Fixing a leg

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I recently completed a stick welding class and once a week - we welded for 3 hours, 6013, 6011 and then 7018 for 10 weeks. My first project outside of class is to fix a leg on one of my dad's old desks. In class, we didn't spend time cleaning or preparing real world metal. My question here is that I'd like to get an idea what I need to do to prep this desk - and which rod I should use.My thoughts: I figured I needed to sand the area down to the bare metal. I've got some sand paper and an orbital sander and went ahead and picked up an angle grinder with a few different wheels - any suggestions? I don't think this is really thick steel and need only hold a few books and the like - nothing over 500 lbs, so I figured 6013 would be fine. If it worked, I also thought I'd reinforce all the legs.I also know that 6011 works on "dirty" metal ... and I don't mind grinding the result down if that would make it easier to get the weld on there. Just wasn't sure about the thickness of this desk and if 6011 would melt right through it.On another note, I have a little AC/DC Buzz box but I read somewhere that 6011 is actually 6010 with some additional ingredients in the flux to make it work better using AC. My buzz box will do DC+ but neither Lowes nor Home Depot seem to carry 6010 - I'm wondering if I should hold out using 6011 if 6010 will actually producer a better weld.First post! Thanks for being here and being so active!-Luther
Reply:6011 works just as well as 6010 on DCEP, but no better, in my opinion. Go for it.
Reply:Compared to your welding classes... with likely 1/8 inch electodes welding on material likely 1/8 inch thick or greater, that desk-leg metal is way thinner.  So, be real careful not to burn through.I'd use a small diameter electrode (1/16 inch) at low amperage - like 6013 at say 40 amps.Last edited by Rick V; 06-27-2011 at 05:37 PM.Reason: left over text at bottomRick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:That's a really good point. We were using 3/32 and 1/8 rods on mostly 1/4 plate ... and this desk is thin sheet metal. I'll call around and find some 1/16 before I get started. Thanks!
Reply:Originally Posted by LutherBakerI recently completed a stick welding class and once a week - we welded for 3 hours, 6013, 6011 and then 7018 for 10 weeks......we didn't spend time cleaning or preparing real world metal.
Reply:How I think I would do it if it had to look good....With a  4" grinder I'd wire-brush both pieces clean.Next I'd position the leg into place and clamp it somehow so it holds right.Using the smallest rods I had on hand (probably 3/32 6010 or 60+ at this moment) set my heat about as low as I could make it weld (around 40 or so amps) and tack up the joint with at least 4 tack welds.Then remove the clamps.Buff and clean up the tack welds. (lightly grind them down if necessary)Turn the table over so I could down-hill all the welds. (at least on some kind of a down-hill slope.  With my rod choice that is possible for me to do)My first pass would be a filler.  This is a very important pass and one that many wouldn't even think about running.  All I'd try to do is fill the joint up flush and keep it neat all the way around.  This would give me something to weld on and would also thicken up the weld joint.  The smoother this filler is the easier my cover pass will be to run and the nicer the finished weld will look.  Since trying to fill and cover in one pass is more difficult running the filler is actually better.  I'll have the time I need to figure out what heat I need, get a feel for how this thing is going to weld and what I can do with it, and also how my rods are acting.  Running the filler the most important thing is to not burn-through.  A hole is hard to fix and it also widens out the weld joint which will make my cover pass look bad and be harder to run.  I can step in and out of the weld if I haft to, and I can even put on a little more where needed to straighten up the filler if it comes out lower than I want.  The filler pass is important and  actually is strong enough to hold a joint like this by itself. Wire-brush (and maybe even grind a little here and there) my filler pass and clean it up.Lay on my cover pass.If I did my job right this weld would look good.But if it didn't haft to look all that good I'd just step a hot pass around it in all that rust and paint and forget about it.   As for rod choice.  More than likely that material is not even grade B (X42), so any 60 rod is far strong enough to weld it.Good luck manLast edited by slowhand; 06-28-2011 at 10:14 AM.
