5G Pipe Weld Test Questions/Help

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Greetings,I'm taking a pipe test with the following requirements:8" sch 40 open rootE7010 1/8" rod , all down hill5G positionIt's for an out of town employer and I will be using a local test lab.  They will then mail the test coupon to the company that would hire me.The company works on natural gas lines and such.  Questions I have are do you cap with stingers?  Or do you weave a single pass on the cap?  I've taken lots of welding tests before but it's been a long time since I've done any downhill pipe and can't remember.3/32" gap?  Amperage setting around 90?  I could use some memory refreshing as I've been TIG welding for the past several years.  Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.
Reply:I work for a pipeline company and all we do right now is Natural Gas work. Our test is very similar, except its 6G,12" pipe and 6010 all downhill. You can either do a two stringer cap, or a small weave, the groove isn't too large. If you don't feel comfortable doing a single cap, then try the stringers.
Reply:Thanks for the tip.  Do you set your gap at 3/32" ?  Or 1/8"?  Like I said, it's been a long time since I did any downhill pipe welding and need to have my memory refreshed.  I assume E7010 runs very similar to E6010?
Reply:Weaves vs. stringers is going to be outlined in the WPS, you need to make sure to follow that.  Different companies have different allowances.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:X2 what sn0border88 said.
Reply:7018 downhill ?
Reply:The rod is E7010, not E7018.  Thanks for all the replies.Just wondering if it's possible to put a single cover pass, downhill with 1/8" rod on sch 40 pipe?  I'd feel more comfortable using two stringers of maybe a 5/32 rod for the final pass?
Reply:They should tell you what is allowed for the cap.. Just ask them :]
Reply:I'm taking the test at an independent test faciltiy out of state so if it's not spelled out in the WPS, I'll probably put a single cap pass on it.Freaking 5G downhill has me worried as it's been a long time.  I've been welding uphill to ASME code for years and downhill has me worried??  I can never get used to taking these tests.  I've taken dozens of them over the years and it still stresses me out to the max, especially since I really want this job.
Reply:[QUOTE=pipenatgas;575628]The rod is E7010, not E7018.  Thanks for all the replies.wow  i got me some case of css,,,sorry
Reply:Are you testing to API 1104 or ASME IX? This will make a differance in how you weld your cap and root passes. ASME allows 1/8" reinforcement on the cap and root, while API 1104 only allows 1/16". API 1104 has a 1/32" each side of weld groove cap width allowance as well, ASME does not stipulate a final weld width of the cap. You never said which E7010.....E7010G, E7010P1, E7010HYP+, or even a 70+ (which is actually an 8010 rod). Each has its own good side and bad side. The root gap can be slightly smaller with a thinner landing using the E7010 HYP+ its a good running electrode. The E7010G's are a little more flaky to me anyhow. They will throw the sparks and dig like a backhoe so be carful when crossing the bottom out of position, keep the electrode holder ahead of the puddle, this will limit the digging effect. If your hands (stinger/electrode holder) is behind the puddle it will run hotter and act more like an arc gouger not as bad but still not desirable. What grade is your testing coupon? SA-106-B, 5L X48, X-52, X-56...?Be sure and grind your root pass clean...not to deep but clean all wagon tracks (undercut) using the E7010 type electrodes are very bad at leaving slag in wagon tracks.
Reply:To ease your mind some...if you have been testing under ASME the qualification criteria under API 1104 is more lax.......API 1104 coupons are 1"wide X 9" long v.s. ASME 1-1/2" wide X 6" long, API bending shoe radius is based on approx 4" od where ASME is 2" od. API only requires coupons to be somewhat bent in a U shape....ASME requires a full 180 deg U. All of this equals less stringent effects on the weldment under API 1104. You will have a tensile nick break and or a tensile pull.....it must snap outside the weld bead heat effected zone to pass. The nick break is to look for trapped slag, or lack of fusion......weld as many coupons to pratice as you can before the test.....nothing upsets the Inspector more than a welder showing up to test and has not practiced....they can tell. Relax and breath....thats the one thing you need to do, stay calm. Even if you get past the test you will have X-Ray breathing down you neck every day anyhow.....so get used to being watched. Welcome to the PipeLine world.....Good Luck.
Reply:I must add that your hand position should lead your electrode from the top to just below the say...4 o/clock position, then it should be 90 degs at the least, as you cross the bottom, go ahead and weld past the dead bottom about 3".....you should criss-cross the bottom with you passes. Same with the top button.....stagger your starting place to limit the size of the start button (some inspectors will not allow grinding down the button)........What type of welder are you using? I can give you some starting points for amp and volt settings.....each welding mach and welder are differant. But a general starting point is always good.......arc length is also very important on the downhill 5G weld. To much and welcome bug holes not enough and the weld puddle will cover up the arc.......When the heat, speed, arc gap are all correct the electrode will do the work, not much electrode movement will be required but most pipliners want that stacked dime look, which will require a slight whipping motion.......I prefer tight ripples, good weldment profile and to just fill the groove to the code allowance, nothing more or less.Last edited by Awelderiam; 11-19-2011 at 02:34 PM.
Reply:All settings are with factory mach settings no rolled racksSA-200, 1/8" Electrode, 190-120, 40-45, always increase or decrease by 5.SA-200, 5/32" Electrode, 190-120, 70-85, these are just starting points.300 amp mach, 1/8", 85-120, 60-70300 amp mach, 5/32", 120-190, 60-80I myself have never welded anything on pipe using the Max setting. Outside of welding 7/32 or 1/4 Lo-Hydrogen you should never be on maxine....if you have to go there for 3/16" rods you need new brushes.A young green pipe welder asked an old salt one day...How can I make the weld on the bottom of the pipe look like the top.......The old salt replied....Screw up the top......
Reply:I can't thank you guys enough for the help.  the test is to API-1104 and is 8" sch 40 in  5G with E7010.  That's all I know for now until I get to the test facility.  I have both 1/8" and 5/32" rod to work with.  Not sure about the rod prefix.  I've welded with E7010 before but it was to ASME code and uphill.  I've also taken the API test before but it was with E6010 and I passed it but it was 6G and this test is 5G.  That was many years ago so I'm rusty with downhill.Gap?  I'm going with 3/32" ?  Tacks?  Is it spelled out on the WPS?  Four half inch tacks?Amps?  I figure 90.  (I think they will let me dial my amps in with a practice coupon but not sure)Cap?  I'd really like to do two and weld it out with all 1/8" but concerned the company many frown upon that as it's NOT being bend tested/nick break tested at the testing faciltiy.  They are mailing it back to the company instead.This is just a "get your foot in the door" test as they are requiring training before they will let me weld on the nat gas lines.  I'd also have to pass (after tutoring and practice provided by the company) all the API-1104 tests within 18 months.  I'm an experiecned welder so I know I can do this with minimal training.  I just really want his job and still hate these tests after all these years.Are there any downhill videos I can watch?  anything on youtube?  The stuff I'm finding is pretty hard to see technique  and tech info is lacking.  Thanks again for all the help.  Test is right after thanksgiving.  Need this gig bad.
Reply:I have the API-1104 code book and noticed that on the cap.  1/16" reinforcement is NOT very much so I will have to watch that one.  Flush to just overfilled is my goal.  That's why I'm leaning towards a single cap with 1/8" rod rather than risking putting too much on with a 5/32" rod.  THANK YOU!  Keep the tips coming as I value all of them.  Need some youtube video suggestions also.  This forum is great. Originally Posted by AwelderiamAre you testing to API 1104 or ASME IX? This will make a differance in how you weld your cap and root passes. ASME allows 1/8" reinforcement on the cap and root, while API 1104 only allows 1/16". API 1104 has a 1/32" each side of weld groove cap width allowance as well, ASME does not stipulate a final weld width of the cap. You never said which E7010.....E7010G, E7010P1, E7010HYP+, or even a 70+ (which is actually an 8010 rod). Each has its own good side and bad side. The root gap can be slightly smaller with a thinner landing using the E7010 HYP+ its a good running electrode. The E7010G's are a little more flaky to me anyhow. They will throw the sparks and dig like a backhoe so be carful when crossing the bottom out of position, keep the electrode holder ahead of the puddle, this will limit the digging effect. If your hands (stinger/electrode holder) is behind the puddle it will run hotter and act more like an arc gouger not as bad but still not desirable. What grade is your testing coupon? SA-106-B, 5L X48, X-52, X-56...?Be sure and grind your root pass clean...not to deep but clean all wagon tracks (undercut) using the E7010 type electrodes are very bad at leaving slag in wagon tracks.
Reply:I'm fixin to go test for a pipeline myself and it's a 12 on 12 butt 6g and a 12 on 12 branch. Most tests I've seen were 1/8 5p+ root and the rest is hyp+ mostly welders preference on size of rod but is hyp. I myself don't like that hyp. I've been practicing since sept n the 5/32 rods are puttin a whoopin on me. I have no problem with the 1/8 rods.Twi$ter
Reply:Be careful to not go to hot on the 5/32" electrodes......there is a fine line go over it and that rod will whip you.......as far as testing, in the pipline world you'll test almost every job.....so relax and get used to it. The key to the branch is fitup........practice......practice.....practice..  ..A young green pipe welder asked an old salt one day...How can I make the weld on the bottom of the pipe look like the top.......The old salt replied....Screw up the top......
