Roll Cage Welding and Set up??? ZAP?

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Ok my buddy has a Mustang that I fabbed a lot of turbo stuff for. He had twins and then went to a BIG single. He bought a 6 point Comp. Engineering cage. 1 3/4" and .134 wall. It is DOM. He wanted to weld it with a 110 MIG machine he has, and I was like then why bother putting a cage in it. He said the instuctions state a 130 amp machine or higher. He has a 130 amp machine so he thinks it will be fine. He has not been welding long enough to know. Anyway I told him I should TIG it with my Dyn 300 machine. I need to know and maybe ZAP can chime in here what are some tricks when using a foot pedal set up when welding the struts to the main hoop. In struts, I mean the ones that go back to the spare tire area. Fishmouthing the tube is no problem, I have a roughing Mill for that. I think I am going to be some sort of contortionist I think if I do this. One person said to get to the top part of the hoop to weld the struts on is drill holes in the floor where the hoop plates will reside and actually drop the hoop and the strut assemebly (struts just tacked on) down so you can then do a full weld on the struts to the hoop where the headliner would have been in the way. Do I just sit on a crate and use the foot pedal or get a hand thumb wheel torch. Thanks.  T.J.www.tjsperformance.com
Reply:When I build cages in uni-body cars I do exactly what the other person told you. I mock up the cage, mark the mounting locations on the floor and remove the cage. I use a hole saw and drill into the floor board then I place the foot pad for the cage (if it's NHRA a 6"x6"x.125" piece is required) over the hole. Reset the cage in the car, tack everything, and weld as much as I can while it's in position. Then I break the tacks on the floor plates, pull the plate out of the way and drop the cage through the floor. This is usually good for an extra 4-5" of room on top of the cage.I only have a foot pedal for my TIG and usually have to get creative when welding cages. I have literally been on my back, upside down in a car and have strapped the pedal to my foot and was using the roof of the car. You'll also learn to use your knees and elbows to run the pedal. I'm getting pretty good with using my left elbow to run the pedal and feed filler at the same time.Good luck, let us know how it goes.- Paulhttp://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Nothing wrong with mig welding that rollcage. You have watched too much West Coast Choppers. As for that kind of tig welding, when I do it, I use either a bump switch, or use a rheostat/ slide switch or dial on the gun. Either way, you turn it on and off on the gun. With a rheostat type switch, at least you can adjust the amps when you are inside, and upside down. It's that, or your buddy will have to work the pedal for you....which will be interesting, to say the least. Crank up the heat on the mig, and go.
Reply:Great. Thanks for all the tips, keep em coming. Looks like I am going to be some sort of gumby while doing this. I don't bend like I used to.  T.J.
Reply:Myself..I would not bother with a 110 machine.. If your gonna do it do it right..Tig it as per instructed above..The "drop it thru the floor" system works well..Yeah..you need to use elbows..knees..i've even used my right a$$ cheek at times..You can do it!just like i've stated before..Do a dry run on the weld area before you really weld..make sure you can do what you want from your new found "bent up" position..And another thing...Take inventory of what you'll need before you get all "bent up"Nothings worse that getting into position and realising that you have a contaminated tungestion in your torch..and the fresh ground ones are on the bench.. Take ground tungestions..cups..colletts..etc. and put them in a small box or something so you dont have to get in and out of your "position" 800 times before you lay down one bead...Get everything..filler..anything you may need..and some stuff you may not need and keep it within arms length..you never know.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterMyself..Get everything..filler..anything you may need..and some stuff you may not need and keep it within arms length..you never know.....zap!
Reply:Cutting the roof off works well - It tends to upset the owners a little though
Reply:Originally Posted by Ben WilsonCutting the roof off works well - It tends to upset the owners a little though
Reply:And once it's been rolled once, you don't feel so bad about cutting off the bent panels  Attached Images
Reply:I'm not sure if there is a certain level (8.50 or 7.50 second Quarter mile) at which the cage MUST be tig welded. I know for a fact that the 7.50 level tig is required. Not sure about slower speeds. You may want to find out before welding the cage in. Also, if you cant get to the top of the bar, you can weld 3/4 around and use 2 gussets to certify.
Reply:Originally Posted by SteveMc79I'm not sure if there is a certain level (8.50 or 7.50 second Quarter mile) at which the cage MUST be tig welded. I know for a fact that the 7.50 level tig is required. Not sure about slower speeds. You may want to find out before welding the cage in. Also, if you cant get to the top of the bar, you can weld 3/4 around and use 2 gussets to certify.
Reply:Maybe it's just 7.50 or faster that requires tig. I'm not sure. I will ask my builder on monday.
Reply:The Miller website just put out an article on this very subject this month...http://www.millerwelds.com/education...article96.htmlSure, I can fix it... I got a welder!!!
Reply:Heres an update fresh from the 2007 NHRA rulebook..We must be "Grandfathered" to get past this..Because the 'Hoss always passes tech.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:OK, That's where my thought came from. All of my builders cages are done with 'Moly.
