish i had your karma. $ goes easy, knowledge & $ never came easy to me . keep it up, maybe some will rub off on the rest of us .
Reply:All that you said =  SO  TRUE . ALL of it. i was half serious , half joking . I think the trouble here is ........human nature . They all want EXPERT welds today , not tomorrow. I can't blame them., but.........it just takes time , sometimes a LOT of time. and we don't want to hear that -but  that's life .[SIZE="5"Yardbird"
Reply:Jon,first, as you probably already know, it is easier to make this weld when the material is clean, cut square, without burrs or chamfers, the two pieces are butted up tight with no gap, and the joint is tack welded in a few places.  Spend the time to get good joint fitup.  Probably a lot of welders on this site could make a beautiful weld on your joint, cause they have alot of experience and know some techniques, but us mortals need uniform joint fitup. Here's a couple of ideas for you.First master making a good clean tack weld without adding any filler metal, then master a tack weld with added filler.How about practicing without the weld joint first?  You could scribe a line around the tubing and first try welding around this, you can't get any better joint fitup than this.Make one good tack weld, and when you master this, make another that overlaps the first, then keep going with tack welds till you git er done.This may sound stupid and tedious, but as you have found, it is very difficult to hold the torch steady and travel around this pipe.Maybe this is a good starting place.Why not rest the shield cup on the pipe to help maintain a constant tungsten to work distance?  Heard of walking the cup?  Set the tungsten stickout to a short enough length that allows you to rest the cup on the pipe with the torch angled a bit, maybe 70 degrees.  A tungsten to work distance of 1/16" is OK, if you are approaching 1/8" you're getting too far away.  Closer is better, giving you a more concentrated controllable arc, of course the problem is dipping the tungsten or hitting the tungsten with the filler wire.  Once the tungsten is contaminated, stop and regrind, or replace it with a clean ground one.Position the torch over the joint, resting the cup on the pipe, the tungsten aimed evenly at the mating edges of the joint, start the arc, get some melting of each edge, add a dip of filler wire into the puddle (don't melt it off in the arc and drip it into the puddle), taper off the current to prevent forming a crater and crater crack.Check your Argon gas flow, you don't need a huge flow, more is not better, it causes turbulence that draws in air, try 15 cubic feet per hour (cfh) or less.Do you know that an automated tube welding system can make thousands of identical "perfect" welds per day on tubing like yours with or without filler metal.  This can be done because the joints are clean, square, tight butted, and clamped.  The tungsten is clean, precisely ground, and consistently positioned with respect to the joint.  The travel speed of the tungsten around the joint is precise and fixed, as is the welding current.  In other words, the machine weld is under control, and the welds show it.Hope this gives you some ideas for improving your consistency, I'm interested to hear back on how your doing.
Reply:Thanks so much pulser - the thing is my machine doesn't have a temperature pedal so that makes it a little harder.  One other issue I have is I am not sure how fast to be moving.  When weaving the torch I am not sure what rate to go at... I wish I could find a video showing or something.I am cutting that joint out and doing a mandrel bent piece instead of the hard 15 degree up bend, so I will have a flush butted jointed that I will clean and this time I will try taping the ends of the pipe up to keep the argon inside.  Buying acetone wednesday to keep this stuff clean as possible.  I will keep you updated.  Is the messy flange weld up there useable or should I scrap the $35 flange and try again?
Reply:Try this site.  Gerald has some info that will probably help you a bunch.http://www.weldinginspectionsvcs.com/ Look at the tig stuff.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:Not sure I found "the tig stuff" exactly.  Direct link?He mentions a Dragster 80 TIG welder thats like $150, thats actually interesting where do you get that.
Reply:Looking at the discoloration, I'd say go to a #8 cup with a gas lens, get you better shield gas coverage on the weld and avoid the salt mine look.  Also, some of your welds have a good deal of cold shutting on them.  Try reducing your heat and going with a smaller diameter filler metal.I r 2 a perfessional
Reply:I feel your pain man! I've been having some of the same troubles welding 22gauge 304, for my newest pulsejet engine. My welder will only turn down to 25amps. I can weld it OK as long as the seam is clamped to a chill bar, and ther fit is perfect with no gap. There are just places on the engine I need to weld, but can't get a chill bar. It's really aggravating to spend a couple of hours rolling cones, and making everything fit perfectly only to blow holes in it.
Reply:Here is a link that may be of help. http://www.weldinginspectionsvcs.com...gTheCupVid.htm The $150.00 machine you can get that will tig is the little 80 amp inverter from Harbor Freight. I have used it and the Thermal ARc Dragster 80 with an air cooled "Southweld" brand tig rig. Works FINE.GeraldHave a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by Joe HI feel your pain man! I've been having some of the same troubles welding 22gauge 304, for my newest pulsejet engine. My welder will only turn down to 25amps. I can weld it OK as long as the seam is clamped to a chill bar, and ther fit is perfect with no gap. There are just places on the engine I need to weld, but can't get a chill bar. It's really aggravating to spend a couple of hours rolling cones, and making everything fit perfectly only to blow holes in it.
