Advice for beginning TIG welders.

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I would like to give my personal point of view about something that has been bothering me lately.There are many TIG inverters now for sale and many beginners think they can TIG weld without having water cooling and have a very portable machine and cheap too.A TIG welding machine inverter style will cost MORE than a transformer machine generally when they have equal output.So a 200 amp Transformer machine can weld .020-1/4 inch aluminum and steel.The inverter machine, the same cost will only be able to weld 3/16 material.But remember this.The larger an aluminum weldment is, the more heat and the longer it will take.Many online videos show that the INVERTER welder can weld the aluminum plate without water cooling but the plate is only 8 inches long and 3 inches wide!If you are welding a large weldment you will need more heat input and for a longer time.DO NOT GET FOOLED or confused.If you were welding a car sized radiator your torch is going to get VERY hot VERY fastbecause it will take more heat input and for a longer period of time.You will have to weld MANY inches of weld and you will not want to quit and have to reheat the entire weldment.Remember the Inverter welding machine will cost MORE money than a transformer TIG welding machine of the same output, and it will not have water cooling.There is a reason the Miller Syncrowave is the KING and the Lincoln 250 Syncrowave are commonly seen in shops that do a lot of TIG welding.Maybe it will all change but not yet. Maybe someday the Inverter machines will take over and cost the same or less. But it has not happened yet.And the inverter machines still break down OFTEN. If you do not believe me Google it.AWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:Can't go wrong with a good old transformer TIG...
Reply:Umm, I disagree to a point.   Inverters use less electricity so in the long run they are cheaper.I was gouging with my v 350 using a 5/32 electrode at 300 amps.  I popped a 40a breaker twice doing the whole job.Why will a 200 amp inverter weld thinner than a 200 amp transformer?I totally agree, I can weld one stick of filler with an air cooled torch.  Then the torch is too hot to hang on to, so I bought a $600.00 water cooler kit.  I am buying a second one.Arcmaster 185 with water cooler and wp20Invertec V350 pro soon to have water cooled torch.I have one customer I am trying to convince that I tig everything.  Its more hour$ for both of us. DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomI would like to give my personal point of view about something that has been bothering me lately.There are many TIG inverters now for sale and many beginners think they can TIG weld without having water cooling and have a very portable machine and cheap too.
Reply:Donald, Donald, Donald.Every manufacturer will be phasing out transformer machines. You may as well get used to it. The new stuff coming out even you will like.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:I see two different things here.  Inverters vs TransformersThe need for a water cooled torch."Inverters, they blow all the time"  I have seen that here before.  All my welders are inverters except my SP100.  I have since purchased a Miller Passport, the only blue machine I have.   I must admit, it does not replace the old lincoln, no machine welds exhaust pipes better than my SP100.  None have broken or had to be sent back.  Ever.Lincon V350 Pro.  Weighs 83 lbs.   100% duty cycle at 300 amps.  Max out put 425 amps @ 60% duty cycle.  Max voltage on constant voltage 45.  Touch start tig, gas through dinse. This thing has its own set of balls.  I have two. (V350)DavidLast edited by David R; 11-14-2011 at 06:59 AM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomSo a 200 amp Transformer machine can weld .020-1/4 inch aluminum and steel.The inverter machine, the same cost will only be able to weld 3/16 material.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonDonald, Donald, Donald.Every manufacturer will be phasing out transformer machines. You may as well get used to it. The new stuff coming out even you will like.
Reply:I'm not so sure you can count inverters to being just equal to transformer machines.Especially aluminum.  The inverters often have much higher frequency capabilities which focuses the arc and actually allows it to do more with less.  At the higher amps, Miller 350 - 1/2" Aluminum and 5/8" Steel.  The Dynasty 350 is 5/8" aluminum and 5/8" steel. And No, I've never welded 1/2" aluminum, so I have no frame of reference other than Miller's recommendation.  I'd have pulled the MIG gun out at about 1/4".  Give me a wp20 and a solid 250Amps please.BTW, ESAB makes the TIG Caddy (220V only) which has a water cooler that if I read the numbers right is something like 15lbs filled with water.  Making the water cooled version under 48lbs (33lbs for power supply).  I haven't seen it, but I imagine a significant amount of plastics.  Miller's Coolmate 1 is more like 35lbs.  Bottom line, a portable 220Amp setup, if you can find a 220V plug (16 Amps slow blow fuse).Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Just saw the Caddy TIG 2200 at Fabtech. Quite impressive, very light but only 20% duty cycle @ 220A.BTW, they are still made in Sweden; all of the other machines that I saw there, including the Migmasters, are made in Poland. I had heard that some of their machines were made in the US but I didn't see any there.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:inverters in my experience are far more reliable, use less power close to half if not more, draw less amps, are smaller more portable, lighter, have more adjust ability, better for aluminum, and even with a full water cooled set up its still portable discluding the dynasty 700 (wasn't really a portable system and just wasn't convenient enough for me)so i got rid of it and bought a dynasty 200dx which is plenty for what i do and really light and portable setup only reason i got the 700 was because i got it at auction for 5500 and just sold it for 8700 so my 200dx was practically freemiller xmt 304 w/ 22a feederdynasty 200dx tig runnerspeedglas 9100xvictor journeymen O/Aesab shadow 5000 shape cutterClausing Drill Press setAVIA d.r.o. milling machine ercolina ercobender 76baileigh hsp-66mJD2 notchmaster
Reply:Originally Posted by razerThis doesn't compute.  Maybe you could break it down for me.Oh, you're not talking 200 amps for 200 amps, you're talking about the $$ that would get you a 200amp transformer won't get you a 200 amp inverter?
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonDonald, Donald, Donald.Every manufacturer will be phasing out transformer machines. You may as well get used to it. The new stuff coming out even you will like.
Reply:An AC inverter is two DC inverters, one for + an one for -  That is how  you can change the wave balance.Popping a 50 amp breaker using an OLD 300/330 Hobart tranformer trying to weld 1/4" aluminum.  It would do it, but I had to keep resetting the  breaker.   Water cooled torch.Using my arcmaster  185 on the same circuit to finish the same job.  It took all it had, but did it.  Just a note, my Arcmaster will put out a tested 199 amps on AC or DC tig.    I think its a 200 in a 185 case.That is the difference I can see.  I will see if I can find the thread.Water cooler is just an option like it always was.DavidEdit, I have had this machine 5 years.  Not even a hiccup.  I have gone way past its duty cycle and never had it overheat or shut down.  Here is the linkhttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=13076Today I ordered a Lincoln Coolarc  40 to attach to a lincoln  v350 pro.  It already has a gas valve in it.Last edited by David R; 11-18-2011 at 05:44 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Is the point that a water cooler will just add more cost to the inverter, or that noobs don't think a water cooler is needed?  It should not be an issue unless some transformers come with integrated coolers.  I know that some did in the past, but what about more recently, and if so, is that really a factor?Water coolers are not that expensive, and not super hard to build."Great spirits have always encountered violent oppostion from mediocre minds."  --  Albert Einstein
Reply:Originally Posted by Silicon-basedJust saw the Caddy TIG 2200 at Fabtech. Quite impressive, very light but only 20% duty cycle @ 220A.BTW, they are still made in Sweden; all of the other machines that I saw there, including the Migmasters, are made in Poland. I had heard that some of their machines were made in the US but I didn't see any there.John
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomYes that may happen, but the water cooling issue will still need to be addressed.
Reply:This discussion is all over the place.Total loss water cooling works fine even if your water is hard (lots of minerals) the power cable and torch are replacable.I bought two used lincoln v275s welders for about $1000.  They are not ac or pulse and the pedal was extra and new.  In tig mode it has enough power off an electric dryer outlet to make the 17 air cooled torch too hot to handle.  My transformer 600 pound or more monster with ac but not even clean penetrate knob was much less $. It does have a water solenoid.  On the other hand the v275s has an arc force knob for stick mode and the whole volt/amp curve changes for stick vs tig.  When using tig on the transformer one it behaves like doing tig in the stick mode on on the inverter one.  It took me a while to get used to not being able to get more heat by holding the tungsten closer but you loose the touch start feature in the stick mode.Last edited by fran...k.; 11-19-2011 at 10:10 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by fran...k.This discussion is all over the place.Total loss water cooling works fine even if your water is hard (lots of minerals) the power cable and torch are replacable.I bought two used lincoln v275s welders for about $1000.  They are not ac or pulse and the pedal was extra and new.  In tig mode it has enough power off an electric dryer outlet to make the 17 air cooled torch too hot to handle.  My transformer 600 pound or more monster with ac but not even clean penetrate knob was much less $. It does have a water solenoid.  On the other hand the v275s has an arc force knob for stick mode and the whole volt/amp curve changes for stick vs tig.  When using tig on the transformer one it behaves like doing tig in the stick mode on on the inverter one.  It took me a while to get used to not being able to get more heat by holding the tungsten closer but you loose the touch start feature in the stick mode.
