If you had to choose, Which one ?????

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I'll be buying a new tig machine soon but I can't make up my mind on which one.Choice 1 - Lincoln Precision Tig 225Choice 2 - Miller Syncrowave 200Both are great machines, both say their machine is better than the other.Both are around the same price out the door with a tank of argon.If you had to choose between these two machines only, which would you choose and why ????  I'm driving the guys at Airgas crazy and they really dont sound very knowledgeable either. I've never tig welded before but I dont want to buy a cheap feature-less machine and regret it later. I have learned in the past that a good tool makes learning that much easier. Which machine would you choose ????ThanksBrian
Reply:I just compared the two models. To be honest they really seem very comparable. They give goofy duty cycles. Lincoln gives the amperage output of 90 amps at 100% while Miller lists their amperage output at 150amps at 40%. So without doing the math it initially appears miller has the advantage, but if you figure out the curve they are probably pretty close.I would like to say that the Lincoln would be the choice just because I like Lincoln, but in reality, the Lincoln has an output of 230 amps while the Miller only has 200amps.SO, based on the fact that they are almost identical machines, about the same price out the door with argon, and you are FORCING me to choose between the two, I go Lincoln for that extra 30amps. I can't give you any other reason to pick either one. Oh wait, yes I can. What is more prevalent in your area? Blue or Red? Parts availability and repair tech familiarity goes a long ways. Ok, so there you go. That's my take on it.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:My responce is the same as Joker11, the more I look at the numbers, the more I want a Lincoln 275 instead of the Miller 250, of course you're looking at slightly different machines but I'd still give Licoln the edge. They really do need to list an industry standard duty cycle, 100%, 80% 60% 40% and 20% so one could better compare machines without having to account for curves and fans, and all that other junk.
Reply:Originally Posted by Joker11I just compared the two models. To be honest they really seem very comparable. They give goofy duty cycles. Lincoln gives the amperage output of 90 amps at 100% while Miller lists their amperage output at 150amps at 40%. So without doing the math it initially appears miller has the advantage, but if you figure out the curve they are probably pretty close.I would like to say that the Lincoln would be the choice just because I like Lincoln, but in reality, the Lincoln has an output of 230 amps while the Miller only has 200amps.SO, based on the fact that they are almost identical machines, about the same price out the door with argon, and you are FORCING me to choose between the two, I go Lincoln for that extra 30amps. I can't give you any other reason to pick either one. Oh wait, yes I can. What is more prevalent in your area? Blue or Red? Parts availability and repair tech familiarity goes a long ways. Ok, so there you go. That's my take on it.
Reply:I got a Sync 200 for $18?? new From IOC, (no wheels) They are each nice units.Me!
Reply:Originally Posted by unisaw57What would you choose then if your budget was around 2 grand and you could buy anything ????Brian
Reply:PT225 is an inverter.  That would be my choice, but I am all RED.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I wish I lived where you do. Their is a price difference between those two machines where I live. I have done some research on both and found that the Lincolns to be the better buy for me. I am a miller man myself but when it comes down to spending hard earned cash, I look at all the options.I tried the Lincoln out and was impressed with it. I am now saving up for the PT225 and hope to have it by this spring at the latest. The best part for me is that my local Praxair dealer sells both and has been real good to me so service isn't going to be a problem.Good luck on your choiceMiller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:Originally Posted by David RPT225 is an inverter.  That would be my choice, but I am all RED.David
Reply:I went to the lincoln site.  I was wrong.  Square wave yes, but it still needs continuous hi freq.  Not an inverter.I have a TA-185 and its amazing what it will do.  Mostly how well you can tune it to weld aluminum.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:miller hands downMillermatic 211 with 150 spool gunDynasty 350 Hypertherm powermax 30XP
Reply:Originally Posted by David RI went to the lincoln site.  I was wrong.  Square wave yes, but it still needs continuous hi freq.  Not an inverter.I have a TA-185 and its amazing what it will do.  Mostly how well you can tune it to weld aluminum.David