Reply:Jon K,regarding welding speed, manual welders probably don't think about it much, they just know how fast is comfortable for them.  I do mechanized welding and therefore need to set the travel speed on the machine.  Generally, TIG welding speeds will be around 6 inches per minute (ipm).  Thicker base material, larger weld groove, higher wire feed rates, and high thermal conductive materials such as copper or aluminum will generally require slower speeds.  Thin material, and low thermal conductive material like stainless steel generally require higher speeds.  Try timing yourself as you move your hand along a ruler, how fast are you going?Speed is balanced with weld current.  Slower speed, less current, and faster speed, more current.  If you were a machine, I would set your speed somewhere between 3 and 6 ipm, and then set your current to produce the amount of weld size (width and depth) I need.You mention not knowing what speed to weave, well, do you need to be weaving?  With a tight fitting joint on tubing like you are welding, you should be able to travel in a straight line right down the middle of the joint.  With your tube to flange weld, you may find it beneficial to weave, pausing longer on the thicker flange material to get it to melt without melting away the thinner tube.Thank you for sharing photos of you welds, I don't want to discourage anyone from sharing by telling them their welds look like cr@p, so please don't be insulted, but are you having difficulty seeing the weld puddle through your hood?  Maybe you are not getting a clear view of the pool, cause if you could see that the filler metal is simply balled up on the surface, you could pause your travel and melt it in.  If you're not using some high $ automatic lens, look into a good quality gold or silver coated #9 shade glass lens, and maybe a magnifier cheater lens or reading glasses. Keep a tight arc.  Dip the filler into the pool.  Let's see some more photos.
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloPlease tell me this kind of motor will be well tested before you ride in the plane it powers....  'cause that's me waving as you plummet in on re-entry!!! Very cool that you get to work on jet engines for anything!!!Originally Posted by pulserJon K,regarding welding speed, manual welders probably don't think about it much, they just know how fast is comfortable for them.  I do mechanized welding and therefore need to set the travel speed on the machine.  Generally, TIG welding speeds will be around 6 inches per minute (ipm).  Thicker base material, larger weld groove, higher wire feed rates, and high thermal conductive materials such as copper or aluminum will generally require slower speeds.  Thin material, and low thermal conductive material like stainless steel generally require higher speeds.  Try timing yourself as you move your hand along a ruler, how fast are you going?Speed is balanced with weld current.  Slower speed, less current, and faster speed, more current.  If you were a machine, I would set your speed somewhere between 3 and 6 ipm, and then set your current to produce the amount of weld size (width and depth) I need.You mention not knowing what speed to weave, well, do you need to be weaving?  With a tight fitting joint on tubing like you are welding, you should be able to travel in a straight line right down the middle of the joint.  With your tube to flange weld, you may find it beneficial to weave, pausing longer on the thicker flange material to get it to melt without melting away the thinner tube.Thank you for sharing photos of you welds, I don't want to discourage anyone from sharing by telling them their welds look like cr@p, so please don't be insulted, but are you having difficulty seeing the weld puddle through your hood?  Maybe you are not getting a clear view of the pool, cause if you could see that the filler metal is simply balled up on the surface, you could pause your travel and melt it in.  If you're not using some high $ automatic lens, look into a good quality gold or silver coated #9 shade glass lens, and maybe a magnifier cheater lens or reading glasses. Keep a tight arc.  Dip the filler into the pool.  Let's see some more photos.
Reply:With SS on a bow rail, or some other boat part, I rather see a weld that looks like a very clean caulking job in a corner. Nice and smooth, good flow. That makes me happier than a stack of dimes. I have to polish it all smooth, so I want to start smooth!!!
Reply:Jon K,My 2 cents is:Practice without weave and without filler on a tube without a joint.  Adjust current to match your travel speed, so you don't blow through and you get small penetration on the inside.Once you dial that in, try adding filler at consistently timed dips.Then practice on a really clean tight fitting square butt joint with and without filler.  You may have to drop the current a couple of amps because the joint is more prone to blowing through. If the tube ends are square, no burr, no chamfer, and the joint is tack welded tightly closed with no gaps, it is possible to do this weld autogenously (without filler), it's done all the time with tube weld heads on pharmaceutical/sanitary tubing, see Arc Machines website for instance  www.arcmachines.comThe flange fillet weld is the same deal, you will do best with really good joint fitup.  You should try this without weaving, point more heat toward the flange, and add filler as you go.  You can even counter bore the flange to accept the end of the tube and then fillet weld around the joint.  Or, an easier and totally acceptable joint is to slide the tube all the way through the hole in the flange, so that the end of the tube is flush or maybe protruding 1/16" max. from the flange, and make this edge weld rather than the other fillet weld.If that tube is 300 series stainless steel and the flange is carbon steel, it's best to use 309 filler to prevent a hardenable weld chemistry and avoid brittleness and cracking.Best of luck.
Reply:The stack of dimes does not come from any sort of weave. When I first tigged, I thought it was in the way you weaved the torch. The stack of dimes looks just comes natural with the correct movement of the torch. - Start your weld puddle until you get a nice shiny liquid state, move your torch slowly along the seam and contain your puddle size and heat. When it is time to add filler, back up your torch along the seam (very small increment), dip your rod in the still molten pool, move your torch back forward over the pool. Repeat as necessary.  - This seems tricky at first, but once you get this down, it become second nature. Just remember, when dipping your filler in the pool, make sure you don't back your torch up too much. You still want to keep the pool and the filler in the gas zone. and remember.......the arc should not melt the filler, the puddle should!! just think of it as move forward, back up, dip filler in puddle, move forward, backup, dip filler in puddle. The dimes look will come once you start understanding the puddle. My very first time I practiced on a piece of tubing, It ended up looking like it had been in a pigeon cage for 10 years. haha - Then one day, I was just like - Hell yeah! - I think I am starting to get it! - I had my first stack of dimes look! - now that I look back, that first 'dimes' look was more like a nickel here, quarter there, penny, dime, dime, nickel, etc..... haha - Once you get your speed, steady hand, and foot control down, you will learn how to control the size of the bead.Keep chuggin away and asking questions in this forum. That is how I learned (still very much a rookie!)Last edited by kshellrazor; 07-26-2006 at 04:35 PM.