Mig weld Question.

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Hello all,I just picked up a new Lincoln 180c mig welder and have a question regarding its performance.  First I will start with a little background.  I have been a hobbyist welder for about 10 years with most of my experience on a MillerMatic 251.  I have considered myself an average welder with the ability to lay a nice bead.  At work we have a Lincoln power mig 200, so I am comparing the 180c to the performance of these welders.I set-up the 180c with some, .35 wire and some C25 gas running it at the suggested setting of 30 scfm, the settings on the unit were wide open on the volts (Max) and 4.5 on the wire speed, I was welding on 3/16" thick mild steel that I grinded prior to welding.  The unit laved a nice bead very comparable to the above models with adequate penetration however my problem is with the weld appearance, there was light splattering all around the weld, not allot but far more than the power mig 200 at work.  In fact I took the same scrap piece to work to lay a bead next to the 180C and it was  noticeably different.  So my question is was this due to the fact that I was running this unit at the upper end of it's capacity, or could I make some adjustments to the wire speed, volts and/or gas to clean the welds up?  Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.  I will try and get some pics loaded up so you gentlemen can see what I am trying to explain.Thank you
Reply:You know, ive often wondered about this as well.  I think these little welders have preset trim, start and burnback settings.  It could be that the arc is a little 'hotter' than the big guys at the same settings (arc could be pinched more).  I do not know for sure, but I was playing with one at the local welder shop (Old Miller) and the arc was definately different (it actually spattered more).  Anybody know if this is a true statement?Various GrindersVictor Journeyman torch200cf Acet. 250cf oxygenLincoln 175 plus/alpha2 gunLincoln v205t tigLincoln 350mpEsab 650 plasmaWhen you can get up in the morning, Its a good day.Live each day like its your last.
Reply:Did you try varing the wire speed until you get a smooth arc?Thermal Arc 185 TigHTP 200 MigCraftsman O/A1942 Bridgeport Mill12 Ton Hyd PressConsew Walking Foot
Reply:I don't know anything about the range on the machine you mentioned, ( I'll look into that after ) but as you increase your voltage the mode of transfer will change.... short circuit being at the lower voltages 18, 19, 20... Globular is like 22 to 26 And the spray is 26 to 32.... Not positive of the numbers but I'm in the ball park. I would say that  you are more toward the globular side to spray... the gas will also have some effect on the mode of transfer as well. Post some pics if you can_________________Chris
Reply:I don't imagine you have an accurate measurement of voltage and amperage on these machines, so that you could ensure you are running the same parameters on these different machines, so it may be that you are simply comparing apples to oranges.Not sure about inverter machines, but for transformer power supplies, the arc, transfer mode, and spatter are affected by the circuit inductance.  You'll see older MIGs with an Inductance knob on the front.  As I understand it, inductance is like a resistance that slows down the changes in current as the wire shorts and burns back.  The huge spike of current during the "short arc" process causes a bit of an explosion that sends spatter flying, and with some added inductance this is suppressed and spatter is reduced.Back in 1983, a power supply designer from PowCon visited the Dimetrics plant where I worked and helped smooth out the performance of the "Metal Beam" pulsed mig by adding an inductor.  As a first try he had me coil up several loops of the ground cable around a chunk of steel to create a crude inductor.  It worked, so later Dimetrics added a small coil inductor to the system.
Reply:Originally Posted by pulserBack in 1983, a power supply designer from PowCon visited the Dimetrics plant where I worked and helped smooth out the performance of the "Metal Beam" pulsed mig by adding an inductor.  As a first try he had me coil up several loops of the ground cable around a chunk of steel to create a crude inductor.  It worked, so later Dimetrics added a small coil inductor to the system.
Reply:Having no idea how they run, I'll fall back on the basics.Pulser may be spot on with adding the inductance. I took a small pipe and wrapped the ground around it 8 times on a small machine recently. It was like night and day. You should try this. Add or subtract wraps and see how it acts. Be sure to keep the wraps tight and tape them down so they won't loosen up.Another issue is probably wire size. The smaller machines are usually optimized for .030. If anything, it will provide a better current density.Wire quality can be another issue. Different machine will like different wires. I have one that will run just about anything, but Anchor Brand Unifill. It will not run that at all. It has hard starts and spatters like there is no tomorrow. My MM210 prefers HB-28 and Pinnacle S-6. It likes the Pinnacle the best. There can be distinct differences in the wire recipes that will translate to different spatter levels on the same machine. It won't matter how you set it, it is the wire. I am sure you can get it figured out...but it is going to take some arc time to get it figured out. Edit:I just re-read your post. I see you are running it at the upper limit. That may be the main cause. How does it run a little lower? Or a lot lower? Is the spatter still the same or better? Some machines get quite a bit rougher on the upper end. The inductance loop described above can help with that.Last edited by DDA52; 01-12-2007 at 07:04 PM.
Reply:The inductance level on the PM 180C is pretty good so I don't consider it an issue. Based on my experience with the unit to this point, if you are going to try an live  off the doorchart you aren't going to discover the units true potential. The door chart settings are putting your voltage more than likely in the mid 19 to 20 load volt range, when your more than likely use to running in the 18 - 19  load volt range with the other units. My suggestion would be to start out with you voltage around I , and work your way slowly toward J if you need to. Of course, you'll have to play with the wire speed too.Understand, the inductance level on the MM 251 is fairly high, so you'll never get the arc of the PM 180C to come close to matching 251.The brand of wire you are running could be a factor too.I've only ran .030 Radnor wire on my 180C to this point. If I get ambitious, I might give an .035 a try in the next couple days. So far though, I am pleased with the results I was able to achieve on 3/16" with an .030.