Reply:The 'Hoss is all mild steel..But we have had no problems yet.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:If it gets the trick done, why change?
Reply:Originally Posted by SteveMc79If it gets the trick done, why change?
Reply:Yeah more than likely. Don't they use stick for structural steel welding? If it's OK for buildings why not cars?
Reply:The only reason I can come up with is that buildings dont go 180 mph.. But really its for the ability to see a good weld from a bad one in critical areas..Its so easy to spot a bad tig weld/ mig weld over a stick weld because the flux mess can be contaminating areas thats not seen too well..Thats my story and im "sticking" to it.. ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:HAHAHA, sticking to it. Welding humor, I can't get enough of it.
Reply:Originally Posted by SteveMc79HAHAHA, sticking to it. Welding humor, I can't get enough of it.
Reply:If it were my head, I'd be TIG welding it. It would be a real bummer to go on the roof and find out then that there was a "cold" spot in a MIG weld.
Reply:I do a lot of cages and stuff especially in fox body cars also do a lot of custom turbo setups in them as well Best bet is to use a chromoly cage setup especially that the price between mild steel and chromoly is about the same nowalso those comp engineering kits are a pain, and theyre heavy as hell but if you already have it and your going to use it Do not mig weld it and this is the main reason whyif he has a big single turbo mustang chances are it makes a hell of a lot of power my 93 notch with 408 and single 88mm makes well over 1200hp and that 6 point roll bar that he has is not going to do anything if he plans on running the car at the track he's going to need at least a 10 point cage in the car if the car is running up to its potential (which it should with a big single setup in a mustang)and if you mig weld that 6 point and then later on decide you want to upgrade it a 10 point cage it will not pass tech and not get certd. do it the right way and tig weld it also we're talking about a safety issue here heres another tip on doing the cage for the car if your not going through the floor boards and going to tie into the subrames tack weld the whole cage together and dont tack in the floor plates you should then be able to tilt the cage foward and fully weld all the seams around the top of the main hoop and everywhere else then move the cage back into position and sit on a crate or whatever and weld in the floor plates thats how I do mine everytime and it works great I like to get the cages to fit as tight as possible to the roof and the a pillars etc. it just looks cleaner and sometimes you cant really see the cage until you get close to the car which helps out the sleeper effect a little
Reply:Zap, do you have any pics of the welds on your stick welded cage?Originally Posted by terr1bleoneZap, do you have any pics of the welds on your stick welded cage?
Reply:just wondering how it came out, never seen a stick welded cage. i did some stick on leftover pipe from my cage and it seemed like a pretty good joint.
Reply:Originally Posted by ralphiejantz...especially that the price between mild steel and chromoly is about the same now
Reply:i happen to agree, when i made my 10 point i got estimates on both metals, it was $250 for mild, and $450 for 4130.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabEither you're paying way too much for mild or I want to know where you're buying 4130 for so cheap.I buy A LOT of tubing and 4130 is nowhere near the price of mild.In fact, PMR race cars who builds nothing but 4130 door slammer cars is 3 doors down from me and he buys even more tubing than I do and still can't get it that cheap.Depending on the size, mild is about $1-$2/ft, D.O.M. is $2.50-$3/ft, and 4130 is $4-$6/ft.
Reply:The weight difference is worth it for the price difference. From what I remember, a full cage done in 4130 is a significant savings versus using steel...if you're a serious racer. For a street car, I would use steel.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Originally Posted by MicroZoneThe weight difference is worth it for the price difference. From what I remember, a full cage done in 4130 is a significant savings versus using steel...if you're a serious racer. For a street car, I would use steel.
Reply:Originally Posted by ralphiejantzreally off the top of my head Im not sure exact prices but around here its about the same for mild steel and 4130 per foot hell my good friend that owns a chassis shop wont even do mild steel anymore because the price is so close for 4130 I know a few years ago there was a big price difference but not that much anymore the 4130 is a little more expensive but definately not 3 times more expensive like you stated I get my stuff from my friends shop because he buys in bulk I just do sidework out of my house to make some extra cash, Im a police officer full time so I only get enough material I need from him as I do a new project of job for someone looking for a cage I will ask my friend though the price difference per foot around here
Reply:Im on Long Island its right outside of New York City
Reply:Originally Posted by terr1bleoneZap, do you have any pics of the welds on your stick welded cage?
Reply:I dunno, I would much rather stick weld my cage than mig weld it since your weld lengths are so short that your mig cold start would take up a significant amount of your weld area on each joint.Do those tech inspectors even know the difference between a mig weld deposit and stick weld deposit?  The ones up here only check for the existance of a cage, thats about it!Freelance Fabber91 GMC 3500 Portable welding truckLincoln Weldanpower 8000 gas welderMiller CST 250 Smaw/Gtaw inverterMillermatic 210 gmaw line welderHyperterm plasma