Reply:I don't see a problem in my comment above.  It seemed to me the discussion was at small over the sholder inverter and water cooler hence I jumped in with total loss reminder.  From the weldcraft website "The WP-26 hand-held air-cooled torch series offers maximum performance and dependability on continuous, heavy-duty welding applications."I aquired a huge bernard air cooled torch somewhere it even has to use a lagrer power lug, I never used it.  The three hoses of a water cooled torch, even the cheapest material type have a flexibility advantage.  It is possible to get water cooled torches with gas knobs for those with no solenoid.  The gas cylinder and the hose (water, garden hose) only need be near the work and the welder can be as far away as the pedal will allow or if uning no pedal as far away as the leads allow.Last edited by fran...k.; 11-19-2011 at 12:03 PM.
Reply:He gotcha.Donald woke up from his drug induced coma and typed some of his usual BS, and now he's got everyone disputing everything.Just a tip.You can take about 10% of what Donald says as gospel.  The other 90% are generally just ramblings from a guy who's lost touch with reality.  The problem is, that the new guys can't distinguish what's what.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:This forum is set up so you only have a short time to edit.  I read the thread about why it is that way.  In some of the other forums I am on I would have been able to at least edit the lincoln sincrowave to whatever registered trademarked name would be appropriate.  I will kind of agree with the gist of the first post at least for the 17 sized tig torch and getting hot.  I also think the rating of the water cooled torches is just that the rating of the torch and not the torch and power cable.
Reply:I run a WP-20 at full throttle with a A/BP 330 and it goes to 425 amps with no issues..Unless someone turns the water off....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by fran...k.I don't see a problem in my comment above.  It seemed to me the discussion was at small over the sholder inverter and water cooler hence I jumped in with total loss reminder.  From the weldcraft website "The WP-26 hand-held air-cooled torch series offers maximum performance and dependability on continuous, heavy-duty welding applications."I aquired a huge bernard air cooled torch somewhere it even has to use a lagrer power lug, I never used it.  The three hoses of a water cooled torch, even the cheapest material type have a flexibility advantage.  It is possible to get water cooled torches with gas knobs for those with no solenoid.  The gas cylinder and the hose (water, garden hose) only need be near the work and the welder can be as far away as the pedal will allow or if uning no pedal as far away as the leads allow.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterI run a WP-20 at full throttle with a A/BP 330 and it goes to 425 amps with no issues..Unless someone turns the water off....zap!Weldtec offers their Speedway torches for heavy duty use.The 20 Series Speedway is "rated" for 320A, not the 250A of most 20 series torches.I suspect Zap is getting by with higher amps because he's using tapwater as coolant vs coolant from a reservoir.  Constant supply of much cooler water.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:I find it pretty simple.  If you keep burning your hand from the torch, you need water cooling.  Hobbyist or weldor for a living.  If you can afford the time to wait for the torch to cool off, then go with that.  If its your profession, then $600 to $1,000 for a good cooler and torch are no big deal.  I am getting the next bigger torch from the WP 20 so I can use bigger gas lenz on stainless.  If it does not work out, the torch head is only  a few bucks.I have run the WP20 at 220 amps and things do get hot.  I think it out runs my current water cooler.  Once the hoses get hot, they start to distort and stretch.  Not much I tig that hot.  There are other processes.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by fran...k.I have a new 25 foot power chord for my 20 model but elected to use the one I repaired and it seems around 150 not much more useful heat comes out for welding just warmer discharge water.  In hind sight I should have cut it down to half or 12 feet.  The copper hollow braid inside that power chord is really tiny.  Not that much bigger than a kitchen match and way less than a pencil.  You  didn't state the length of the power cable.