Downhill weld WARNING!!!!

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I haven't posted in a while, just didn't have anything to add.Today, I had a job replacing the landing gear on a 40ft. Freuhauf End-dump trailer.  I cut the welds loose, and then whacked the jack with a sledge, Most of the welds fell right off!The welds were done with mig, DOWNHILL!!!NO FUSION. On a structural member.....from the factory no less!To the beginers: Downhill welding is aceptable in only limited situations, and should only be performed by experienced weldors. Cold lap, in an otherwise good looking weld, can have disasterous consequences!If you have vertical welds to do, LEARN HOW TO WELD VERT-UP!, the life you save may be someone's wife/husband/brother/sister/child...or your own! Attached ImagesWe need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:In the third pic, the shiny spots, where I ground, were the only spots with fusion, and small ones at that..... I knocked most of the weld off with a chisel.We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:Call me a little slow if you wish but I'm not seeing the problem  These welds lasted the life of the jacks. Did their job. You had to cut them off and hit them. And that aint no 16oz ball pein I saw! That trailer is not new and you said they were factory welds. No evidence of previous repairs so it looks like they did all you could ask of a weld. Whats the prob?
Reply:In another circumstance, A downhill cold lap weld, can look good, yet fail, and hurt, maim or kill someone. This was just an example of a downhill weld with no fusion.I thought that YOU, being a profesional weldor, could see a problem with a weld ,supporting thousands of pounds, being done in that fashion.OR, would you reccomend to the beginers, that ALL vert-down welds are ok.Is this how you weld??? ....... Rubbed me wrong on this issue there TEK.I'm trying to offer advice,....... not show how a bad weld made it through, What if it didn't, are you willing to take that chance?....Did you expect a picture of a man killed under it?We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:Well I would never MIG with the kind of steel you had. The word is OXIDE. Maybe that was the problem. Preparation is 50% of the weld. What settings did you used too?My Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3   4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:Originally Posted by elvergonWell I would never MIG with the kind of steel you had. The word is OXIDE. Maybe that was the problem. Preparation is 50% of the weld. What settings did you used too?
Reply:Originally Posted by BBchevy396 A downhill cold lap weld, can look good, yet fail, and hurt, maim or kill someone. . Rubbed me wrong on this issue there TEK.I'm trying to offer advice,....... not show how a bad weld made it through
Reply:Originally Posted by TEKCertainly didnt mean to rub you the wrong way BB. Maybe I was just splitting hairs.........I agree that some welds can look good and not do the job. In that context I agree with you.......However, you cant call this a bad weld if it did what it was supposed to do for the life of the jacks......Me?--On jacks??  I would uphand it w/18 and never look back.
Reply:Originally Posted by BBchevy396My issue, I suppose, is that if it's holding a load, or can hurt someone,... ............DO IT RIGHT!!!,
Reply:Originally Posted by BBchevy396In another circumstance, A downhill cold lap weld, can look good, yet fail, and hurt, maim or kill someone. This was just an example of a downhill weld with no fusion
Reply:I'm not sure who does the hiring for some manufacturers, But I've seen very poor welds on brand new containers (dumpsters, etc). Not only that, but while I was living in Cleveland, my roomate told me that he used to weld in a scrap yard fixing their trucks and stuff. He had never picked up a stinger in his life and they had him "completing" structural welds. So I'm not saying all manufacturers are like this, but some of them have questionable methods.
Reply:what about downhill spray arc, that's not gonna be a cold lap.DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Well, if you can't say it,............. Spray it!We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:Originally Posted by BBchevy396Still very sloppy work, from a manufacturer.
Reply:Originally Posted by BBchevy396I am just replacing the original jacks..... Those were factory welds, on (I assume) new steel.  It was NOT my work!
