Gas Nozzle and Stickout

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Heres the question .. My MIG / FCAW is a HF Chicago Elec 151and the thing that I find odd is that the nozzleis adjustable .. as far as how far it is past the face ofthe contact tip ..  with me so far? But, even with it adjust all the way back , its stilllike 3/16" ish past the tip of the contact tip .. Is it because its only usable in short circuit welding?I bought 2 more nozzles and was thinking of putting the older one in my lathe and cutting it back to flush .. and then adjust it to fit the needs...  Comments on all this?? Also , I have to put a fair amount of pressure on the gun switch,which makes it hard to have a steady hand ... hard to relax the hand.and was thinking of putting a jack on the welder for a foot switch .. Can anyone see a problem with that? Also .. I was thinking about Adding a TIG cable .. so that foot switch would help that as well .. I think ..?? OK .. this is an edit ... had to add here .. The reason I want the nozzle flush .. is because .. I want to lay a smaller . narrow bead on a higher setting .. and of I crank the WFS down to no push out as much metal ,then I have to have the contact tip closer to the work .. and of course thats where I run into trouble .. LOL Thanks in advance for the inputs .. RandyLast edited by Lanmanb4; 07-09-2005 at 12:22 AM.
Reply:wow,  well Ive seen this problem a lot on guns ive used in the past.  Ive heard differnt theories.   Some folks think such as you.  They give themselves either a flush or a contact tip stickout of what Ive mostly seen to be around a 1/8" to 1/4"  Another school of thought says that you want the tip further back inside the nozzle.  This enables you to save your tip a little more.  You realy dont want to stick your tip to your work...that bad.Now, the one that really got me puzzled is this desire to add a tig cable.  I think the idea of the foot pedal is pretty cool.  Never seen it, but if it works for you why not.  But the tig cable, not sure how your going to set that up.  I Hope your aware that a tig torch will not work on your power supply.  If im going in the wrong direction with this my apologies.  However, you have a CV machine and Tig requires a CC.  This has been a mistake Ive seen on this site before, and want to clarify this incase this situation is to be repeated.  Anyway, does this give you the info you need?  If not lemmie know well see what we can do.Good luckCHRIS
Reply:Can't comment on the adjustable nozzle, wasn't aware of that. As far as I know the relationship between nozzle and tip is generally about flush (even). By that I mean visually they are about flush give or take some tiny little difference. Mine right now has the tip out something less than a sixteenth maybe. Some folks will even shorten the nozzle to leave the tip out just about an eighth for better visibility. You may have to worry over the gas coverage a little more doing that but it's not something that can't be dealt with. There are different lengths of tips with the same thread. If you don't have a bunch on hand you may want to look around for a longer tip that will fit. Look around for a replacement nozzle of a different length. Tips and nozzles are both pretty cheap. Knowing what little I know now, if my tip was back in 3/16ths I'd solve it somehow, longer tip, shorter nozzle, hacksaw, grinder-------  PS, If you're using flux core, store the nozzle in a drawer, get some anti spatter to protect the tip and diffuser.
Reply:Originally Posted by TxRedneckwow,  well Ive seen this problem a lot on guns ive used in the past.  Ive heard differnt theories.   Some folks think such as you.  They give themselves either a flush or a contact tip stickout of what Ive mostly seen to be around a 1/8" to 1/4"  Another school of thought says that you want the tip further back inside the nozzle.  This enables you to save your tip a little more.  You realy dont want to stick your tip to your work...that bad.Now, the one that really got me puzzled is this desire to add a tig cable.  I think the idea of the foot pedal is pretty cool.  Never seen it, but if it works for you why not.  But the tig cable, not sure how your going to set that up.  I Hope your aware that a tig torch will not work on your power supply.  If im going in the wrong direction with this my apologies.  However, you have a CV machine and Tig requires a CC.  This has been a mistake Ive seen on this site before, and want to clarify this incase this situation is to be repeated.  Anyway, does this give you the info you need?  If not lemmie know well see what we can do.Good luckCHRIS
Reply:As for triggers, I can't say about the HF and Chicago brand machines, but for the rest when you walk into most down and dirty welding shops they'll have bins of npzzles, tips and triggers. Triggers are a common item and fairly easy to change out. Some guys hands are like walnut crushers and triggers don't last long.
Reply:A year later - but... new info yet same question.In my posting 'MIG Welds don't stick', I ended up returning a 117 volt input 70 amp output Campbell Hausfeld because I could not get enough heat out to perform a lap joint between two 1/16 inch thick steel plates using CO2.  I bought a 220 volt input 130 amp output Lincoln to repelace it - tha's when I noticed the difference in nozzle/tips!!!Campbell Hausfeld: 3/8 inch distance from contact tip to nozzleLincoln: ~1/32 inch protusin of tip beyond nozzle.What's the deal?  Like belly-buttons: one's an iny and ones an outy.Now I wonder if the Campbell Hausfeld problem may have been related to that 3/8 inch recess of the contact tip within the nozzle?  By the time you add a stickout distance of 3/8 inch from the nozzle, I was running a 3/4 inch from contact tip to work piece .... that seems L O N G.Reference - ESAB MIG WELDIN HANDBOOK"Controlling tip-to-work distance is important. Long extensions result in excess weld metal being deposited with low arc heat. This can cause poor bead shape and low penetration. In addition, as the tip-to-work distance increases, the arc becomes less stable....  For short arc welding 3/8 in. (9.6mm) tip-to-work distance is recommended."Comments?Rick V
Reply:wen i do spray transfer i put my contact tip about 1/8 in side the nozzle  so it don't melt from the heat for short circuit welding put put it 1/8 out side so i can easily clean off the spatter from the tip and it help's control the weldChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:Stickout is a minor variable where the operator can control the voltage (read heat in the weld pool ) while on the the fly - so to speak.By extending the stickout ,the operator controls heat within the pool. What you have to be aware of is not to extend too much.Beyond a certain limit you can go beyond the gas shield coverage.The function worked very well for me while welding very heavy schedule pipe at Queensland Alumina Limited the largest alumina refinery in the world.This particular type of pipe  welding  was quite unusual and probably not heard of, let alone  seen by many of you experinced welder operators.The pipe wass high carbon steel pressure pipe that was internally electroplated with a nickel deposit on its inner surface. The GMA filler metal was nickel. The root run was completed from the 12 ock to 4.30 ock position ,then reversed from 12ock  back down to 7.30 ock.The dogs were then knocked off and the pipe carefully turned over with slings and the remainder of the root completed.Because of the heavy pipe wall one could extend the stick out and not lose gas cover.The decrease and stickout helped control the penetration bead.The pipe in service carried pregnant caustic liquor up to 800 psi at several hundred degrees.Every ipe weld was subject to full gamma radographic examination.I hope this was of interst to you guysGrahame
Reply:Now I wonder if the Campbell Hausfeld problem may have been related to that 3/8 inch recess of the contact tip within the nozzle? By the time you add a stickout distance of 3/8 inch from the nozzle, I was running a 3/4 inch from contact tip to work piece .... that seems L O N G.
Reply:I prefer my contact tip to be inside my nozzle at least 3-6mm (1/8-1/4") and keep the nozzle 12-18mm (1/2-3/4") from the workpiece. I've never let my tip out past the end of the nozzle or flush and never worked with anyone that does it that way either. Not using MIG with a shielding gas on carbon steel. Personally, I don't like nozzle dip but occasionally use the spray anti-spatter. If the machine is set correctly, spatter build-up is not much of a problem.Always looking for another old VW, especially in the southeast.
Reply:I ran my nozzles/tips flush for many years and then kinda got in the habit of running the tip about 1/4" out from the nozzle face. Dont have gas problems and only stick the tip once in a while. I personally dont see much difference in it. The tip being out gives you a better look at things and feels just a bit hotter but I can use it either way. Personal choice comes to mind here.
Reply:I've got a nozzle ground down a ways to leave the tip out some. I also work with a fan running because of the heat and the overhead doors wide open so on occasions I'll run into a problem. If so I'll just slip the standard nozzle back on. Every now and then I'll have to turn off the fan. I'll also dip the tip once in awhile or even scoop the nozzle in there in a rare instance. I like to run close for some odd reason, probably the sound.But as mentioned stickout is an option to be exercised by the operator depending on the conditions and personal preferrences. The machine and process will dictate much of that but the user does have room to roam. With a convetionally sized machine you just turn the heat up and run a little longer stickout if you'd like. Maybe turn the gas up too. Watch out when you get in close, it really fries in there. It's not something you really give a lot of thought too, just like feathering the clutch or any other semi-automatic responses. You just run it where it works best and do what feels right.But the amount stickout is not unlimited and in Rick Vs' case with the CH rig at 70 amp max and where 3/8 of an inch of user defined range has already been taken away from you something simple can become a big issue. Especially if you haven't had the run time to explore and learn how it can affect the outcome. People can't exercise options they don't have or counter for conditions they don't realize exist and can become frustrated. In Rick V's case it ended with him getting a better machine anyway and cost CH some bad adverstizing. The devil is in the details.
Reply:Constant voltage is how most wire welders are designed to run. Old school guns had adjustable nozzles to help the welder maintain electrode extension or stickout with different wire sizes and still "see" the same amount of wire from gun to puddle. It was really to outsmart the welder. Aluminum was always burning back to the tip so extra nozzle ext. helped. Personal preference really. The voltage in MIG is the essential variable and current or amps is secondary. It is based on resistence in the circuit and stick out. You can fine tune a welder by playing with stick out while welding, but there is a limit to the ability of the machine to run with too much in or out adjustments.Weldtek
Reply:It may show my age ,but I am old enough to remember when some Big Blue machines with twice the power source case size volume of a large refrigerator, had inductance controls.A big flaming wheel,that took ages to learn how to tune to the "Just right" setting.This design had three  electrical variables into the equation. It was an amusement to see the wannabees, each one thinking it was their duty to re adjust and  twiddle with what was already a correct setting. I remmember a wheel maybe a foot in diameter and a crank handle and many, many ,many turns.Thank the Lord and electrical designers for auto inductance settings.Anybody else remember them ?Grahame
Reply:Oh, yeah!Do you remember setting the short sircuit voltage on a MIG gun?Weldtek
Reply:oh yea used an arco like thatChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder