Need advice Oxy/Acet? Mig? Propane?

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I am an art teacher looking to possibly incorporate welding into my curriculum (but mostly for my own sculptures/projects) and was wondering what would be the most economical (refilling tanks vs buying spools of wire) and best overall fit for what I want to do. Took a welding class in art school bout 10 yrs ago and we used oxy acetylene, which I enjoyed working with but didn't have to mess with refilling tanks and had no idea how often they would last between refills.  I'd like to create scrap metal sculptures (as big as physically possible...go big or go home right???) much like the images below.http://www.ohiobarns.com/othersites/...rapmpark0.htmlVery little cutting would be involved, most time would be spent welding the pieces together. Ideally I'd like to work on em 10-16 hrs a week but probably be less than that. I'm open to any suggestions regarding models, sizes, brands, etcAny help be greatly appreciated...thanks
Reply:Hi Guuby i would use a MMA stick set just rods to buy and simple to use
Reply:Welcome to WWA Mig machine or a Stick machine would work.O/A isn't suited for welding Thick, cutting yes but no so much for welding.Most economical will be a basic Buzzboz like a Lincoln AC/DCNo gas to worry about just electrodes and the process tolerates rusty material but Not that easy on thinner sheet metal but you can add a Mig machine down the line. I see lots of tools in your future anyway if yer gonna walk down this welding road Hobart also has a similar machineYou can also look on CL and find pretty good deals on these stick machines.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:For this kind of work, I would choose a good stick (SMAW) welder myself. I remember seeing an article in Practicle Welding Magazine a few years back. I think the artist made a dinosaur from heavy equipment scrap parts. I think he use both wire and stick, but mostly stick, and ALOT of it."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:As an artist, I would generally vote for oxy-acetylene, as the most versatile.  You can heat, cut, braze, solder, and weld.  Another advantage is that if you learn to oxy-acetylene weld, it will be easy to pick up TIG welding.  Also can be used without any power, so convenient for use out in the field.  I use mine mostly for heating anymore, but that is because I have MIG, TIG, and stick welders in my studio.   I rarely weld outside my studio.MIG is popular because it is inexpensive and easy to use, but all you can do is weld.  Good for sheet metal.Stick is good for welding junk together, unless it is thin (1/16 inch or less).   Cheap to buy, especially used.  This might fit your needs better.Except for stick or flux-core MIG, the other processes, MIG and TIG, also require gases, so you still need to have tanks filled.If you really get into welding, you will end up with all the processes anyway, as each has its place.RichardLast edited by raferguson; 04-29-2011 at 07:15 PM.Sculptures in copper and other metalshttp://www.fergusonsculpture.comSyncrowave 200 Millermatic 211Readywelder spoolgunHypertherm 600 plasma cutterThermal Arc GMS300 Victor OA torchHomemade Blacksmith propane forge
Reply:The problem with O/A is that it is very inefficient for welding heavy plate and will become rather expensive with the size bottles required and the gas pressure settings so for the OP I don't think it would be wise for him to spend the money on a O/A set up at this time since he wants to weld heavy scrap.I basic Stick machine will get him rolling and he'll soon discover he'll need more weapons in his arsenal to attack his Art workEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:I agree with going with a nice Stick welder.   get an larger older machine like a lincoln ideal arc or Miller Dialarc 250 AC/DC machine. these machines will give u 250 amps DC unlike a buzzbox or similar that is 225Amps AC but 125amps DC.    you really want one that has DC and a good duty cycle.   If you are using home 220vac you are limited to about 250 amp machines due to the power requirements unless u get and inverter machine which are usually a lot more $$.  Stick welding also gives you oftions to use various different rods for dissimilar metals, non ferrous, cast iron etc...Last edited by soutthpaw; 04-29-2011 at 09:23 PM.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Oh, as a former HS Shop teacher, I would suggest tracking down sources for scrap metal as it can get very expensive otherwise.  let them know that donations are tax deductible if you are a public school or non profit.   Most places just have a dumpster from a local metal supply and get free haul off.   Auto/ truck and heavy equipment repair shops are great sources.   Also remnants from local welding/fabrication shops.  4x4 speciality shops will have a nice selection of scrap too.  I did a bit of metal art for teaching students.   made it more interesting for them too..  If you are in a Horse area,  see if you can have people save u buckets of horseshoes.   great for welding projects.   best to hot tank them first to avoid the burning poop smellHorseshoes are good because of a consistent size and can be easily welded with OA, SMAW,GMAW, TIG etc.   allows students to compare the differences in the various methods..Last edited by soutthpaw; 04-29-2011 at 09:33 PM.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:What is the op definition of thick. A small flux core machine might be an option especially if its not a high stess or critical applicationMillermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:I'd chose a combination of SMAW and TIG for your own personal projects.  Use Stick for anything 3/16" or thicker, then use TIG for scrap 3/16" and thinner."Real power is an arcair hand torch with a piece of 3/4 inch carbon and 1500 amps.  You feel like Zeus throwing a lightning bolt."