Reply:If you had to lift one David, you'd always remember it's not an inverter  Next time I have to lift it for some reason I'll call ya   Originally Posted by David RPT225 is an inverter.  That would be my choice, but I am all RED.David
Reply:The PT uses HF to start the arc Originally Posted by unisaw57I've been looking into those machines, seems everyone likes them alot..... Again, my concerns are longevity being semiconductors mostly, vs a proven transformer. Are these inverters durable, Two Grand is alot of money to throw away in a few years if those transistors fry.....  Another thing is the PM 225 is 45 amps more power output over the TA 185Also, Are you saying that the PM 225 needs Hi Freq continuously and the inverters dont ???  Could you explain please ???ThanksBrian
Reply:Originally Posted by unisaw57The Precision Tig 225 is NOT an inverter. Your thinking of the Invertec 205 probably....  Another question is why are inverters so popular???  Except for portability I'd rather have a transformer machine, my reason being is that I can't imagine that kind of power being pulled through IC's and transistors for any length of time without burning something out. Maybe I'm just old fashioned but their are far fewer things to fry in a transformer machine.... They've been around over a 100 years now.......Brian
Reply:Originally Posted by unisaw57        ..snip...Also, Are you saying that the PM 225 needs Hi Freq continuously and the inverters dont ???  Could you explain please ???ThanksBrian
Reply:Originally Posted by unisaw57The Precision Tig 225 is NOT an inverter. Your thinking of the Invertec 205 probably....  Another question is why are inverters so popular???  Except for portability I'd rather have a transformer machine, my reason being is that I can't imagine that kind of power being pulled through IC's and transistors for any length of time without burning something out. Maybe I'm just old fashioned but their are far fewer things to fry in a transformer machine.... They've been around over a 100 years now.......Brian
Reply:Originally Posted by hotrodderi've had an invertec v205t for almost 6 years now, used pretty hard (my bread and butter work is repairing tranny cases) daily. it's even been dropped a couple of times (had to repair the case where the cooler attaches) but so far it's not missed a beatgranted 6 years isn't a long time but nothing is made to last in the way it used to be. besides, even transformer machines are relying on more PCBs these days- i wouldn't consider reliability/longevity an issue if you're sticking to a proven brandweight and input power aside (probably the major reasons for inverter popularity), the real advantage with inverters is AC performance. variable AC frequency allows the arc to be shaped according to the job (you can have a broad, soft arc for build up work or crank up the Hz for a narrow deeply penetrating arc) and less EP time is needed due to improved 'squarness' of the squarewave.
Reply:As much as I have had Miller TIG's beaten in to my head(I love Miller inverters). I would probally go Lincoln, being a transformer machine and all. Don't get me wrong if an OLD Syncrowave or Aerowave(dream machine before the Dynasty) fell in my lap I would take it in a heartbeat.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Originally Posted by unisaw57Is the variable AC frequency only for aluminum welding ???  I know the pulse feature works on steel.Another question. Can steel be tig welded using AC instead of DC ???ThanksBrian
Reply:Just FYI, the Lincoln draws 42 amps at 208 volts, and the Miller draws 54 amps at 208 volts, plus the Lincoln puts out more power. Came upon those numbers while looking at the bigger machines, which it looks like Lincoln beats the pants off the Miller in the bigger machines.
Reply:i like the red one right now i have a 205 and have run the sh!t out of itwith out hitting the duty cycle.just my $0.02ChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:I have the Miller Synchorwave 200 Runner with a Bernard 3500 cooler that I bought used recently. Lincoln is also good in the same price range. It would be a hard choice. My welding has improved 100% since I ditched my older Lincoln Idealarc. I love the pulse, square wave balance and the DIG Stick. Both the Lincoln and Miller are close. I doubt I could choose between them if I was buying new.Miller Millermatic 252Miller Syncrowave 200Liincoln AC-DC 225Victor O-A Set
Reply:Originally Posted by gnm109I have the Miller Synchorwave 200 Runner with a Bernard 3500 cooler that I bought used recently. Lincoln is also good in the same price range. It would be a hard choice. My welding has improved 100% since I ditched my older Lincoln Idealarc. I love the pulse, square wave balance and the DIG Stick. Both the Lincoln and Miller are close. I doubt I could choose between them if I was buying new.