Reply:For my company its a 2 3/8" .218" wall 6G and 8 5/8" .500", 6G 5+  all the way out.....then a 2 3/8", .218" 6G, and 8" .500" 6G E7016 uphill bead and E7018 out........all to ASME IX.A young green pipe welder asked an old salt one day...How can I make the weld on the bottom of the pipe look like the top.......The old salt replied....Screw up the top......
Reply:If your having a hard time putting a cap on with 1/8 or 5/32 I would suggest to practice ,practice ,and practice some more because after you make your test and have to work on the line using either of those rods you are going to get left behind real qiuck .All the experienced hands are using 3/16 there are enough guys looking for work they will replace you real fast.Find someone experienced and watch and learn all the advice you get here maybe will help but you need real hands on to help .
Reply:It all depends on what diameter of piping your welding on and or the what ranges the WPS calls out. I would not allow the use of 3/16" rod on anything less that 12" piping. But you are right just when you think you have it whipped 3/16" jumps up and kicks you. HYP+ is not to bad......70+ and E8010G are wicked bad rod.......if you dont have your act together.A young green pipe welder asked an old salt one day...How can I make the weld on the bottom of the pipe look like the top.......The old salt replied....Screw up the top......
Reply:Now you are getting me worried.  I've used E7010 on boiler tubes before and thought it welded very similar to E6010.  You're telling me it does not?
Reply:The deposition rate using E6010 is slower than E7010, its not going to be that much differant so dont freak out about it, but there will be a slight differance in how it handles the open groove. The root pass will be thinner using the E7010 than it will be with E6010, what I mean by this is that it will not stack inside as easy, which is not that bad of a deal. Just watch being to thin on the root, flush is ok but cant have any suckback. The hot pass should push the root a little. Be sure and read the WPS, this will tell you what diameter electrode to be used on the hot pass....for my company it is always one size larger than the rod used for the root. Also the WPS will dictate what type cap pass you run, stringer vs weave. This is a API 1104 requirment to show the bead placement for the weldment. If it does not just ask the tester I may add here that it will also depend on the piping thickness if 3/16" electrodes are to be used. Since you are testing on 8" sch 40 .322" I would not think 3/16" would be needed for the cap pass.A young green pipe welder asked an old salt one day...How can I make the weld on the bottom of the pipe look like the top.......The old salt replied....Screw up the top......
Reply:The company guy said he supplied multiple rod sizes to the remote test faciltiy and the choice was mine on what to use.  This is a 'see if he can weld' test as they will require company training before being allowed to test fro the full battery of API-1104 tests.  My main questions now are:1) 8" sch 40......can I weld it all the way out with E7010 1/8" rod without using stringers?2) If so, how many passes?  I'm guessing FOUR passes total?  This is 1/8" Rod all the way out. all downhill.Thanks
Reply:If you don't have the same pipe to practice with, see what they get for a few feet in your area or ask here if someone will sell enough for a few coupons. Check MULTIPLE metal suppliers as prices for identical items have a WIDE range and that's no joke!  Some suppliers may have cutoffs they'll sell cheaper, so tell them why you need them and ask! If you can't get 8" then 6" may work for you to practice on.Yeah, it's expensive but you can knock out a few and bend test coupons yourself before you test for the job. At the welding school where I worked, if we could duplicate the test for a student we'd have them run a few before going to test for a job. Some would even come back and pay for booth time (included metal) to prep for later tests.Originally Posted by pipenatgasThe company guy said he supplied multiple rod sizes to the remote test faciltiy and the choice was mine on what to use.  This is a 'see if he can weld' test as they will require company training before being allowed to test fro the full battery of API-1104 tests.  My main questions now are:1) 8" sch 40......can I weld it all the way out with E7010 1/8" rod without using stringers?2) If so, how many passes?  I'm guessing FOUR passes total?  This is 1/8" Rod all the way out. all downhill.Thanks
Reply:Originally Posted by AwelderiamYes, you can. I would think it will take more than 4 passes though. 8" sch 40 is .322" wall. If you cut the bevels alittle less than 32 deg that would help. And use a tight fitup, less than 3/32" with this tight of a gap use a 3/32" land. Play around with the heat and make sure you key hole while running the bead.
Reply:Any fab shops nearby? Can't hurt to ask them either, maybe swap some welding for some practice on what you want?Good luck!
Reply:Originally Posted by pipenatgasThanks.  I think they provided enough pipe for me to do a practice test.  Like I said before, I'm an experienced pipe-tube welder but mostly power plant stuff to ASME IX code which is uphill.  I should be ok with all the help I got here on this forum.  I'd practice but I have no place to do it as I've been out of work and dont have a welding machine.  No schools available within 100 + miles of the house either.  I'll let you guys know how it worked out and again I thank you for helping an old welder out.  Trying new things in this trade is intimidating even with 25 years of experience.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbead7018 downhill ?
Reply:I would not recommend letting anyone ever see you doing that on anything other than items for you.......The electrode classification numbers stamped on each electrode stipulate position and current ect....not to mention the qualified welding procedure, which will outline repair procedures...if you are caught performing anything not allowed by the electrode classifications or WPS your qualifications and job most likely will be over. This might be something you feel comfortable with but I would not suggest anyone reading this that is serious about being a welder try to apply this. Bad JuJu.....JMHO.A young green pipe welder asked an old salt one day...How can I make the weld on the bottom of the pipe look like the top.......The old salt replied....Screw up the top......
Reply:i get what yor saying and i under stand all the codes and blah blah but just cause the papers say so dosent mean you cant and vise versa just take an architech for instance yeah they can can make sweet drawing and make it look good on paper but it doesnt always work in the feild  ive never got shut down on ajob from running down hill i think what happens is people are taught one way and are scared of change and just because some one says you cant do something they get a mind set as far as being a serious welder my father held sevral certs including but not limited to structrual, pipe line  and yes he folloew the codes when needed to but he also want affraid to go out side the box either and i never seen on of his weld fail besides all cross crountry pipeline is done downhill but thats a whole nother fight between the pipe world and structral ....lol jmho any way have a good turkey dayLincoln Pro Core 125Lincolin sp 100Miller Big 40Lincoln Idealarc SP250miller matic 212http://www.facebook.com/hdwelding?sk=wallwww.hdweldingbeds.com
Reply:heimbuck... we all know there is more than one way to skin a cat... but when it comes to welding under a WPS, ya don't mess with the procedure, because should ANYTHING happen, and i mean ANYTHING... even if it wasn't the straying from the WPS that caused the "anything," the lawyer is going to think otherwise.We live in a brave new world.  Lawyers run the show.  Do not doubt the ability, or desire, of a lawyer to go after your house, your bank accounts, your vehicles, your machines and equipment, or anything else.  Nothing is sacred in their world, only winning on behalf of their client.
Reply:Benz yeah every one is more sue happy these day thats for sure  and we all could go on for days arguing over all of this so I guess well just agree to disaggre for our sanity lol no since to beat a dead horse so on the lighter side of things happy holidays to every oneLincoln Pro Core 125Lincolin sp 100Miller Big 40Lincoln Idealarc SP250miller matic 212http://www.facebook.com/hdwelding?sk=wallwww.hdweldingbeds.com
Reply:To have a discussion about welding E7018 downhill should be a quick one. Dont. As was said the WPS is not a suggestion, not even close. The classification on the electrode itself will tell the user (if the user knows what it means) how to use the electrode. This again is not a sugggestion, since all data is based on the fact that the electrode was used as per the WPS, or SFA specifications. The point was brought up about lawyers......this not applies to your money, tools, ect...but in a criminal court as well.....say you weld a bumper using your F-'the WPS's or electrode specs cause my uncle joe bob taught me how to use a E7018 dowhill while using reverse polarity. It makes a slick small width weld looks almost like a tricked out mig weld....except when the bumper is put in use it cracks.....allows a portion of the hitch to fling off and decapitate a standerby....now the welder is liable for manslaughter. Case closed.....there is one piece of advise that I can stress to all wanting to weld......YOU ARE LIABLE FOR THAT WELD>>>>FOREVER!!!!! No one cares if you are a beginner or a pro that weldment is yours, hence the need for liability insurance. Dont mean to souund like a a-hole but on a forum like this anmyone could be reading this information, the best methods should always be taught...JMO.A young green pipe welder asked an old salt one day...How can I make the weld on the bottom of the pipe look like the top.......The old salt replied....Screw up the top......
Reply:I know welding......not spelling....sorry.A young green pipe welder asked an old salt one day...How can I make the weld on the bottom of the pipe look like the top.......The old salt replied....Screw up the top......