Reply:We used to get a lot of art students at the tech school I used to help out at. There was a mix across the board depending on what type of "art" they wanted to do.Those that wanted to do copper or jewlery generally went with OA, both welding and brazing. Those that wanted to do "general" small steel sculptures usually wanted to learn  mig. Most of the stuff they wanted to do was under 1/8" and could be done with inexpensive 110v migs. Those that wanted to do heavier steel sculpture usually migrated to stick after leaning mig. The 220v migs capable of heavier steel cost more than simple stick machines for a student on a buget. The smallest group were those who wanted minimal welds that didn't show up or wanted to do stainless sculptures that would be polished, and they went with tig. You mention "I am an art teacher looking to possibly incorporate welding into my curriculum " If you are trying to "teach" students to weld, I'd suggest mig as the simplest, then OA brazing, then stick. Note if you can't weld, trying to "teach" others will be an effort in frustration. You will be doing your students a disservice, since you can't weld, how can you teach others to do so? I'd strongly suggest you take a few classes in all processes yourself first. Better yet find a local tech school that has night classes that you can refer your students to and let THEM teach the students to weld. Thats basically what was going on where I was. The students were pointed to us to learn the basics by their college sculpture teacher. After a few classes they'd usually start bringing in their projects and using the tech schools tools to do the sculptures. They'd use the tech school as a "lab" to do their projects and have the welding instructor help them when they had issues..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thanks gentlemen...one more question, are the 115 V 70 Amp stick worth it to a beginner like me?http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...cStoreNum=2021Thanks again
Reply:No. It's got no adjustability as far as amps go, just high and low. Also you are very limited in rod selection as it's designed to run 1/16" or 5/64" rods, not terribly common sizes. You be better off learning stick on a simple 220v AC stick machine like a Lincoln tombstone, Miller Thunderbolt, Hobart Stickmate etc like Ed posted in reply #3. Better would be the AC/DC versions. Used these run as low as $50-150 on CL and are almost impossible to kill. If you must use 110v, the TA95s is a good smaller machine or Millers Maxstar 150. Both are excelent inverters that will run 3/32" with no issues, and the Maxstar can run some 1/8" rods at the lower range of their suggested settings on 110v IIRC.1/16" and 5/64" rods are at best good for 16g to maybe 1/8" steel. Much thinner and you will have issues burning thru, thicker and you won't get any penetration. If you want to do "heavy" steel, you will want to most likely be running 1/8" rods or better, and for that you will need 220v power..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:If you work for a public school, find out where your State government and workforce training liquidate their equipment. We were assigned a bunch of welding machines for free to use in our community college welding program.
Reply:Thanks again...I do work at a public school (middle school) but incorporating welding into my curriculum is a yr or two away at least if I even do it. I have a good idea of which direction I'm going for the welding (leaning towards Lincoln AC/DC like on post 3, plus my school has same model down in maintenance which I was given ok to practice with)...now for cutting. Can this model somehow cut as well? If not any suggestions?Last edited by Guuby; 05-13-2011 at 09:19 AM.
Reply:Air arc rods? Magnesium arc rods?
Reply:While you can cut with an DC arc welder, ususlly you need some serious amps and most small machines don't handle the high amps needed well ( It's a good way to wreck a good welder). Also most arc methods like that leave a less than desireable finish. Mostly it's for rough work.There are a lot of options for cutting. Grinder with an abrasive wheel, abrasive chop saws, Oxy fuel torches, plasma cutter, band saws, recipricating saws, jig saws, hack saws... All depends what you want to cut, how accurate you need to be and how often you need to cut it. Most guys can get by at the start with a grinder and an  abrasive chop saw, baut a torch is  a useful tool if the buget allows..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:If you're going to get a stick welder, look for one of these. I picked this one up for a friend for $104.50. Now that's pretty cheap, but they are often found for around $400.00. These are awesome welders. VERY quiet and enough power to do alot. And you will be able to cut with it using an Arcair carbon arc torch and 1/8", 5/32" and probably 3/16" carbons. You will need to get the Arcair torch and have a good air compressor.Lincoln Idealarc 250Arcair torch"Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:I was hoping the 250 would airarc. Hehehe!  I would like to try that sometime with mine.Stickman is right, you need a proper power source for electric arc cutting. The 250 is small by Air-Arc standards though. In industry, 400 amps is commonplace, and above 600 amps is not at all unusual. However, you have an amazing opportunity to find quality machines at unheard of prices these days. I am almost ashamed to say that I only spent $200.00 for mine.Edit:- If I were trying to start working iron sculpture, I would get an oxyacetylene torch, and at least a 225 Amp AC/DC stick machine, a heavier stick machine will substitute for any smaller version, just turn it down.  Attached ImagesLast edited by tanglediver; 05-14-2011 at 12:46 AM.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:And remember to get the AC/DC model, NOT just the AC. Easy way to tell is the switch in the upper right corner of the front. The AC only version does not have a switch."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:the Miller Dialarc 250 AC/DC is the other machine to consider and basically the same thing as the lincoln also available $400 or less,Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Do you have access to 240v where you'd be working?  This is the first question to answer.  If you can't get access to 240v power, you're going to have a reduced -- and distinct -- set of options.Jack OlsenMy garage website
Reply:For that kind of scrap iron sculpture, I think you want a stick machine, hands down. No other process allows you to weld through paint, rust, dirt – or outside, in the wind – like stick (SMAW).I agree with others who have said you want AC/DC, not just AC. DC runs smoother and is safer.I had a Hobart Stickmate LX (puts out 235A AC / 160A DC) and liked it very much. Costs ~ $450 new.Transformer-based welding machines like that are basically bulletproof and will survive the Apocalypse.Last edited by Kelvin; 05-15-2011 at 05:51 AM.
Reply:Alright after reading through you guys comments pretty sure I'm gonna go with one of the two models that Broccoli1 #3 posting mentioned...the Lincoln AC/DC 225/125 or Hobart Stickmate LX 235 AC/160 DC. From what I've found Lincoln bout $20 more...does that mean it is better? $20 more worth it in long run? Has anyone worked with both? Preferences? Thanks
Reply:You'll spend a lot of $ on an arcair / compressor set up,and its loud. Get some gouging/cutting electrodes,certanium 100 comes as small as 1/8", maybe smaller. It does'nt need much amperage 2 cut and ya run it DCEN (straight).The Stickmate is infinitely adjustable while the Lincoln 225/125 is tapped. I have the Lincoln (since 1989) and it's been good, but knowing what I know now I'd get the Stickmate for the extra DC amperage and fine adjustment since they are tough and proven too.Nice shiny welds can be had with stainless stick electrodes, by the way. 309L is well-behaved.Sharing one smallish MIG between students is the path to suffering, and stick can reach in where MIG guns cannot.  I'd get a torch outfit for cutting and light gas brazing and welding. The Smith Toughcut survives student use quite well and is only around a couple hundred bucks online. You can cut with propane using an LP tip.When students learn to use equipment many of them can afford to purchase (used transformer machines and new OA gear are very reasonable) they benefit because they can pursue their interests at home.I suggest you get a transformer stick machine for yourself, and a torch outfit, if you are interested in teaching the subject. It's well worth what you will learn, and you can come here for advice (post pics of welds).