Reply:One problem I have with these smaller machines is that unless you buy a unit that has a continious motion amperage adjustment control, (no predetermined settings) you may have a hard time dialing in a machine. The bigger the wire the more juice it takes to burn.... if you're having a hard time getting the .035 to run as you'd like drop to an .030._________________Chris
Reply:Originally Posted by lorenzoOne problem I have with these smaller machines is that unless you buy a unit that has a continious motion amperage adjustment control, (no predetermined settings) you may have a hard time dialing in a machine. The bigger the wire the more juice it takes to burn.... if you're having a hard time getting the .035 to run as you'd like drop to an .030.
Reply:So is spatter a bad thing?
Reply:Spatter is bad, it sticks to everything, makes you weld look crappy, clogs the gas nozzle, gets all over your weld table or fixture, sticks to your weld hood lens, gets in your ear, etc.In high production, like automotive, spatter is not acceptable on many welded components, so if the process is not setup correctly and there is too much spatter, people have to remove it by hand before the part can go out the door.  And in these operations, of several thousand welds per day, where every fraction of a penny adds up to big bucks, spatter is wasted filler metal.
Reply:Yup, spatter is wasted metal and a nusciance to clean, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it is bad all the time. It simply means that the machine isn't running quite right or your technique is a little off. The welds are still sound, if you did them right in the first place. If a MIG is setup correctly and all parameters are correct along with technique, there should be very little to no spatter. Fiddle with the machine settings, wire brand can affect spatter, and practice. You'll eventually find where the wire and machine get along.
Reply:I used to weld on train cars and spatter was not allowed. If you have spatter and then paint over it, maybe down the road it will come off to expose bare metal.
Reply:I guess I got going too strong on the bad spatter subject, got thinking about the auto products factory I worked at, and all the problems spatter caused.DDA52 & J M B have some good points here.All MIG welding produces spatter, short arc and globular transfer will produce more spatter and larger diameter spatter than pulsed or constant current spray transfer.Short arc with 100% CO2 produces more spatter than 75% Argon/25% CO2.Improper setup of the machine, wire speed too high, voltage too low, also produces more spatter.I assume the majority of posters here are using smaller MIG systems for short arc transfer mode, so getting some spatter is normal, not bad.
Reply:Here is some photos of the welds I am talking about.IMG]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/superman180/IMGA1321.jpg[/IMG]
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Reply:From what I 've experienced, the 180C will produce a far lower spatter level on 3/16" then you are achieving. It looks like you a possibly using some type of circular oscillation?It's warmed up a little around here. If it holds, I'll try to run a few samples tomorrow evening, and post a few pics of my results.
Reply:Yes I was using a circular pattern when performing these welds.  Also, I had not noticed it before but if you look at the pictures close it almost appears like it has a scale to the weld. I wonder if it may be possible I grabbed the flux core wire instead of the solid core?  I have never welded with flux core but it was my understanding that the appearance of the wire was a gray color and not a copper color?  The wire I am using is cooper in color.
Reply:It warmed up to 45º F around here, so I able to run a few beads on 3/16" with an .035 solid wire. I just ran some horizontal T joints. For .035 I have a roll of Radnor , and a roll of KT Industries, which is a brand the local farm store carries, so I gave both of them a try. I started out with the door chart settings. That didn't last very long though. The voltage was acceptable so I left it alone and increased the wire speed up to around 5. This tightened up the arc  and reduced the spatter level. The results I was achieving was acceptable (good), so I didn't tinker with the machine settings any more beyond this. Obviously, I haven't ran the unit enough yet to be 100% certain, but my initial opinion is that the unit is a little better with an .030.As promised at took a couple pictures, I just wish once though, the pictured weld turned out looking like the real world results. Attached Images
Reply:Thanks Dan!So this would suggest that I need to increase the wire speed to as you put tighten up the arc. And would it be fair to assume that the unit I have is not faulty and it/me just needs to be fined tuned? Also when running the unit at the recomended settings was there more splatter?  The welds you posted are very acceptable by my standards and I would feel allot better about my purchase if I can achieve the same results.Thanks Again.MikePSI will post some more pics as soon as I can get a bottle of gas to continue my testing.Last edited by superman180; 01-20-2007 at 07:16 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by superman180Thanks Dan!So this would suggest that I need to increase the wire speed to as you put tighten up the arc. And would it be fair to assume that the unit I have is not faulty and it/me just needs to be fined tuned? Also when running the unit at the recomended settings was there more splatter?  The welds you posted are very acceptable by my standards and I would feel allot better about my purchase if I can achieve the same results.Thanks Again.MikePSI will post some more pics as soon as I can get a bottle of gas to continue my testing.
Reply:ThanksI cannot wait to get some more gas to do more welding.  I had not given much thought to the weld pattern possibly causing some of my problem, however it does make sense.  As I mentioned I am a hobbyist welder and have tons to learn.  I have an artistic background and love to weld it is like drawing with molten metal.  I have to complement your welding I have seen several of your weld pic through these boards and they are top notch.  Again thanks for the input. And as far as it warming up to 45deg, I can relate, here in California it is mostly warm weather but I live in the high desert and we have been seeing temps as low as 5deg which has put a hurting on all of the pluming in the area, more broken pipes than I care to mention, most people are unprepared for cold weather he in Cali.