Reply:I'd reccomend you buy a better machine, used...for the same money.Originally Posted by EngloidI'd reccomend you buy a better machine, used...for the same money.
Reply:Originally Posted by unisaw57I prefer a warranty when I spend 2 grand..............
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidI prefer a product good enough that I never need to use the warranty.   When I bought my Lincoln I used to have, it might as well not have had a warranty. When it messed up, nobody was very helpful. I then sold it and put a few more hundred into it and bought a much bigger Miller (used), and haven't had any problems with it at all.
Reply:wile i admittedly would love to have an all blue shop... with a lot more in it.LOL i think the syncro would be a better choice. let me explain my thinking.the lincoln has a lower duty cycle at 200amps than the syncro dose, this makes me think they took a smaller transformer and pushed it farther. if the syncro can do 200 amps at 20% and the PT is only at 15% at the same 200 amp's one might wonder how it is they reach 230 amp's ?? little to no duty cycle no dought, and definitely working its little wires off. i also see the post flow auto adjust as a big advantage and definite $$ saver. all too often we see new TIG owners asking " is my TIG leaking argon ???" due to the much higher rates of use as apposed to the MIG they are used to. the post flow plays a big part in this.the syncro adjusts its post flow to the amps being used. so even wile i can adjust my post flow on my TA-185 i admittedly tend to forget about it wile at the table welding. i reach over make a adjustment to the amp's if needed but don't take the time to re-adjust the post flow. wile in the learning stage the post flow is going to suck up a lot of argon due to frequent start stops. even if you just bump the foot control it will still run out the post flow at its set amp's. this could be 10sec. worth of argon blowing off into the wind. the syncro adjusting by the amps could well make a large savings here. say you only save 1/4 of the tank by the auto adjust, thats 4 tanks of argon instead of 5 you had to pay for. that will continue to add up as long as you have the welder. just some thing i thought i would bring up for you to think about.i think its a great feature that most likely gets over looked wile we all try to decipher what the duty cycle they list to sell the welder really means ??? i think we have to very similar transformers being portrayed as to very different ones. the duty cycles are truly meant to confuse, as is the max amp's. i think miller has portrayed there transformer more realistic ly wile lincoln has pushed its smaller less powerful one farther to make it seem like its bigger then it is. pushed to the limits any thing loses life span, so to sell some thing based on its maxed out performance is a bit deceiving i think.syncrowave 200= 200 amps 20% duty cycle (realistic max for long reliable life)PT 200= 200 amps at 15% duty cycle (with a max of 230amp's ?? for how long ??)just a lil food for thought. i'm just a hobby guy so this is just the way i see the stats and could well be way off. but i just don't get why a 230amp welder should have a lower duty cycle at the sam amp's as a 200amp welder ?? kinda makes me see a marketing ploy in the works. but then we have all mistrusted the hole duty cycle rating system. ok flame away.oh well just had to throw in my $0.02, although it may only be worth $0.002. summer is here, plant a tree for mother earth. if you dont have time or space, sponcer some one else to plant one for you.feel free to shoot me a PM or e-mail me at [email][email protected] i got lots of time.
Reply:Originally Posted by fun4now.i also see the post flow auto adjust as a big advantage and definite $$ saver. all too often we see new TIG owners asking " is my TIG leaking argon ???" due to the much higher rates of use as apposed to the MIG they are used to. the post flow plays a big part in this.
Reply:Originally Posted by fun4now.wile i admittedly would love to have an all blue shop... with a lot more in it.LOL i think the syncro would be a better choice. let me explain my thinking.the lincoln has a lower duty cycle at 200amps than the syncro dose, this makes me think they took a smaller transformer and pushed it farther. if the syncro can do 200 amps at 20% and the PT is only at 15% at the same 200 amp's one might wonder how it is they reach 230 amp's ?? little to no duty cycle no dought, and definitely working its little wires off. i also see the post flow auto adjust as a big advantage and definite $$ saver. all too often we see new TIG owners asking " is my TIG leaking argon ???" due to the much higher rates of use as apposed to the MIG they are used to. the post flow plays a big part in this.the syncro adjusts its post flow to the amps being used. so even wile i can adjust my post flow on my TA-185 i admittedly tend to forget about it wile at the table welding. i reach over make a adjustment to the amp's if needed but don't take the time to re-adjust the post flow. wile in the learning stage the post flow is going to suck up a lot of argon due to frequent start stops. even if you just bump the foot control it will still run out the post flow at its set amp's. this could be 10sec. worth of argon blowing off into the wind. the syncro adjusting by the amps could well make a large savings here. say you only save 1/4 of the tank by the auto adjust, thats 4 tanks of argon instead of 5 you had to pay for. that will continue to add up as long as you have the welder. just some thing i thought i would bring up for you to think about.i think its a great feature that most likely gets over looked wile we all try to decipher what the duty cycle they list to sell the welder really means ??? i think we have to very similar transformers being portrayed as to very different ones. the duty cycles are truly meant to confuse, as is the max amp's. i think miller has portrayed there transformer more realistic ly wile lincoln has pushed its smaller less powerful one farther to make it seem like its bigger then it is. pushed to the limits any thing loses life span, so to sell some thing based on its maxed out performance is a bit deceiving i think.syncrowave 200= 200 amps 20% duty cycle (realistic max for long reliable life)PT 200= 200 amps at 15% duty cycle (with a max of 230amp's ?? for how long ??)just a lil food for thought. i'm just a hobby guy so this is just the way i see the stats and could well be way off. but i just don't get why a 230amp welder should have a lower duty cycle at the sam amp's as a 200amp welder ?? kinda makes me see a marketing ploy in the works. but then we have all mistrusted the hole duty cycle rating system. ok flame away.oh well just had to throw in my $0.02, although it may only be worth $0.002.
Reply:the auto adjust on the post flow can be turned off. i suspect this is to better serve the welder should he do some of the more exotic metals that need more post flow. although i cant think at the moment i know they exist.. man i need skleep...as of yet i have not heard of anyone having problems with it. i have also seen many cases of excellent service from Miller, but i suspect where you are could be a factor in that as well. but the miller board has gotten many back up and running as well as the 1-800 options. warranty seems solid with them. at the same time i have yet to need any service from them....knock on wood. and i hope it stays that way. for me i have never regretted my blue choices. and they have all served me well.i think in the end it comes down to what will make you feel good about your choice. took me several years of hearing nothing but good about the TA-185 before i decided i could get it instead of continuing to save for the Dyn. so far i am happy with my choice, its worked well for me.its a tuff call. summer is here, plant a tree for mother earth. if you dont have time or space, sponcer some one else to plant one for you.feel free to shoot me a PM or e-mail me at [email][email protected] i got lots of time.
Reply:hey unisaw57.Did you decide yet. I am also looking at both these machines. I posted earlyer here that the PT225 was going to be my choice but a seen a comparison between the two and it looked like the miller had a little bit more options. I called my dealer and it looks like I can either one for the same price and he might even be able to do a little better on the miller. Now I feel like I am back to square one. I am not going to get it right away but hopefully before spring. Let me know if you picked one and how you like it. ThanksMiller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidI'd reccomend you buy a better machine, used...for the same money.
Reply:dude.....this is over 2yrs old and he said "better".Last edited by Boostinjdm; 01-15-2010 at 02:42 AM.My name's not Jim....
Reply:People do read old threads it appears.  Miller has added a comparison on their website now.
Reply:Originally Posted by David RPT225 is an inverter.  That would be my choice, but I am all RED.David
Reply:oops.....I just realized a few other already corrected you David on the PT225.