Cast iron to mild steel...use....

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I need to weld a cast iron 3/4 inch round bar  to a 3/4 inch round bar of mild steel,  1 & 1/2 inches long. DO all of you agree I should use 309?  Do you all agree, I should  V  it out, and make a single pass all the way around. And then let it sit to cool?Flywelder2-27-07
Reply:I doube we would all ever agree.   But that is the fun of it.   When welding cast Iron, you need nickle rod.  If its cast steel, you can use 7018.  Mild steel rod does not stick to cast.  Cast rod will stick to mild steel.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I'd go with the 7018 also.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by David RI doube we would all ever agree.   But that is the fun of it.   When welding cast Iron, you need nickle rod.  If its cast steel, you can use 7018.  Mild steel rod does not stick to cast.  Cast rod will stick to mild steel. David
Reply:Braze It!
Reply:Originally Posted by pulserDavid is correct, nickel rod is generally the recommended rod for arc welding of cast iron.  But, it is not a matter of what rod "sticks" to what, it is a matter of cracking at the weld interface.From what I've read, and a little personal experience, arc welding of cast iron is very difficult.  Instead of welding with "Ni-rod", high nickel rod, "braze welding" is may be a better choice.  With braze welding, the base metal is not actually melted, heating is more broad, and thermal stresses are less than arc welding.The issues are that cast iron is hard and brittle, and it has high carbon content that makes the heat affected zone (HAZ) at the cast iron weld interface even harder and more brittle.  The thermal expansion and contration forces from welding cause the brittle interface to crack.  Nickel rod can be successful since it is very ductile and allows the weld metal to stretch and give under the welding stresses, rather than cracking at the interface.  Preheat and slow cooling help reduce the formation of the hard/brittle martensitic microstructure.I assume Zap misunderstood the question when he recommended 7018, since 7018 may be fine for cast steel, it would be a disaster on cast iron.
Reply:Carbon and iron.
Reply:I assume Zap misunderstood the question when he recommended 7018, since 7018 may be fine for cast steel, it would be a disaster on cast iron.
Reply:Cast Iron normally only has less than 2% Carbon content,with a range of 2-4%, I personally wouldn't consider that high. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:And not only that you can weld steel to cast with a tig using 308...see?http://www.weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread...ht=steel+plugs...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I thought you said you used 308 to weld those plugs, zap?http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Nice edit.....http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Me fast!  ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Ya, but I caught ya so you ain't that fast!!! http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabYa, but I caught ya so you ain't that fast!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterCaught what???? ...zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabI don't know but I hope it's not contagious!!
Reply:Originally Posted by MicroZoneCast Iron normally only has less than 2% Carbon content,with a range of 2-4%, I personally wouldn't consider that high.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterHMMMMMMMMMMMM????Why is it that they (Not me) weld cold rolled steel plates to cast iron machine bases at the other end of the shop (stick) with 7018?Works good here.....zap!
Reply:However, I believe you must be mistaken about weld cast IRON with 7018, and I assume that the cast product you witnessed the welding of must have been a cast STEEL.
Reply:How will a picture prove that what you are welding is cast iron?What is the carbon content of your "cast iron"?I don't think you know what you're talking about here, and I think it is a dis-service to others who may be interested in the metallugical facts involved and the reasons why welding cast iron is very difficult and requires special precautions.Did you bother to read the informatin I provided and visit the sites I included?I'm not new to this either, and I do not belive it.
Reply:Miller states 7018 and 7018AC can be used for low, medium and high carbon steels. They also recommend Nickel 55 Cast Iron for cast iron and Nickel 99 for light to medium weight castings. Can it be welded with stick - I think so. Can it be brazed - I think so. Ancient Italians say, "There is more than one way to slice bread."John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Did you bother to read the informatin I provided and visit the sites I included?I'm not new to this either, and I do not belive it.
Reply:OK mythbusters  What I do is low tech, I hit the part with a grinder.  Look at the sparks.  If they are small to non exhistant and red, Its cast Iron to me.  If I get some bright longer tailed yellow sparks, Its cast steel and I weld it with 7018.  Brazing is better for cast Iron.  When I have welded cast Iron IF I can, I pre heat and throw it in the wood stove when I am done.  (more low tech).I have had a lot of stuff brought to me to weld because its "cast".  It is usually cast Steel.  I braize cast Iron when I can.  It makes a better job.I welded an Overhead guard to the counterweight of a forklift with 18,  It didn't hold a day.  I used Ni rod and it is still fine.  A forklift counterweight is the junkyest cast you will find.Pulser, you smart man, a lot of what you said went over my head.    You do have my respect.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by David RPulser, you smart man, a lot of what you said went over my head.    You do have my respect.DavidI have to agree with Pulser.  Yes you can run a bead and think you have welded cast iron with '18 but there is just too much risk of brittle fracture.  It might crack as it cools or crack a year later... You will never know.  There are several sites around on the net with people claiming to weld cast iron with mild steel electrodes or regular wire.   It is not a safe practice.
Reply:I've never had any luck welding cast iron with anything other than ni rod or braze rod.... never with 7018 electrodes. I've never tried anything but those rods. Any bead I did run with 7018 never held for any amount of time. I'm not saying it CAN"T be done but if it is being done I'd like to see it._________________Chris
Reply:Originally Posted by lorenzoI've never had any luck welding cast iron with anything other than ni rod or braze rod.... never with 7018 electrodes. I've never tried anything but those rods. Any bead I did run with 7018 never held for any amount of time. I'm not saying it CAN"T be done but if it is being done I'd like to see it.
Reply:i would us a nickel cast rod on it and v it out run a pass around and have someone there with a chipping hammer there to hit the weld as soon as you are done welding to stess relieve the part so it wont crack weld may not have a good apperence when done but it will work.
Reply:Originally Posted by Flywelder DO all of you agree....
Reply:They also make some pure  cast rods that you use with a torch.  you need some red powdered flux and use it like a brazing rod.  Heat it up, dip in the flux and weld the cast with a torch.  I have some of those rods and use them.Same rules apply, get the whole thing hot and cool S L O W L Y.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by David RThey also make some pure  cast rods that you use with a torch.  you need some red powdered flux and use it like a brazing rod.  Heat it up, dip in the flux and weld the cast with a torch.  I have some of those rods and use them.Same rules apply, get the whole thing hot and cool S L O W L Y.David
Reply:sorry about the confusion.  An Ox acet torch.  Its a pure cast Iron rod.  Nuttin else.  Mine are 1/4".Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Zap:  "I do real life..I dont google answers that somebody wrote down.. "MicroZone:  "He stated that it is an excerpt from a web site...not his own thoughts or words".With regard to the above statements, I enjoy participating in this forum, both for what I can learn from other's knowledge and experience, and for what I can contribute from my knowledge and experience.  As stated earlier, with the copper/steel welding example, I try to stay open minded about welding, not always taking as fact what someone wrote in a book or on a web site, and I like to prove it to myself by trying it.  To me, the proof is in the weld, and ultimately I believe what I see in the weld, not what some one says.  But, since the physical weld evidence is not always available for me to witness and hold in my hands, I draw on the work/research of others, and when there appears to be broad consensus backed by science and logic, I tend to go with that.So when  Zap states that 7018 and TIG with 308 can be successfully used to weld cast iron, this goes against everything I have experienced and read about welding cast iron and welding metallurgy.  And when Zap does not provide any logical reason why somebody he knows can pull off this "magic trick", such as something like: preheat slows the cooling rate thus preventing the formation of hard and brittle martensite, or the high nickel rod used was ductile enough to absorb welding thermal stresses and thus avoid cracking, I have no reason to believe him. I do "real life" as well, and much of my life has been focused on the practice and study of welding and metallurgy.  I started in welding a little late in life, I was 23 years old in 1980 when I graduated from the College of San Mateo in California, with an AS in Welding Technology.  I went on to earn a BS in Welding Engineering from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo CA, and a MS in Metallurgical Engineering from Colorado School of Mines in CO.  99% of my experience has been in automated welding, mostly pulsed processes, developing the parameters and equipment setup for a machine to make repeatable welds.  I worked 2 years  with TIG and MIG pipe welding equipment at Dimetrics (Liburdi), 11 years with TIG, resistance upset welding, and electron beam at Rocky Flats Weapons Plant in Golden CO, 7 years with plasma and MIG for Autoliv Automotive Safety Products in Denver CO, and now 4 years with TIG processes at Los Alamos National Laboratory in NM.  I've seen a few mysterious welding process and metallurgical problems along the way, of which there were a few that I was innovative enough to solve in my own way, but mostly I relied on what I could apply from the research of others.When I provide a quote from someone on some website, I am simply trying to provide what I believe, based on my experience and research, to be valid information on the subject.  When I make a recommendation, I feel it is important to attempt to "back it up" with some logic and science, and often this information in contained in the work of other people who have published in one form or another.Zap:  "Why is it that I always have to go bust these myths???"Thank you, Zap, for taking it upon yourself to document a "real life" test of these various welding "theories".  I know this requires a good deal of effort on your part, and it's always a pleasure to see the photos of your projects.I've been proven wrong before, and I'm open to learning from others.
Reply:Depending upon the service required from the welded joint, one could use a 7018.OK,I'll explain myself before any one gits hot and bothered.As an example I did this today.A  "Chaiwanese quality" drill press table had enough slots broken in it to make it unusable.Students had used one of the vice grip type hold downs .The leverage exerted by this hold down had broken all the the slots in the table. Rather than bin the other wise  serviceable drill press- money is tight -I had only 80 mins ( 2 LESSON SPARES) to repair the tool.A quick repair was to cut a disc of 300mm (sorry 12") M/steel dress it, drill it to suit the hold down bolt and tack weld diagonally in 4 places with  12mm (1/2") tacks of 7016 LH electrodes , because thats what I had available.In this service the disc is just positioned in place safely and the students could do no further damage to it. Please note well,I do not say his is the ideal repair for all cast iron to steel welds. It was horses for courses.As with any welding job ,the work and environment the workpiece will subjected to has a major effect on the choice of consumable.In this case 4 tacks and heat input dispersed around a 1 meter diameter had little effect on cracking  .CheersGrahame
Reply:Originally Posted by pulserZap:  "I do real life..I dont google answers that somebody wrote down.. "MicroZone:  "He stated that it is an excerpt from a web site...not his own thoughts or words".With regard to the above statements, I enjoy participating in this forum, both for what I can learn from other's knowledge and experience, and for what I can contribute from my knowledge and experience.  As stated earlier, with the copper/steel welding example, I try to stay open minded about welding, not always taking as fact what someone wrote in a book or on a web site, and I like to prove it to myself by trying it.  To me, the proof is in the weld, and ultimately I believe what I see in the weld, not what some one says.  But, since the physical weld evidence is not always available for me to witness and hold in my hands, I draw on the work/research of others, and when there appears to be broad consensus backed by science and logic, I tend to go with that.So when  Zap states that 7018 and TIG with 308 can be successfully used to weld cast iron, this goes against everything I have experienced and read about welding cast iron and welding metallurgy.  And when Zap does not provide any logical reason why somebody he knows can pull off this "magic trick", such as something like: preheat slows the cooling rate thus preventing the formation of hard and brittle martensite, or the high nickel rod used was ductile enough to absorb welding thermal stresses and thus avoid cracking, I have no reason to believe him. I do "real life" as well, and much of my life has been focused on the practice and study of welding and metallurgy.  I started in welding a little late in life, I was 23 years old in 1980 when I graduated from the College of San Mateo in California, with an AS in Welding Technology.  I went on to earn a BS in Welding Engineering from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo CA, and a MS in Metallurgical Engineering from Colorado School of Mines in CO.  99% of my experience has been in automated welding, mostly pulsed processes, developing the parameters and equipment setup for a machine to make repeatable welds.  I worked 2 years  with TIG and MIG pipe welding equipment at Dimetrics (Liburdi), 11 years with TIG, resistance upset welding, and electron beam at Rocky Flats Weapons Plant in Golden CO, 7 years with plasma and MIG for Autoliv Automotive Safety Products in Denver CO, and now 4 years with TIG processes at Los Alamos National Laboratory in NM.  I've seen a few mysterious welding process and metallurgical problems along the way, of which there were a few that I was innovative enough to solve in my own way, but mostly I relied on what I could apply from the research of others.When I provide a quote from someone on some website, I am simply trying to provide what I believe, based on my experience and research, to be valid information on the subject.  When I make a recommendation, I feel it is important to attempt to "back it up" with some logic and science, and often this information in contained in the work of other people who have published in one form or another.Zap:  "Why is it that I always have to go bust these myths???"Thank you, Zap, for taking it upon yourself to document a "real life" test of these various welding "theories".  I know this requires a good deal of effort on your part, and it's always a pleasure to see the photos of your projects.I've been proven wrong before, and I'm open to learning from others.
Reply:I and several other welders I know have used a Eutectic 680 stainless rod for welding mild steel to cast iron. Also have brazed,and welded with a eutectic brand cast iron rod. The 680 series rod held great. 7018 is terrible for cast, as shown in zapster's pic- no more explanation necessary.
Reply:pulser, thank you for your professional, well written posts. It holds a lot more weight with me than an ego-driven "because I said so".Zap--love ya man but sometimes you really torque me up!! How do you find hoods that fit? By your own standard of disregarding other peoples experiences,how can we gain anything from yours? You dis on pulser and then post something pretty dumb. 7018 is not the rod for cast and it never has been. Are you to disregard Lincolns site info? I may be wrong but I'm thinkin they may know a bit about welding cast iron. Your test had what, 10" or so of weld? And you broke it with a 20oz hammer and 6 hits? That aint welded my friend. Thats just 2 different types of material flying in formation Do that much weld with 7018 on mild to mild and you wont break it with a 20 pounder!!!By your own reasoning, welding differing types of mat with the wrong rod, I should be able to weld mild steel to alum, right?Guess what pal, it dont work that way in 'real life" Attached Images
Reply:so tell me , zen master zap, where did I go wrong? Were the beads not pretty enough? After all, it was clean---
Reply:Oooook..Lets be civil now...We have reached an agreement that it does indeed work to some extent..So whats the problem?I have no issues with you..And I dont need any...I just take a "Lets see" and put it to the test..I'm sorry my results were not the same as yours..What do you want from me? I try... I really do...  ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I should be able to weld mild steel to alum, right?
Reply:Some of you guys need to relax and not take words so literally. He was simply showing that 7018 can stick the two metals together because it was stated before that it would be a "disaster" and "...I believe you must be mistaken about weld cast IRON with 7018, and I assume that the cast product you witnessed the welding of must have been a cast STEEL."It was NOT to show that 7018 is THE recommended stick for this process. Geesh - stop drinking so much coffee! John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterOooook..Lets be civil now...We have reached an agreement that it does indeed work to some extent..So whats the problem?I have no issues with you..And I dont need any...I just take a "Lets see" and put it to the test..I'm sorry my results were not the same as yours..What do you want from me? I try... I really do...  ...zap!
Reply:Some times it seems that you are convinced that your way is the only way and that just dont fly with me. Again, if I am wrong, I apologize.
Reply:Well, as it happens, I had occasion to do some cast welding today. It was cast to cast and I used 99% nickel rod. Pre-heat was 800deg(approx) and a slow cool off. I peened them with a needler and then pounded them with a chipping hammer for the 'dented' look. They are hinges for a barn door. Attached Images
Reply:Going for the cast look...Wonderful!!!Looks like cast..A little Wrought Iron black paint... ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Tek:  I don't think that is cast iron because you cannot bend cast iron into a hinge eye.  Also it is unlikely that you could cast such a thin section.  Cast iron doesn't often pour into cavities less than a quarter inch thick... for long distances anyway.
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanTek:  I don't think that is cast iron because you cannot bend cast iron into a hinge eye.  Also it is unlikely that you could cast such a thin section.  Cast iron doesn't often pour into cavities less than a quarter inch thick... for long distances anyway.
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanTek:  I don't think that is cast iron because you cannot bend cast iron into a hinge eye.  Also it is unlikely that you could cast such a thin section.  Cast iron doesn't often pour into cavities less than a quarter inch thick... for long distances anyway.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapster...zap!