Trailer project, little help

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I'm building a trailer and need a little help advice from some of you more educated people.The trailer is 14'x8' and is being built out of 2x4x1/8" rectagular tubing.  It's getting a 3500lb axle and is only going to get at max 2,000lbs on it.  It's not going to be a heavy hauler.I built a 20'x6' trailer out of the same stuff and put cross braces every 2 feet on that trailer.  It is a tandem axle trailer with 3k lb axles used as a landscapping trailer.My question is, do I need to put as much bracing in this trailer?  I was going to put 3 braces throughout the 14' span since it's going to be for lighter weights.I'll post some pictures of the project soon, I'm going to pick up the axle and some other stuff today.  I should start to weld it up early next week, monday or tuesday.
Reply:Yes.  You need to cross brace this trailer at least every 2 feet.You shouldn't attempt to lighten a trailer up just because it will haul less.   There are a couple of reasons why. First, a trailer this long will have a lot of torque and flex to it.  That leads to metal fatigue.  You are only using 1/8 wall tubing  and it would tear out or bend the tubing.  Second,  no matter what you tell yourself,  you will end up overloading it.   Or you may need it in an emergency someday for something you never dreamed of.   Or friend might "borrow" it and do it.  Or someday, you may wish to get rid of this trailer and then you would not be able to because of poor construction.Additionally, 14 feet generally demands a second axle.  12 feet is about all a single axle setup is good for.  You can use one axle, but balancing the load on the trailer so that too much isn't placed on the trailer or the towing vehicle becomes more tedious.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I also agree with lugweld on this issue, another thing that would add to the flex of this trailer is being 8 foot wide. Is that even legal where you live? Thats a very wide trailer. I would also definately reconsider your axle choice like lugweld said. Just my 2 cents.Nick
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldYes.  You need to cross brace this trailer at least every 2 feet.You shouldn't attempt to lighten a trailer up just because it will haul less.   There are a couple of reasons why. First, a trailer this long will have a lot of torque and flex to it.  That leads to metal fatigue.  You are only using 1/8 wall tubing  and it would tear out or bend the tubing.  Second,  no matter what you tell yourself,  you will end up overloading it.   Or you may need it in an emergency someday for something you never dreamed of.   Or friend might "borrow" it and do it.  Or someday, you may wish to get rid of this trailer and then you would not be able to because of poor construction.Additionally, 14 feet generally demands a second axle.  12 feet is about all a single axle setup is good for.  You can use one axle, but balancing the load on the trailer so that too much isn't placed on the trailer or the towing vehicle becomes more tedious.
Reply:Being a torsion axle changes nothing. My $0.02 ~~ Paint it blue! City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:You don't have enough information about your trailer build posted, but what you have mentioned so far is not good. As was mentioned before by lugweld, you need to put the cross members at 2' centers and he is also correct about 14' being too long for a single axle. As was already stated 12' is the maximum length for a single axle trailer, the only exception would be for boat trailers which is another set up all together.I am what I am, Deal with it!If necessity is the Mother of Invention, I must be the Father of Desperation!
Reply:I bet  that trailer guy won't build a trailer that way.  He may advise it as okay, but he probably isn't putting his brand on it either.  One thing to consider, in most states a double axle trailer must have brake axles on either the front axle or on both axles.  It is a saftey isssue. Whether you use them or not is up to you.  But most states won't put a trailer on the road without them. Saving money doesn't mean much if something happens and your trailer breaks and crosses the center line into oncoming traffic.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Listen to Lugweld.  Way more trouble is caused by building too light than by building too heavy.  Personal preference for trailers is angle, I beam or heavy chanel.  Most trailers sit in the weather most of the time and I always worry about what's going on inside tubing.
Reply:I have built and repaired several trailers. The one you are building seems like a large trailer that is using too small of steel.  On one of  the 6x12's (single 3500lb axel for 2 four wheelers) we used 2x3 rec tubing but it was 3/16 wall and the crossmembers were 16" OC.  A buddy of mine is an engineer and he wanted to put sides on his flatbed trailer and after working calculations and what not he speced out 2x2 1/8 angle.  After we arrived at the steel supplier and he looked at the 1/8 he decided on the 3/16. He has always told me that even after all the calculations are done you need to step back and look at what you are building. If it doesn't look right forget what the calculation say, you need to go bigger. I still think the 3/16 is too small but it would be better than the 1/8 you have speced.Just my .02.Millermatic 250 wire feed, Miller Syncrowave 300 old and Bigger than a refridgerator, Lincoln Pro Mig 135, Cutting Torch,
Reply:Have you been to Champions website for some ideas?Champion TrailersCity of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldI bet  that trailer guy won't build a trailer that way.  He may advise it as okay, but he probably isn't putting his brand on it either.  One thing to consider, in most states a double axle trailer must have brake axles on either the front axle or on both axles.  It is a saftey isssue. Whether you use them or not is up to you.  But most states won't put a trailer on the road without them. Saving money doesn't mean much if something happens and your trailer breaks and crosses the center line into oncoming traffic.