Reply:BB,Thank you for sharing your experience here.I think you make a really important and valid point about the danger of downhill welding.  The weld may appear fully fused, yet actually be cold lapped.It may be obvious to most here, but for the others, the reason down hill welding is prone to cold lap is this, the welder has to move rather rapidly to keep the arc ahead of the molten weld puddle, so right off the bat the arc heat is not in one place long enough to produce deep penetration, and when the puddle does slip ahead of the arc, it blocks direct melting of the base metal from the arc, and cold lap occurs.I know of one successful commercial application of downhill welding.  This job was a machine weld, it utilized a mechanically oscillated torch which was precisely controlled and moved along the joint via a motorized tractor on a track.  The weld was vertical down pulsed spray GMAW stainless steel cladding on carbon steel.  For this cladding application it was metallurgically important to minimize the amount of penetration and the thus minimized the dilution of the stainless steel weld layer with the carbon steel base metal, so downhill welding was beneficial in that respect, also very fast, but still an extremely delicate balance of fighting gravity.  This worked ok because of the high precision and degree of control provided by the welding machine, not an easy thing to control by hand.
Reply:BB - Thanks for the post! There is only one rule about welding that is chiseled in stone - "The Arc must lead the puddle!" Everything else is someone's opinion, based on achieving a desired condition or result. One definition of quality - The part performs its intended function for the expected life of the part. Certain industries have a "Safety Factor" of 3 engineered into design of a given widget; others have a Safety Factor of 5.I hope the noobs are heeding your advice! Kudos!!!Weldtek
Reply:One question from a NOOB - does this same proscription apply to stick and TIG welding? Or is is more for the MIG welders?Revenos
Reply:yeah good  question. I'm a noob to the hobby and I've found that I can weld uphill much better due to being able to stay ahead of the puddle Since I"m actually having to make it go up instead of trying to keep from running down into my path. So what is the anwser for us noobs.Evan
Reply:Originally Posted by RevenosOne question from a NOOB - does this same proscription apply to stick and TIG welding? Or is is more for the MIG welders?Revenos
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterstick should be done uphill..its a no-brainer..all that flux has to go somewhere..and it ain't going uphill.. mig up up up...tig (if your good) can be done upside down if needed... and thats that.....zap!
Reply:slightly off the topic but; speaking of crappy factory welding:I recently bought a top of the line, name-brand woodstove for my house (to replace an old, old Fisher I had.  Even though its a top end stove I stuck with a "steel plate" version rather than enamelled cast-iron...its got a cast iron door.  The rest is plate.Anyhow, I had to order this through the local dealer, after a couple weeks it arrived and I swung by there with a trailer, loaded it up and drove it home.  I'd had a few hassles with this dealer over the delivery date and apparently he was having "issues" with his delivery truck....I uncrated it here and put it together and damn if the door is sloping about 1/2" over the length of it.  I measured it up trying to decide if the door was cast incorrectly (bad pour or what have you) but no....the tab-style hinges on the stove itself were in the wrong position.  Couldn't believe it.  That was the last straw.  Phoned the guy and told him to come 'n get it.  Refund my money.  Of course he didn't want to....so he hemmed & hawed and said "do you know anybody maybe who could fix it?"....well, I eyed up my trusty Maxstar and said "maybe"...long story short he knocked $300 off the bill and I cut the old hinges off...right here in the living room (I'm divorced so no hassles on that front) with a dremel, lugged the welder & argon bottle up from the shop....made a couple new hinges from some 3/8 plate and tig'd 'em on!  Whole operation took about three hours with the cleanup 'n all so I guess thats not too bad.  I certainly wouldn't recommend buying one of these things though if they make 'em like that!  Couldn't even reuse the old hinge tabs as they were too damn short to begin with and it looked like whoever had stuck 'em on there had made a few passes to build 'em up a bit.  All in all a pretty dismal job.
