Aluminum Welding Questions.

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Been doing alot of reading around this forum... didnt know there was that much to learn about all this lol. But I have a few questions that were brought up that I couldnt quite find answers to. 1: With Arc welding, the way it works is a copper clamp clamps down on the rod, and the rod completes the circuit on contact, right? The circuit is completed the usual way with a copper clamp on the work for the negative side, correct?2: What, if any, are the differences between Arc and Stick welding (or do I even have Arc and Stick welding confused in the first question)? 3: And just to clarify, TIG welding uses a piece of tungston as a (Ca?)thode to strike an arc on the metal, melting it, and then you simply add in the filler (a rod) into the molten work to make the weld? The torch consists of a line that transfers both electricity and shielding gas to the work at the contact point, right? Basically, like a MIG torch but without the wire traveling through it all? I have been researching the best / easiest way to weld Aluminum (like intake manifolds, turbo intercooler pipes, etc). I have a basic 220v / 110 amp MIG welder that I have just been using without gas. I am pretty novice and am basically to the point where I can make ugly, but air / water-tight welds. I have read that I would end up having to buy alot of stuff to make my MIG welder work well with Aluminum (or even replace it with a much more expensive MIG), so I figure it would be best to upgrade, or at least buy a separate setup. Based on a bunch of reading about the positives and negatives of Oxy Acetylene and Tig welding, I have found that O/A welding is both slower, more difficult, and less consistant (can't adjust the flame to an exact number every time) than TIG welding. I also thought TIG welders were way expensive, but I found a "TIG" welder that is in the same price range as an O/A setup with gas tanks. My question is which would be the better choice of these two (considering weld quality and consistancy):Arc/TIG welder:http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=91811'Heavy Duty' O/A setup:http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=92496Both would cost around the same to buy after you factor in the gas tanks, and both would cost around the same to operate if you think of it like the electricity replacing the second gas tank. Is the TIG welder powerful enough at 130 peak amps to weld aluminum? If the TIG / Arc welder turns out to be the better choice, and it ends up working ok, then I will likely sell my current MIG welder to recoup some of the costs of buying it, which will be a plus. Im not concerned about either setup being able to weld steel, since it seems you can practically weld steel with a gas-soaked match and some paper clips, but Id think that it would be much easier to get better welds with the electric welder. I dont think every time I wanted to weld steel a little bit that I would want to mess with the O/A setup, which is why I havent considered replacing my MIG welder with an O/A setup. Cliffs:What do you guys think about which welding setup, of OxyAcet and the TIG/Arc welders, would be a better choice. Thanks!
Reply:Hmm... apparently that 'TIG' welder wont do aluminum (not exactly sure why, just was told it wont). Are there any other decently priced (like 400 at most, but preferable under 300) electric welders that can do aluminum? If not, would the O/A setup work OK for me then?
Reply:Get an O/A setup, be careful of tank size (you need to know how thick material your gonna weld), get a smith or victor torch instead of the HF one.The biggest Tip I have used so far is a #4 victor on 1/4 inch steel.  A #2 would work for 1/8, #3 or #4 for 3/16.  Set your regulators on about 4 to 5 psi and have at it.  T joints and lap joints are the hardest to do.After you get good at the steel stuff, then start thinking about the tig and aluminum.  All the o/a stuff you learn will transfer to tig with the exception of the added foot controller which will control your heat (instead of pulling the torch away like O/A).  Aluminum welds somewhat like steel except the puddle will simply appear after the aluminum becomes shiney.  Take this advise as you will.  There are many welders here way above my experience level that might advise you differently.  LISTEN TO EM.
Reply:Originally Posted by JMcDonaldHmm... apparently that 'TIG' welder wont do aluminum (not exactly sure why, just was told it wont). Are there any other decently priced (like 400 at most, but preferable under 300) electric welders that can do aluminum? If not, would the O/A setup work OK for me then?
Reply:In order to TIG weld aluminum, you need to use an AC high frequency current in order to break through the aluminum oxide layer to achieve complete fusion. Not sure if they make a unit that will work with that arc/tig in order to do that. I've only seen units that are either built for AC or not.You can mig weld aluminum using aluminum wire and argon gas. By far the easiest way to weld aluminum.You can also O/A weld aluminum but I've never tried it, supposedly very difficult.Stick welding aluminum will work in a pinch but it's very difficult to produce attractive welds, its very smokey and more difficult than stick welding steel.If you only want to spend $400, look into setting up your mig to do aluminum.Freelance Fabber91 GMC 3500 Portable welding truckLincoln Weldanpower 8000 gas welderMiller CST 250 Smaw/Gtaw inverterMillermatic 210 gmaw line welderHyperterm plasma
Reply:Originally Posted by JMcDonaldHmm... apparently that 'TIG' welder wont do aluminum (not exactly sure why, just was told it wont). Are there any other decently priced (like 400 at most, but preferable under 300) electric welders that can do aluminum? If not, would the O/A setup work OK for me then?
Reply:So really Id be best off making my MIG work better? I dont think my MIG has a teflon liner. I have tried messing with aluminum wire (.030) and it didnt seem to have too much of a problem feeding, but I think it could have been better. I didnt use gas so of course I just got a bunch of sparks and little balls of aluminum everywhere (just trying stuff out). Should I just try getting an argon tank and trying it out? Also, what are some different things I could do to make it better? Where do you find and how to you install a teflon liner? The only thing Ive found about spool guns shows that they come as part of some welders, all in the 450+ range, so it wouldnt be a 'bolt-on' affair like I'd hope. My welder can only do 110 amps, is that even enough for aluminum? I have read that it takes alot more energy to get hot since the heat spreads through the work instead of staying in one spot and melting that spot. So I suppose Im back to my original (not sure if I posted this or not) question of if I should just buy an argon tank and go for it with my MIG, or if I should try my hand at O/A. My worry is that my current welder will have constant feeding problems and that it might not be able to supply the energy needed to weld aluminum properly (or at least for very long). I understand that O/A is much more difficult, but I guess my thinking is that Id rather have a chance at improving the weld quality through practice rather than being unable to advance due to the inadequacy of the welder itself (if that end sup being the case).To sum it up:1: Where can I get a teflon liner and how would I install it?2: Even with the Teflon liner and doing all the basic Mig techniques, can I still count on my basic MIG to adequately weld aluminum?This is my welder BTW:http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=6271 I just noted that it says it can use aluminum wire... could that mean it comes with a teflon liner, or at least some type of liner that is sufficient for feeding aluminum?Last edited by JMcDonald; 12-23-2006 at 01:58 AM.
Reply:3: And just to clarify, TIG welding uses a piece of tungston as a (Ca?)thode to strike an arc on the metal, melting it, and then you simply add in the filler (a rod) into the molten work to make the weld? The torch consists of a line that transfers both electricity and shielding gas to the work at the contact point, right? Basically, like a MIG torch but without the wire traveling through it all?
Reply:Would simply hooking up an argon tank and taking basic aluminum precautions work ok with my MIG? I still cant find anything at all about aquiring a teflon liner.
Reply:After even MORE reading I have found something else I like about O/A welding. The fact that it seems to be the slowest process seems to make it more controllable for novices. I would much rather take all day and be able to control it rather than have to "go like a bat out of haides" with MIG, as has been recommended, and face a much greater risk of messing something up. Also since I am using a MIG instead of a TIG, I wont have the on-the-fly heat adjustability of a foot pedal, whereas the torch can be moved closer and further quite easily to adjust heat. Gah... back and forth. Im sure Ill find some more info and develop more questions before anyone can even answer mine. But still, thanks for bearing with me!Last edited by JMcDonald; 12-23-2006 at 05:12 AM.
Reply:My suggestion would be to get an inexpensive (not cheap) Oxy/Acetylene setup and get the hang of gas welding steel first.  Just take your time forming and maintaining a puddle.  Try welding without filler rod at first until you get a good feel for the heat control and are able to move the puddle along.  Then work on adding filler rod to the puddle with your non-torch hand.  Once you have gotten relatively good at O/A and can produce consistently good welds on steel, then I would consider moving up to a TIG and start playing with aluminum.  The skill set you acquire with O/A will transfer directly to TIG welding... and in fact make TIG seem much easier.I think anything else you do is kinda putting the cart before the horse.  As with anything, you should get a good handle on the basic skills before you move on to more advanced (and expensive) processes.  You'll end up a much better weldor in the long run.Just my 2 cents... good luck with whatever you decide. Dave
Reply:Originally Posted by JMcDonaldI have a basic 220v / 110 amp MIG welder that I have just been using without gas.
Reply:Ah.. Just takes money eh?  You know, how bout checking out a local welder and see if he'll let you try some stuff out, so you can see what your getting into.  The local guys here are pretty cool and seem amused that Im interested in welding.. (Im 40 years old and am just starting out  )Most scrap yards and body shops have welders on board that might be helpful.