Reply:See, the trailer won't break at the saftey chains,  it will snap right before the axles or the axles will come unattatched and cross the lane or a wheel will run off and pass you (this happened to my father on a small trailer once----the wheel came off, rolled past him and fell into the ditch and set the grass on fire....in front of the forestry commision offfice!!!  The were standing there laughing while my dad stomped out the fire).  The back half of your trailer will be crossing the center line while the front half will be happily skidding along the pavement setting the roadside ablaze with its rooster tail of sparks.  Don't laugh  I have seen it happen.But I see you have your mind made up about it and won't consider my experience using and building trailers....so....  Good Luck!!!Last edited by lugweld; 01-04-2009 at 10:04 AM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:As far as the pvc is concerned.  It is just as easy to run washers and tack the to the frame and run your wires through the holes in the washers.  Also most light kits come with wire clips now to secure your wire.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Please, Please, Please !! Dont rely on dinky safety chains to hold a trailer at any kind of speed. I pull trailers every day and have had a 4 x 8 trailer come off the hitch (wasnt latched) and break the safety chains and go right through the intersection, thank god it didnt hit or hurt anyone. But in my opinion the DPS way over rates safety chains!! There is no way they are going to stop a trailer. Main reason i believe is because you cannot get a great weld on a chain to a trailer. The chain is ussually a different steel and just doesnt weld up good enough for me to trust it. It may look like a good weld, but please trust me, it is not going to stop your trailer if it wants to take an alternate route. Although, I always do use them, but they are just added weight when your pulling twenty foot trailers loaded down. Only thing you can rely on is a breakaway for your break system. Just my opinionNick
Reply:For a torsion I'd set that on a piece of heavier angle stiched to the frame. Something like 3" by 2" by 3/16ths" three foot long. Spreads the load out from the mounting point. Depending on the torsion, it may want nothing more than a flat mount or more elaborate like side (bolts) to a fixture that attaches to the frame. Don't know where you get it but I've seen nice 'Z' bar fixtures for mounting torsions. About 4" by 2" by 4" by 3/16ths" arrangement. All kinds of ways of dealing with that point loading and thinner/flexible tubing, angle is a start. Just think it out.
Reply:IMHO(Be it ever so humble)The axle isn't anything more than a fulcrum.  Whether it's one axle or two axles.  I don't see one thing wrong with using one axle if it matches the load.Either step up to 6" tubing, or add a strongback of some kind on the lower side of the frame ahead, under, and behind the axle for a ways.  Or a combination of bothBrakes, in my opinion are a must.  A breakaway brake actuator is a must also.Using less cross braces makes the floor pretty springy, or possibly in danger of collapsing, if the crossbraces are the only means of supporting the floor.  I don't know if you mean full depth crossbraces with angle supporting the floor, or intend to support the floor on the crossbraces alone.You can almost double the no. of crossbraces with one stick of tubing (2 more braces).  It's a pretty small investment in the long run."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by 02RedWS6TAI went in to the place to buy doubles and he was the one that said I don't need them so I don't know.  It has to break the safety chains before it can cross the line, I always put heavy chains on them.  It's only going to hold 2 stand up jet skis most of the time, if some buddies come along then 4 at less than 300lbs each.Mine stay inside and usually don't get pulled in the winter so no salt, I close all ends also.My 20' double axle is built out of the same stuff, it is over 10 years old and is in great shap.  I inspect the welds once a year and no cracks.It's kind of specialized so it's hard to get ideas from a normal trailer sales place.  It's being built for four stand up jet skis, two front to back and two side to side.  As far as over loading it, it will never happen.  This is going to be my 7th trailer so I have one for each need.I did get the extra steel for the braces though, I'll hopefully start welding things up tomorrow.  Any ideas on running the wiring?  I'd like to protect it a little.  My last trailer I ran the wire inside sch 40 pvc under the trailer but after 10 years I've broke some of the PVC and it's a pain to replace.  I was thinking about routing it through the frame rails but it would have to be before I weld it and I'm thinking it would just melt the wires. Any ideas?