Reply:Questionable quality is kind of expected, when an eight year old chinese boy is building it, but then the price usually reflects it.   Now, when I buy high priced American made products, and it looks like its made by an individual with the mentality of an eight-year old, That gets me steamed!............. Just a sign of the times, I guess..Pride in workmanship is lost somewhere in the corporate scheme of things....... Profit before pride.Satisfied shareholders, before satisfied customers.......... And they wonder where the loyalty has gone..... Hmm.....We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:NAFTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    Weldtek
Reply:Hey, i recently done some vert downs with a MIG on a barstool racer,steel is 25 x 25mm or 1inch x 1inch RHS or box tubing as you call it,welded on all four sides in some two places on each joint vertical down fillet weld and on the top and bottom horizontal butt welds,also welding some 25 x 25mm to some 6mm thick flat bar (i champhored the sides) and did a verticle down on one side but was told by my teacher afterwards (an ex weldor of 20years) that i should do them horozontally so i welded the other three sides horozontally, what do you guys recon? do i need to be concerned? it is only thin matterial but i was using a fairly high setting.Last edited by mat; 09-23-2006 at 09:19 AM.i did some gas migging today (will post pics in the proper forum)on a driveway grate that goes between the road and the driveway..its all new and done on the floor but i did up and down migging...i did'nt really see a diffrence..except the nozzle spattered over quicker going up  other than that...it was funi hav'nt gas migged in years......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:FYI Everyone knows the best position is flat but face it fellas there are times when we are forced to weld out of position! When this happens it doesn't matter what process but your capabilities and knowledge of the process being utilized. So with that in mind a good welder knows what he can and can't do! But Joe Blow Fab shop welder does not have the education or the experience of a good welder, usually good welders are in the field because they make more then 10 or 12 dollars an hour. One other thing not to pick on zap but what was your reasoning in utilizing TIG to weld the dozer roller in your post when they are usually welded with submerged arc? It aint no Airplane lol.
Reply:One other thing not to pick on zap but what was your reasoning in utilizing TIG to weld the dozer roller in your post when they are usually welded with submerged arc? It aint no Airplane lol.submerged arc? i sowwie i not that advanced... you're kidding right?whatever....the reason i did it with a tig is..BECAUSE I CAN!!sure beats a smelly old stick welder burning 7018..other than that its a 110 fluxcore machine  i'm counting to ten now.... ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Contrary to the opinions stated in this thread x-ray quailty down hill stick and mig welds are done every day.
Reply:Originally Posted by FinneyContrary to the opinions stated in this thread x-ray quailty down hill stick and mig welds are done every day.
Reply:Originally Posted by FinneyContrary to the opinions stated in this thread x-ray quailty down hill stick and mig welds are done every day.
Reply:Originally Posted by BBchevy396The welds were done with mig, DOWNHILL!!!NO FUSION. On a structural member.....from the factory no less!
Reply:I think as long as you have enough experience to know to watch you puddle downhill is fine.  turn down your wire some and go at it.  I've done it for years on multimillion dollar jobs with no problem.  Every position has its advantages.  I do agree if your a nubee don't be welding  on something that's gonna put someone in danger if it fails.DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:If we're just stating opinions here, then....Vertical down is o.k. with any process on sheet metal (3/16" or less) single passes. If there is flux or slag - stick or cored wire - you must manipulate the arc in the puddle so as not to trap slag in the weld. Generally speaking.In "Code" welding applications, the requirement is that the welder must be qualified for the progression of welding in vertical app's. Most welding codes recommend flat welding whenever possible.My recommendation for noobs is, if flat is possible, then flat is the right choice and as your experience and ability improve then weld out of position.90% of the success of a welding job can be guaranteed before you ever strike an arc. Set up and preparation are vital to quality.Weldtek
Reply:Originally Posted by WeldtekIn "Code" welding applications, the requirement is that the welder must be qualified for the progression of welding in vertical app's.
Reply:Originally Posted by TEKCertainly didnt mean to rub you the wrong way BB. Maybe I was just splitting hairs.........I agree that some welds can look good and not do the job. In that context I agree with you.......However, you cant call this a bad weld if it did what it was supposed to do for the life of the jacks......Me?--On jacks??  I would uphand it w/18 and never look back.