Mison 20 gas

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do any of you use mison 20? pro's, cons, I've always used C25 and my last trip to get my cylinder filled the guy talked me into trying the mison at a discounted rate. I mostly weld sheet metal and mild steel tubing (.058 wall) and almost everything I find on Mison is for aluminum, stainless or thicker gauge steel (3/8" & up).
Reply:Mison 20 should be 20% Co2, balance Argon. The reason he may have recommended it is if you want to weld in the spray transfer mode, which typically you need at least 80% argon to achieve, as C25 will come close to a spray if you've got a large machine and can crank it way up over 31-32 volts, but it doesn't quite get there with the 75% argon, doesn't sound like you need to be able to transition to a spray transfer with the material thicknesses you've listed. Sounds like he's got some extra cylinders of this stuff and wants to move them, especially since he told you they were cheaper, which by logic they should be the same or a little higher than C25, as argon is more $$ than Co2
Reply:From what I can tell Mison is a mix of argon with a trace of nitrous oxide.  My bet is that if you compared C20 and Mison 20 you would have a tough time telling the difference.   I have been in shops several times where a welding gas salesman will come in with a new gas mix that he wants us to try.  In most cases we have to have the two competing gases side by side to notice a difference.  The word "snake oil" somes to mind.  For awhile some suppliers would refuse to devulge the exact percentages of their mix saying it was proprietry.  That didn't work if they wanted to supply shops welding to codes.
Reply:Right on Lotechman! I sell Welding Equipment and gases for a living, and I've yet to find a case where a 3 or 4 component gas mix was necessary for mig welding mild steel. 99.00% of ALL welding can be done with either straight argon, or various mixtues of argon and co2. My favorite for steel is a C10 or C15, (argon with 10%-15% co2) I just ran some tests with 4 different gases for mig stainless, and a C5 (95%argon 5% co2) performed very well, in pulse, short circuit and spray transfer. I also welded mild steel with 4 different gas mixtures, C-10, C-25, M-5 (which is 95% argon 5% oxygen) and a tri-mix gas for steel which consisted of 90& argon, 8% co2 and 2% oxygen. After welding these samples I cut them and did an acid etch on them to show the penetration profile, the C-10 mixture had the best penetration, C25 and the tri-mix were next, and the Argon Oxygen mixture was the worst. I also ran some mig aluminum comparing straight argon versus a 75% argon 25% helium, the addition of helium really helps on thicker aluminum (1/4"-3/8" and above) Some of the suppliers I compete against really give weld salesman a bad name, when they come in talking up this "new" weld gas that's going to solve all your problems, lower spatter, wet out better, and keep your daughter from getting knocked up. Fortunately a lot of my customers can see through this BS, and if they can't, I've got my hood and gloves in the truck. I've tried posting some pictures of the steel welds that show the penetration profiles of the mild steel welded with the various gases I listed above, but when I attach it, it tells me that my file is too large. Can anybody give me any tips on how I can resize the picture so it will be small enough to go through? Or if anybody's interested, I can also e-mail them direct to you. Sorry for the long post. But this is a topic I'm pretty passionate about.
Reply:SS42768, you're just the man to answer my question with your background in gas. I currently have C25 on my mig which is only used for mild steel. I recently purchased  small tig and would like to use both welders on one bottle of gas. Will tig work well on C25 or can I use Argon on both welders, or will this just not work at all? Thanks for your suggestions.Alan
Reply:ss42768,download and install this free program, Irfanview,http://www.irfanview.com/main_download_engl.htmIt's bugfree and easily allows reducing picture size for posting to boards.It's great to see a sales guy who goes under the hood. I wish there were more like you. I'm eager to see the comparison pics.Regardsedit: Hmm, so I'm a solderer eh? I'm surprised i didn't start as a flux brush cleaner, lol. Great board, I hope to learn a lot.Last edited by wallythacker; 01-14-2007 at 11:10 PM.
Reply:So have any of you used it? like it, not like it, do I need to change the rate of flow as compared to the c25? I haven't used it yet, but I have some stuff I need to finish up this week & would be interested in your thoughts.
Reply:I Went To The W/s House And The Guy Told Me That If I Bought 2 Rolls Of Mig Wire He Would Let Me Try A 40cf Of What He Called M20 Free I Guess Its The Same.i Dont Have Mig Capabilitys Now So I Sadley Declined The Offer,but Thats Cool That A Family Owned Small Place Is That Devoted To There Customers.KISS...KEEP IT SAFE STUPID
Reply:Originally Posted by grumpyjenkinsSo have any of you used it? like it, not like it, do I need to change the rate of flow as compared to the c25? .
Reply:Originally Posted by alanhSS42768, you're just the man to answer my question with your background in gas. I currently have C25 on my mig which is only used for mild steel. I recently purchased  small tig and would like to use both welders on one bottle of gas. Will tig work well on C25 or can I use Argon on both welders, or will this just not work at all? Thanks for your suggestions.Alan
Reply:Stick with the basics, a gas with a name, like "stargon" or "mison", is a gimmick, what's actually in the mix, and what is the purpose?See the following recommendations:  http://files.aws.org/wj/2006/02/wj20...j200602-46.pdfThe following is cut and pasted from Ed Craig's web site.http://www.weldreality.com/MIG_welding_gases.htm"Gas Fact: AGA MISON Gas Mixes. "MISON" developed by AGA. This is a Swedish company based out of Cleveland. AGA designed this gas mix argon with a touch of nitrogen to reduce ozone formation. AGA had great sales of this gas mix in Scandinavian countries. The reasons for the success had little to do with ozone reduction and a lot to do with the reality that AGA was the dominant seller of MIG gases in these countries. When you own the market, any gas marketed aggressively is likely to sell well.The formation of notable amount of ozone will typically occur in an the aluminum or stainless MIG arc plasma where the oxygen formation is influenced by the highly reflection intensity of the bright surface. Typically high weld current and long arc times are required before the ozone smell is noticeableThe story of ozone. The formation of ozone is shown in a TIG arc. The higher TIG weld are plasma temperatures makes this process more prone to notable ozone formation.OZONE FORMS WHERE OXYGEN IS AVAILABLE JUST OUTSIDE THE GAS PLUMEOZONE OCCURS WHEN THE OXYGEN MOLECULES SPLIT.18 INCHES FROM THE ARC OZONE IS 1/10OZONE SMELLS LIKE BLEACHA LITTLE NITRIC OXIDE "NO" MAY HELP SO DOES KEEPING YOUR NOSE OUT OF THEWELD ARC AND USING AN EXHAUST SYSTEM WHICH IS LOGICAL FOR BOTH ALUMINUM AND STAINLESS WELDSOZONE CAN ALSO OCCUR WITH STEEL MIG WELDS HOWEVER THE ARC ENERGY AND ARC ON TIME HAS TO BE SUBSTANTIAL.The welding conditions for notable ozone levels are rare. I have not heard or read of one single case in which medical evidence has shown that aluminum or stainless MIG welding causes medical problems with long term affects. With stainless be more concerned with the chrome reactions than the ozone levelsAGA is promoting it's ozone reducing gas for carbon steels. I have set up MIG applications in over 1000 companies that weld steels and only noticed the smell of ozone once on a four torch spray appliication. Is it right to ADD TO THE INDUSTRIAL GAS CONFUSION and market a product which in reality will have no impact 999 times out of 1000? "BS" is not the ways Swedes typically approach the market however as they createdthis gas mix in amarket they dominate, Sweden, the Swedes bought into this useless mix for welding steels."