Reply:My welding class was the same. Just running beads over and over again. I learned a lot about running beads, but almost nothing about fitting.I agree with RickV. 1/16" 6013 at ~45a
Reply:Originally Posted by LutherBakerI recently completed a stick welding class and once a week - we welded for 3 hours, 6013, 6011 and then 7018 for 10 weeks...  we didn't spend time cleaning or preparing real world metal. My question here is that I'd like to get an idea what I need to do to prep this desk - and which rod I should use.
Reply:I agree RickV. In my mind, a beginners welding course should consist of a few things.a day on metal prepa day on basic fitting tricks and proceduresa day on torch cutting/weldinga day on 6011a day on 6013a day on flux-core gaslessa day on MIGa day on TIGand then the rest of the time should be used however the student likesJust my opinion. For what it's worth though, I feel GOOD about my ability to run stick. That alone was worth my time
Reply:Oh, I think classes are like this because of cost. They can't afford to give us any metal. We practically used the same coupons every day.
Reply:Remove wheel, remove that end-cap/plug on the lower horzontal member if the cap/plug is plastic and removable, check thickness of the metal you have there, wire-brush paint and mild rust off, wipe/spray down with solvent of choice (Safety First!), hit areas where you will weld with a mild bit of grinding disk or flap disk as needed to get to clean, shiny steel.  Clean and shiny metal -ALWAYS- welds better.Rig/jig/clamp pieces together, tack with appropriate size filler and amperage based on filler size and material size, double-check fit-up and squareness, then weld.Prep time = hmmm, maybe 30 minutes if you go slow and stop for a coffee as well.Weld time = hmmm, low single-digit number of minutes.That metal is so thin, I don't see the need for root and filler passes.  Just tack it (in a few symmetrical places so that the cooling tack welds don't pull it all out of square) and then run a small smooth bead on the seam.  Done.  Me?  I'd MIG it with some 0.025 wire and C25.  The 'classic' for welding thin sheetmetal.If you haven't welded thin sheetmetal before, practice first.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:This was an evening class once a week for 10 weeks so what you've listed would have only left 2 days for actual welding ... and in the class' defense, I was very very very happy for all the observed weld time. It took me several sessions, questions, attempts, observations, etc ... back and forth with the instructor - before I even understood what to focus on ... and then a few more sessions until I realized how important the pool was ... (and now I just need to some scrap metal to practice on everyday ... another story).And, at least now, I can ask questions about cleaning and prepping metal instead of core welding questions that can't so easily be answered by someone not looking over my shoulder. On the final day, we indeed played with a plasma cutter and two MIG machines - one of which was setup with gas (no slag!!!). I'm not sure I would edit that class per se ... but I'd sure be ready now for a class that takes those skills and starts making very basic projects where we have to clean, clamp, fit and prepare the metal .... Originally Posted by TaidenI agree RickV. In my mind, a beginners welding course should consist of a few things.a day on metal prepa day on basic fitting tricks and proceduresa day on torch cutting/weldinga day on 6011a day on 6013a day on flux-core gaslessa day on MIGa day on TIGand then the rest of the time should be used however the student likesJust my opinion. For what it's worth though, I feel GOOD about my ability to run stick. That alone was worth my time
Reply:We did learn that 6010/11 is a decent general purpose choice but is an especially good choice for dirty metal. In this particular case, the metal is painted so I wasn't sure if, in the real world, this would be a perfect time to use some 6010/11 since I might not have to do a lot of prep work. But, I also know that 6011 spattered the most on me. We cut our teeth on 6011 and the day I started 7018 was like we just turned the corner. Suddenly, slag chipped off easily and the underlying bead looked really nice. But I know that, 7018 requires really clean metal ... and for that, this desk project would require some cleaning and prep. But sometimes, the academic environment just ain't the real world .... so how important would it be, I was wondering. I'd also need to dry out some 7018 in my home stove  and wondered if, in this case, 7018 would be overkill. Finally then, I realize that 6013 is generally preferred for sheet metal - but again, clean sheet metal. So in my mind, I was really wondering whether the "real world" would simply weld this with 6011 and just be done with it ... or if the normal solution would be to clean it to the bare metal and then use 6013. We didn't weld sheet metal nor did we get this small in class - and so the realization that I needed to get some 1/16 6013 was worth every penny of this post (which I thankfully found to today at CeeKay!!)So - part of me "knows" lots of these facts - I've just not had to use them or make any real decisions yet. That is the main reason for my original post - I don't work in the industry so I miss some of the simple assumptions and best practices in the real world that folks just automatically learn or adhere to when they are around it all day everyday ... that, and part of me just wants to get involved with this forum so thought I'd just lay my first project on the table without assuming much - see what I can learn.PS: Just kidding about the stove. I picked up a cheap Keen oven that should hold 10 rods at 300 degrees last week. Hope to plug it in soon! Originally Posted by Rick VI'm glad Aquafire posted that comment.  Not knowing what size or type (6011, 6013, 7014, 7018, etc) electrode to use bothered me too.What's happened to arc-welding courses?Luther got no training in material preparation and no instruction in choice of welding electrodes for different material thickness - not his fault... but Jeez!Taiden just ran beads 'over and over again' - not his fault... but Jeez!While running beads is good practice for consistency, it's a whole different story when you actually have to prepare and weld two pieces of metal together - be it groove or fillet welds.Something not right here with these 'welding' courses.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick V;526653[SIZE="4"What's happened to arc-welding courses?[/SIZE]Something not right here with these 'welding' courses.
Reply:@slowhand and @moonriseThanks for the great detail! Indeed, I popped off the endcaps and disassembled the frame so I've essentially got two Qs (they form the left and right leg groups). I've decided to reinforce all the seams as such and I think a flap disk should get me cleaned up on most of those joints.And although it is probably the "correct" welder to use, I'm skipping the MIG solution as (a) I don't have a MIG machine and (b) I haven't taken that class yet  and (c) I'm trying to get stick practice !!!!Thanks again for the all the discussion and suggestions. Our instructor often said that "we are welders, not grinders" ... so I'll do my best to lay a good bead with very little grinding touch up and post the result here. Originally Posted by MoonRiseRemove wheel, remove that end-cap/plug on the lower horzontal member if the cap/plug is plastic and removable, check thickness of the metal you have there, wire-brush paint and mild rust off, wipe/spray down with solvent of choice (Safety First!), hit areas where you will weld with a mild bit of grinding disk or flap disk as needed to get to clean, shiny steel.  Clean and shiny metal -ALWAYS- welds better.Rig/jig/clamp pieces together, tack with appropriate size filler and amperage based on filler size and material size, double-check fit-up and squareness, then weld.Prep time = hmmm, maybe 30 minutes if you go slow and stop for a coffee as well.Weld time = hmmm, low single-digit number of minutes.That metal is so thin, I don't see the need for root and filler passes.  Just tack it (in a few symmetrical places so that the cooling tack welds don't pull it all out of square) and then run a small smooth bead on the seam.  Done.  Me?  I'd MIG it with some 0.025 wire and C25.  The 'classic' for welding thin sheetmetal.If you haven't welded thin sheetmetal before, practice first.
Reply:note:  Although 'some' welding methods and fillers/fluxes may "tolerate" crud (paint, oil, grease, rust, etc) when you go to weld youALWAYSget a better weld if you clean the area to nice, clean, shiny metal.Also, the heat from welding will scorch or burn the paint in the area anyway, so you might as well remove it before you weld.  Better weld AND a better chance to check the condition of the metal (remember clean and shiny?   ) and then you just have to go back and touch up the paint (if desired).  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:You said 6013 is good for sheet. Your legs are thin enough to basically be boxed sheet metal. And yes, my course sounds like it was IDENTICAL to yours. And like you said, I am very grateful for the time spent under the hood running beads. It gave me confidence to be able to tackle some things with a stick welder that I may have otherwise been too inexperienced to handle. THAT SAID, I do wish there was more variety and would have liked to do more things. Even if It was just a bit of fitting/prep, a bit of MIG on sheet, and a bit of 6011/7018 on 1/8 - 1/4 stuff.
Reply:I'm guessing the legs that you want to repair are about 14 gauge. This is do able with stick but you want to find some scrap of the same gauge and practice it first because you will blow a few holes getting the hang of it. I find 1/16 rods a pita to run. 5/64 in you can find them or 3/32 are easier to run. Any of the rods listed can do the job but they the 6010/6011 will run differently than the others and can be whipped. This whipping action is the key to using them with sheet metal.Tough as nails and damn near as smart
Reply:BTW: Welcome to the forum
Reply:We talked about the "whipping motion" but never really used it as we never really got to vertical positions (where I think it is pretty prevalent) ... but, does anyone have a diagram, visual or video showing the motion?Most brief descriptions from google sound more like a back and forth motion. But when I hear whip I can't help but think of Harrison Ford and the Temple of Doom. It seems that a whipping motion should have a snap at the end right?Or is there another reason it is called "whipping". If I'm laying flat bead on a plate with the rod around 60 degrees, is the whipping motion like a 'pull slightly up and forward and then push slightly back down' motion ... gradually moving down the plate so you're pulling a bit more then you're pushing? Originally Posted by tresiI'm guessing the legs that you want to repair are about 14 gauge. This is do able with stick but you want to find some scrap of the same gauge and practice it first because you will blow a few holes getting the hang of it. I find 1/16 rods a pita to run. 5/64 in you can find them or 3/32 are easier to run. Any of the rods listed can do the job but they the 6010/6011 will run differently than the others and can be whipped. This whipping action is the key to using them with sheet metal.
Reply:[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWQXIjE5cz4[/ame]
Reply:I dunno about that video - I had to stop it before the 2:00 mark...That 7018 "Weld" he is running is gonna be some ugly - Electrode Inclination is WAY too "Flat" for a 2F Weld - He is running cold, and is gonna have a high ropey bead with minimal penetration.I was trying to reach into the screen to adjust his hand position and find the knob on the welding machine.I wasn't thrilled with the 6010 demo weld either for the same reasons, but I thought I'd give him a chance.  He wasn't hot enough that he needed to "whip" he was just stirring up a hot molten blob as he travelled.I don't see ANY Fusion at the leading edge of the welds - That's not what it looks like through my helmet.EDIT: I'll cut the guy some slack - I'm a sucker for punishment sometimes, so I went back and watched some more - He mentions having to lay the rod down "Because of the camera being in the way" while welding with the 7024.  Settings are still way off.Last edited by Black Wolf; 06-29-2011 at 09:19 PM.Later,Jason
Reply:Thanks @Taidon,That guy is fun to watch. Whip and pause sort of looks like a shuffle. I can't really tell from the camera angle but is he pulling the rod "up" off the material in his forward motion?
Reply:He actually mentions in the video that most of the rods he is running too cold. He also has to change his angle a lot for the camera. But it's the best video 'overview' of what different rods look like under the hood I could find, and I thought LutherBaker might enjoy the brief display of a short whip.
Reply:Originally Posted by Taiden... it's the best video 'overview' of what different rods look like under the hood I could find, and I thought LutherBaker might enjoy the brief display of a short whip.Originally Posted by slowhandMy first pass would be a filler.  This is a very important pass and one that many wouldn't even think about running... Since trying to fill and cover in one pass is more difficult running the filler is actually better... The filler pass is important and actually is strong enough to hold a joint like this by itself.
Reply:Very funny for you to say that.  I promise - I do find it amusing.  You missed it dude.  You just don't understand what I was saying or even why I said what I did.   Take a step back and relax Wolf.    I was talking to the OP..... not to you..    You can do what you want.  If my described technique is not to your liking then that's you opinion, but considering the OP's apparent experience level then what I typed was correct for him at this time (IMO), at least that's how I see it anyway.Besides.... If I were the inspector - inspecting welds on these "desk legs" repairs (   ) - then they better be 2 passed because I'm not going to buy "ANYTHING" wrong.   Yea I'm that tough.  lolGood luck guys.laterLast edited by slowhand; 06-30-2011 at 08:40 PM.
Reply:"Clean and Sound" clean it, and make sure there's enough sound metal left to maintain the structure...
Reply:Originally Posted by Black WolfI'm not gonna attempt to pick you apart on this - Everyone has their way,