Reply:On another note I don't agree (this is just my opinion) with you needing to buy an O/A set up and practice that before moving on to GTAW. For example: What does anyone practice before trying to learn GMAW?                  What did you practice before learning SMAW?When I use the word practice I don't mean " What course did you take at school before the next?" I mean, What process did you use that best mimics the fundamentals of SMAW before moving to SMAW? and the same for GMAW.  None!! You just learn it and practice what you are learning and you become proficient at it. There are some similarities within the processes ie; GMAW with fluxcore or dualshield wire and SMAW and that really only relates to having a better understanding of what is going on in the weld puddle, the transfer process itself is a world apart from one another. Again..... in short O/A is still a good skill to have but you don't need to learn it to learn GTAW._________________Chris
Reply:i would get a tank of argon see how your MIG dose on some scrap. if you like the results great you are set, if you are not happy with the results then go to O/A the tank you got for argon can be swoped out for an oxy. tank so no $ lost there and you have had a chance to try the mig out.aluminum is tricky to weld no mater what you use to weld it, trying it with cheep tools like a $300 TIG will likely add to your frustration. i waited till i could aford a TA-185 at $1700 befor messing with it. although i do have an O/A setup i wanted to play with TIG any way.some really important things to remember about aluminum reguardless of what process you use to weld it.1 make shore it is verry claen befor atempting to weld it, SS wire brush or wheel, scotch bright pads, and an acitone whipe down just befor starting.be carfull with a SS whire wheel if its going too fast and too much presher you can eat away the aluminum  ot heat it up enough to melt it.2 never cross use tools with steel and aluminum. use only SS wire brushes and never use the sme ones on steel, aluminum cleaning tools need to never be used on steel or they will pick up lil bits of steel that will cause you problems when you start to weld.however you decide to weld aluminum be shore to give it sone practice time. aluminum is had to do and will take practice. there is a reason its more expensive to have aluminum welded. it requires more skill and more expensive tools to do it right.good luck. summer is here, plant a tree for mother earth. if you dont have time or space, sponcer some one else to plant one for you.feel free to shoot me a PM or e-mail me at [email][email protected] i got lots of time.
Reply:Thanks everyone for the advice, everyone! Really helpful. I really doubt Ill be going up to anything more expensive than this while Im in college, so I suppose that puts any type of TIG welder out of the question. Whatever I use will likely be what Ill be using til after graduation. Also, Id like to become pretty proficient at whatever I end up with after not too long, so I can start making stuff (car parts, plus Ill need to do some more fabrication on my car and eventually put a roll cage).  Originally Posted by fun4now.i would get a tank of argon see how your MIG dose on some scrap. if you like the results great you are set, if you are not happy with the results then go to O/A the tank you got for argon can be swoped out for an oxy. tank so no $ lost there and you have had a chance to try the mig out.
Reply:1: yes thats how it works2:stick, (smaw shielded metal acr weld) also call arc  but the all use an acr to weld (mig,tig,stick)3:tig,  tungstun does not melt.. but you got the rest  right  of coarse im not much help today
Reply:*sigh*I just added a long-winded edit to my post but it was deleted since I passed the 30 minute limit... That is very irritating.Ill try again (although nothing is as good the second time you have to do it...).I have under 10 hours of actual welding experience. This tank was my first welding project (where I gained the first 7ish hours) http://www.jacobmcdonald.com/host/jake_trunk.jpg . I have done some more work now (did some more practicing and messing with welder settings) and the welds are getting better and the look of the weld itself is now majorly (maybe 70%) limited to the lack of gas as opposed to my welding skill. The bads about each welding option:O/A welder:* +/- $200 over cost of buying argon for the mig. * More difficult to learn. * More difficult to get a pretty weld. Current MIG welder:* Much quicker welding pace. * Potentially unavoidable feeding problems. * Can't be used outdoors. The problems with the MIG welder, to me, all outweigh the problems with the O/A welder. The aluminum welding Ill be doing will consist of intake manifolds with some parts made from thicker .125 aluminum, but will involve tight corners and more complex weld paths that would be more difficult to do well with the fast pace of the MIG welder. I will be limited to a very small working space and work angle because of the feeding problems with the MIG (the only way I could get a decent feed at all with the aluminum wire was to hold it almost completely strait), and wont be able to go around corners, or around places where the end of a pipe mates to a perpendicular flat piece, without stopping and moving the work (which could result in damage to the welds). Because of these smaller welds and tighter turns, having to fly through the welds to keep from burning through seems like a more difficult option (as opposed to having the ability to 'adjust' the heat and slow down or speed up as necessary with the O/A welder, not ignoring the fact that it is much slower in the first place). I weld in a garage and usually weld with the garage door open except on the cold days. Because of this and the breeze that results, I think I would have much trouble MIG welding aluminum (like the problems Ive read about being associated with a leaking gas line or not enough gas flow). I am not really bothered by the extra cost of going O/A, and Im not really bothered by the harsher learning curve (unless it ends up bieng impossible to get a decent looking weld with O/A, which doesnt at all seem to be the case). Basically, everything keeps pointing toward using O/A, especially in the long(er) run after the initial purchase, but before moving to TIG after a few years (another selling point of O/A being that it seems to be better for learning TIG). Of course, yet another selling point of O/A would be its versatility (cutting, brazing, etc... you all know about it) and transportability (will be able to go to different places and weld up stuff, and wont be as limited to position, even with steel, like when being under a car to weld exhaust pieces, etc). With all the encouraging advice like starting on steel and starting without filler, plus advice found on this page ( http://tinmantech.chainreactionweb.com/html/faqs.php ), I am not really seeing any reason to not go O/A over trying (and likely failing) to get the MIG welder working well for me. Somebody please tell me if (and why) I could be exaggerating the difficulties with gased MIG welding, or possibly undersestimating the difficulty of O/A welding. Thanks everyone again.Last edited by JMcDonald; 12-23-2006 at 04:05 PM.
Reply:Hmm, after looking around a bit more at pricing it seems I could even buy an O/A setup for only about 100 or so more than getting argon for my MIG welder. Even better.
Reply:Just my opinion, but out of all the welding processes we have available today, O/A is still the most versatile. It will allow you braze, heat, weld aluminum and steel, and will cut -- all at a relatively low price. Thirty years ago MIG and TIG processes were too expensive for most hobbyist applications, and yet hobbyists did beautiful work with a standard O/A setup and an AC (AC/DC if they were lucky) buzzbox. There still isn't a more useful welding setup than O/A -- BUT you have to spend the time to develop the skill.Even though I have a big Miller Dialarc HF-P Tig machine and a watercooled torch in the shop, I still regularly practice welding aluminum sheet with the torch. It's just as good as the TIG.Last edited by goodfellow; 12-23-2006 at 05:05 PM.
Reply:Just a note, watch the 1 to 7 rule on your acetelyn tank.  Your tank size needs to be 7 times the cubic feet per hour draw of the torch.  Has to do with the acetone mix in the tank.GL
Reply:Originally Posted by fun4now.the tank you got for argon can be swoped out for an oxy. tank
Reply:Originally Posted by DoolittleJust a note, watch the 1 to 7 rule on your acetelyn tank.  Your tank size needs to be 7 times the cubic feet per hour draw of the torch.  Has to do with the acetone mix in the tank.GL
Reply:if you intend to do any cutting you will want a larger oxygin take as it gets used up much faster when cutting. i have a B size acet. tank and an 80cft oxy tank. here is a pic of the setup when it had a 60cuft tank for the oxy. so my oxy tank is a but taller now the acet is about 24" tall and the oxy is now about 36" tallits a nice small hobie set that gives a fair amount of time but going larger would be better if you have the space to keep them as filling price is mostly laber. it was only $5 more to go from filling an 80cuft tank to filling a 155 cft tank even though i got 2X the gas, so the larger tank the more gas you get for the $$. Attached Images summer is here, plant a tree for mother earth. if you dont have time or space, sponcer some one else to plant one for you.feel free to shoot me a PM or e-mail me at [email][email protected] i got lots of time.
Reply:Originally Posted by goodfellow I still regularly practice welding aluminum sheet with the torch. It's just as good as the TIG.Dont take my post with a grain of salt since I'm fairly new at welding.If the welding is for your own car then HF welder will be fine.  The welders are a piece of crap but good enough for tack welding.   Look for a used Hobart/Lincoln/miller mig welder in ebay or craigslist.  But if this was customers cars then I would be really worried.  Even if the weld on top looked solid the underside may not be.  Plus imagine if a part broke off into the engine or the part leaked.  Just not worth the risk.I think someone suggested asking a local welder for help.  Lately to get help with my welding skills I have been working for free at a fabicator shop.   Right now I only get to watch him weld at first but every little bit helps.Look at taking classes at a local class for welding.
Reply:Just my opinion, but out of all the welding processes we have available today, O/A is still the most versatile. It will allow you braze, heat, weld aluminum and steel, and will cut -- all at a relatively low price.thats about as strait forward as it gets. in the price range you have set its also about the only realy doable option you have. and like he said the only down side is it takes time to get good at, but as you are looking at doing aluminum all the processes will take time to get good at.keep in mind MIG can put down a realy nice looking bead that wont hold werth a can of beans, so it will take a bit of practise and lots of distructive testing to inshure you are getting a good solid weld as well as looking good.FWIW: when i decided i wanted to get back into working with metal the first thing i got was an O/A setup. you realy can not get more bang for the $ than with O/A. it dose take some time to get good at but after you lern it any of the other proceses will be much easyer to pick up and get quality welds out of.like duc said the HF welders realy are crap. if you want good consistant welds you will have to get a good consistant welder. there realy is no way around the fact that welding is expensive to do and requires quality equipment to be done right.  on the + side if you spend the $ to get a good welder you will have it for years and get reliable service out of it. so if you look at it from the standpoint of the life of the welder the more expensive ones realy do make up for it in time of service. i have had my Miller MIG for over 5 years and its never seen a repair shop. it welded just as nicely tonight as it did the day i brought it out of the box. summer is here, plant a tree for mother earth. if you dont have time or space, sponcer some one else to plant one for you.feel free to shoot me a PM or e-mail me at [email][email protected] i got lots of time.
Reply:JMcDonald,Just thought you might be interested to know:I have a good friend with that exact same MIG welder.  He's welded a good amount of 1/8" - 3/16" aluminum with it.  And he never switched out the liner either.  But you will need a bottle of Argon.  Also, you'll want to back off the wire tension so that the wire will slip instead of birdsnesting.  If you've done a lot of steel with it already you may need to clean out the liner but chances are good you'll be up and running quickly if you just get some argon.Good luck,Clay
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidIf it's as good as tig, I wanna see pics of it.
Reply:Thanks for all the advice. Im pretty convinced that O/A is definately the way to go under my circumstances. I think I will just get some big tanks and call it good. Ill build a stand as I get closer to crunch time. If I dont plan on doing much, if any, cutting (I have a bandsaw now, and most cuts I do will likely need more precision that cutting will provide), do I buy tanks of the same size? What is the typical flow ratio of Oxygen to Acetylene for welding? Thanks!
Reply:3-5 Psi summer is here, plant a tree for mother earth. if you dont have time or space, sponcer some one else to plant one for you.feel free to shoot me a PM or e-mail me at [email][email protected] i got lots of time.
Reply:Originally Posted by fun4now.3-5 Psi
Reply:Originally Posted by JMcDonaldSo 3 PSI of Oxygen to 5 PSI of Acetylene? Or was that just a range of pressures? And is flow only regulated by the tip / nozzle, and the actual regulators just control the gas pressure in the lines (more pressure of course meaning more flow given the same line / tip size)?And what size ratio of tanks is recommended for, say, 95% welding?
Reply:yep its a range depending on the tip you chose to use and the thickness of the matereal you are using. you will do the final fine tuning with the torch knobs to get the flame you need to do the job.also as i have said befor and doolittle just said go with the largest tanks you can comfortably move and store as about 75% of the fill price is service not gas so filling a 155 cuft tank is only $35 and filling an 80 cuft tanks is $30 so for a little more $ you can get a lot more gas. the gas is not going to go bad so its ok if you only have to fill the tanks once a year or even less often than that. not only do you save by getting much more gas for just a little more $ but you also reduce the # of trips to get it. saving time and auto gas witch can be considerable depending on how far you have to go to get a refill.owning the tanks is almost always a better deal than renting or leasing if yoiu can get the size you need. but it will also depend on the lease price and weather they charge you for testing is you own. i own mine but as they are just swoped out i do not get billed for testing as they just added my tanks into there system so i never get the same tank back. i get whatever one is there at the time, thats why i started making tank covers, some of them look like leftovers from WW1. not the look i want behind my fancy new inverter TIG unit. summer is here, plant a tree for mother earth. if you dont have time or space, sponcer some one else to plant one for you.feel free to shoot me a PM or e-mail me at [email][email protected] i got lots of time.
Reply:Thanks alot for your help guys! With that said, I think I will try to get at least 80 CF tanks, but larger if I can find them. Ill start posting pics when I get going with it!