arc welding sheet metal

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Ok, so i have a few limitations to deal with.1st and formost is my skill level.  2nd is the equipment i have.I'm laying some practice beads before i do anything important.  I've got an old AC only buzzbox, and my best success so far was with 5/64 6013 on the high tap at roughly 50amps.I've got a high tap and low tap, and i've tried both.  any lower on the high tap and it wont hold an arc,  on the low tap it wont strike an arc until closer to 55-60 amps. at which point the arc is too hot and blows through right away.my practice metal is thinner than my project, so maybe i'm OK, but i want to be confident the project will work before i get started.mostly, once i get an arc struck, i get to weld about an inch before it blows through.  and it is warping the metal badly.  I did do a corner weld that didn't blow through, but i had to go REALLY fast and the weld looked pretty narrow.I'm thinking about tring some 1/16 7014, but i'm really thinking i'm at the bottom limits of my equipment.anything else i can try?need pictures?  If you can picture swiss cheese, that's what i've got now maybe i'm just looking at a bunch of tack welds to get the project done and to prevent blow through?  What concerns me is i will have to do some vertical welds to finish the project.any thoughts?  some of you guys are masters of all things arc welded, so i thought i'd try and pick your brains.
Reply:On sheet metal I found myself using 3/32 7010.  I typically use my SA 200 on all my projects.  In a pinch you can use those 3/32 7010 rods with a miller maxstar 150.  The maxstar 150 can't hold an arc with 6010 but ive found it will run 7010 rod pretty good.  IMO ditch that AC buzzbox and get a DC machine.  DC machines are the construction industry standard.  There are a lot of good used DC machines around.  The Lincoln Idealarc 250 is a great shop machine- used $200-$500.  If you can spend the money id buy a Miller Maxstar 150 STL.  The home hobbiest probably wont need anything bigger than 1/8 7018.  I've enjoyed mine, --a very versitile machine. my 2 cents.
Reply:yeah, i'm going to start putting some feelers out on a DC machine.  What i have now is free, so i thought i might as well use it until i can find something better.I was able to sneak away from work for a bit and stopped by TSC and got a 1/2 pound of 1/16 6013 and a pound of 1/16 7014, and a short piece of 16gauge steel, which looks like what i have for the end project.what are the service ranges for the 6013 and 7014?  the package doesn't say anything on it.they are hobart rods, perhaps it is listed on their website?i'm thinking the 7010 is probably DC only?  similar to 6010?
Reply:Originally Posted by Meborderwhat are the service ranges for the 6013 and 7014?  the package doesn't say anything on it.
Reply:Originally Posted by Meborderi'm thinking the 7010 is probably DC only?  similar to 6010?
Reply:Maybe try putting some thick aluminum behind the seam to act as a heat sink.Montgomery Ward Powr Kraft AC-DC 230/140
Reply:Warping is going to be an issue with this set up. Weld short stitches, skip a bit, weld another short stitch, come back and fill in spaces.
Reply:ok ... so here's what i got:I did a bunch of practice welds with varying degrees of success.7014 starts and restarts easier, but is harder to control.  6013 is more stable once you get it started but is harder to get to arc.  I think that is just practice on my part.so i did some lap welds.7014 ... i didn't even bother cleaning it up.  the welds are ugly as hell, but they did fuse together.the 6013 actually works pretty well.  the bottom weld would have been a lot prettier had i not run out of stick and had to restart.so i know i can probably get it done with 6013.  But i think i'm going to play around with the 7014 for a while and see if i can get it to work a little better.  the 7014 is about half the cost of the 6013, so that has some draw to at least try and get it to work.now i just gotta figgure out how to do vertical with this rod ... should prove interesting.open to constructive criticism.these were all done 45amps AC on the High tap .... i'm gonna try 7014 on the low tap and see how that works next.thanks in advance!
Reply:I used to do sheet metal with a buzz box. I dont remember the rod number ( 20 years ago) but I will tell you that they were small diameter and only about 7 inches long. I used to buy them at canadian tire and they were about 40 amps, if I recall. It's totally do able but will require patience. Good luck I just poked around in the shop It looks like it was 1/16 6013 at around 40 to 50 amp. I see harbour freight sells for 6 bucks..Last edited by dumb as a stump; 02-02-2012 at 08:56 PM.Miller thunderbolt 250Decastar 135ERecovering tool-o-holic ESAB OAI have been interested or involved in Electrical, Fire Alarm, Auto, Marine, Welding, Electronics ETC to name a just a few. So YES you can own too many tools.
Reply:oh, i should have added that this is on 16gauge steel, where as the stuff i had before was quite a bit thinner.not sure what thickness it was, but it was the cover off of a garage door opener i junked out this new stuff cost me 9 bucks! but is much closer to the thickness of steel i will be working with in the end.
Reply:Thanks for the tip on harbor freight.that 6 bucks for 2 lbs is a WAY better deal than i got at TSC. they were about 9 bucks for 38pcs.  which is about a half pound.  the 7014 was 11 bucks for a pound.how does ASW compare to Hobart for quality?  or is this a Chevy vs. Ford type question?
Reply:6013 and 7014 are both rods with a lot of flux. Not really good for welding anything thin. 6011 would be my pick. Dont make long welds.
Reply:Originally Posted by Welderskelter6013 and 7014 are both rods with a lot of flux. Not really good for welding anything thin.
Reply:While practicing, try cutting the plate and welding it back together, instead of just running a bead on a solid piece. Whatever your building will be starting out as two pieces so might as well practice that way. I agree with the idea of getting a DC capable welder. My Bobcat has a AC setting and I don't even know if it works. I do DC on everything, is AC ever an advantage over DC? If so I may have to try it and see. I guess if someone gave me a bunch of AC only rods I might try it.
Reply:Opps, wrong thread.Last edited by DSW; 02-04-2012 at 10:11 AM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by BistineauI do DC on everything, is AC ever an advantage over DC?
Reply:the only advantage i know of is some machines have a higer ampacity on AC vs DC.other than that, from everything i hear, DC is better in every way.  Someone suggested that AC will work better if the metal is magnatized ... but other than that.....i was actually quite happy with how well my little machine worked with 6013 on that thin metal.... i figgured there would be a lot more splatter.
Reply:I haven't noticed a huge difference between AC and DC either. A good AC machine will work as well as a mediocre DC machine. AC (as I've read) works better for magnetized metals because its less succeptable to arc-blow.-AlexSears/Craftsman 230A Buzzy BoxSears/Craftsman 180A Buzzy BoxChicago Electric 80A InverterALL STICK...ALL THE TIME!I spent a lot of time with the square peg and round hole.
Reply:Sheet metal on a tapped machine is going to be a challange any way u cut it.   AC only is going to make it that much harderSent with Taptalk from mobile device, please excuse the typosTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Take a look here.   23 ga welded at 10 amps.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=12474DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Back in the 1950 Mechanix Illustrated the "Tip" was how to add a Diode in the Stinger cable of an AC Buzz Box to allow better welds on sheet metal by the Home Mechanic.Back then alot of sheet metal was welded with rod.
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawSheet metal on a tapped machine is going to be a challange any way u cut it.   AC only is going to make it that much harderSent with Taptalk from mobile device, please excuse the typos
Reply:If possible stand the work vertical & weld vertical down. Starting at the bottom go up 3" or 4" and run a downhill bead to the bottom, move up above your weld the same distance & weld down into your first weld, continue this all the way to the top .Last edited by Old Skool; 02-06-2012 at 02:47 PM.
Reply:I thought AC was also helpful on thin material because it has shallower penetration. I may go and get some of those small diameter rods and try some sheet metal.PapaLincoln Idealarc 250 (circa 1962)Lincoln Weldpak 155 w/Mig KitLincoln Squarewave TIG 175
Reply:Originally Posted by bigbIt sounds like he has two taps and he can adjust the amperage on either tap with a dial or slider. My old Linde is like that, a high tap and a low tap, except my high tap says it's for cutting only. Were you thinking he has one of those old multi tap machines without any adjustment?Originally Posted by Welderskelter6013 and 7014 are both rods with a lot of flux. Not really good for welding anything thin. 6011 would be my pick. Dont make long welds.
Reply:Actually, 6010 and 6011 work quite well on thin sheet despite being "deep penetrating" rods. Welding thin sheet with either 6011 or 6013 requires some skill, so be prepared for some cussin' and swearin' at first. The best way for thin sheet is to weld downhill at about a 45* angle. Weld HOT AND FAST, and keep as short an arc as you can. I personally find the 5/64 and 1/16" rods to be a pain in the @$$, as well as expen$ive. 16 ga. sheet can be done with 3/32" rods, but you'll be wanting that MIG You will get better results by skip-welding rather than running long, continuous beads, and you'll have less warpage as well.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:I know that 6010 and 6011 is used for sheet metal corner welds and T-joints at times, but the 6013 rod produces a much nicer weld bead and is easier to use on sheet metal.  With a little practice, 6013 can be somewhat mastered with ease.  Plus, the welds don't look like camel snot over sheet metal, unlike 6010/6011.  After all, 6013 was originally designed for sheet metal production line type welding BEFORE Mig welding conquored the process.Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life Member
Reply:I tried 6011 with 3/32 rod with mixed results.  It seemed like i could long-arc it and keep it from blowing through, but like SuperArc said, it looked like camel snot.the 6013 looks pretty nice when done, but like you said, i need to get used to running short stringers.  Best luck with really thin stuff is with 1/16" rod so far.  the 5/64 worked OK, but it wouldnt run at 40amps on my machine, and anything higher tends to burn through.i'm really concerned how i'm going to tackle a vertical weld at ankle-height.