Reply:Aw hell, it's a forum.  Lot of ideas, good or bad.  OP's defendin' his stance, and that's ok too.When was the last time ya did some beers around the back of the truck with yer buds?  Bet y'all didn't agree on too muchThe disagreement is what I learn from.  I really like it.  Keeps ya honest"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by trailgoosePlease, Please, Please !! Dont rely on dinky safety chains to hold a trailer at any kind of speed. I pull trailers every day and have had a 4 x 8 trailer come off the hitch (wasnt latched) and break the safety chains and go right through the intersection, thank god it didnt hit or hurt anyone. But in my opinion the DPS way over rates safety chains!! There is no way they are going to stop a trailer. Main reason i believe is because you cannot get a great weld on a chain to a trailer. The chain is ussually a different steel and just doesnt weld up good enough for me to trust it. It may look like a good weld, but please trust me, it is not going to stop your trailer if it wants to take an alternate route. Although, I always do use them, but they are just added weight when your pulling twenty foot trailers loaded down. Only thing you can rely on is a breakaway for your break system. Just my opinion
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammAw hell, it's a forum.  Lot of ideas, good or bad.  OP's defendin' his stance, and that's ok too.When was the last time ya did some beers around the back of the truck with yer buds?  Bet y'all didn't agree on too muchThe disagreement is what I learn from.  I really like it.  Keeps ya honest
Reply:I'd like to throw my $.02 in, if that's ok. IMO, just like farmersamm said, the axle is not a problem. I see nothing wrong with a single axle trailer.... easier to maintain....easier to hook up to... and wears less tires out. You won’t be anywhere near the 3.5K limit. So go for it. You mentioned you would use tube and cap the ends...then about wire routing.... The best caps and plugs in the world won’t keep water of that tube. Not after you drill holes for the wire to come out at the tail lights, clearance lights etc. Even with silicon plugging the hole. Not to mention there will probably be a few holes drilled for a license plate, and wire ties etc. That tube will be full of water the first time you back it in..... Salt or fresh water doesn’t matter.... the only difference is salt will rust it faster....tube WILL rust. What will eventually happen is that you'll be forced to drill weep holes in the bottom of the tube to let the water out after launching your ski's. After the first time you see "rusty water" leaking in your driveway from the trailer.  I think you would probably go with at least 3/16 channel to make your frame. I would not mount my axle directly to the frame, so that you can move the axle…. You said you might carry an odd number of ski's.... but if you find you are only carrying two most of the time, the load distribution might get squirrely if you only load them on the back. If that is the case the trailer might sway so you can either move the ski's or move the axle. This is cheaply done (see: http://www.championtrailers.com/UNDERCARRIAGES.htm), just fabricate some axle slides or hangers out of angle iron, then you can use pins or bolts to hold it to the frame and adjust as necessary. And like Farmersamm said you might want these sliders to be 4-6' long to help distribute the load a little better on the lighter material.
Reply:And if it gives me any credit, I've spent my whole life on a farm and around boats/trailers.
Reply:Hey 02, where bout do you live? I also have a 3 stand-ups i like riding.Nick
Reply:02Red,Welding chain is illegal.  It destroys the integrity of the chain.  You can not get welded chain to pass a homemade traier inspection in Geogia if the inspecting officer knows what he is doing.  Additionally that chain you get from TSC is probably the worst chain you can get for saftey. It has to be DOT approved chain. It SHOULD be forged.  It also is specially annealed.  I would say that you might need to call your state DOT office to get some info on building trailers before you get any farther.  You might take a big gulp.  Cut a piece of 3x3 angle iron wide as your tongue and weld it so the tongue completes the triangle with the angle iron, preferable on the the bottom.  Then run you chain through that.  It will allow your chain to move freely when you are turning, and still perform its emergency duty correctly.  A 3500 lb DOT saftey chain with  DOT approved hooks already installed  costs me 7.49 at my local Agri-Supply store.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by minnerI'd like to throw my $.02 in, if that's ok. IMO, just like farmersamm said, the axle is not a problem. I see nothing wrong with a single axle trailer.... easier to maintain....easier to hook up to... and wears less tires out. You won’t be anywhere near the 3.5K limit. So go for it. You mentioned you would use tube and cap the ends...then about wire routing.... The best caps and plugs in the world won’t keep water of that tube. Not after you drill holes for the wire to come out at the tail lights, clearance lights etc. Even with silicon plugging the hole. Not to mention there will probably be a few holes drilled for a license plate, and wire ties etc. That tube will be full of water the first time you back it in..... Salt or fresh water doesn’t matter.... the only difference is salt will rust it faster....tube WILL rust. What will eventually happen is that you'll be forced to drill weep holes in the bottom of the tube to let the water out after launching your ski's. After the first time you see "rusty water" leaking in your driveway from the trailer.  I think you would probably go with at least 3/16 channel to make your frame. I would not mount my axle directly to the frame, so that you can move the axle…. You said you might carry an odd number of ski's.... but if you find you are only carrying two most of the time, the load distribution might get squirrely if you only load them on the back. If that is the case the trailer might sway so you can either move the ski's or move the axle. This is cheaply done (see: http://www.championtrailers.com/UNDERCARRIAGES.htm), just fabricate some axle slides or hangers out of angle iron, then you can use pins or bolts to hold it to the frame and adjust as necessary. And like Farmersamm said you might want these sliders to be 4-6' long to help distribute the load a little better on the lighter material.GA used to be that way too until just a few years ago.  Things may have changed there too.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT