How can I get into Tig welding without spending a fortune?

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Hello,I presently have a Miller Bobcat Portable Stick Welder and a Farmhand Mig Welder. I am not a professional welder but I find I am doing more and more. Don't like firing up the Bobcat, too involved wheeling it outside and then burning a bunch of fuel. It is an awesome welder though, only 40 hours on it. Bought it new in 2000 as a backup generator for the house with benefits... Use the Mig welder a lot of the time but lately I have been doing very light welding on motorcycle gas tanks (Fuel Removed of course). I also would like to weld some aluminum.Since I won't be doing a ton of welding I am looking for a good economical solution to a tig. One that also does aluminum.Also, I only can pull about 30 amps out of my barns electrical box. What type of machine should I be looking for?
Reply:http://www.millerwelds.com/diversionpc/details/21 amps about 1350.00 street price.Adding Aloominum into the mix adds cost to the machineEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:As much as I hate to say it, if you HAVE to have it on the cheap, need AC, and only a 30 amp circuit, you may want to consider some of the Chinese inverter units from one of the companies on this site.  At least they seem pretty good customer service wise when you talk to them directly.
Reply:Not much about welding is cheap and doing GTAW on the cheap is more difficult.I would be looking used and an upgrade to you power supply Good Luck
Reply:whats a good strong machine ~1500 that would do everything but alluminum. I have no idea why I would weld alluminum as I really just working on cars and trucks. Maybe stainless, but 90-95% of what I would weld is steel. Are there advantages to tig over mig? I really don't know, but I think tig is far more presentable...
Reply:Originally Posted by GrantHwhats a good strong machine ~1500 that would do everything but alluminum.
Reply:strong like do anything a home garage could throw at it.
Reply:Originally Posted by GrantHstrong like do anything a home garage could throw at it.
Reply:I got your answer, Miller econotig or a Hobart Tigmate, they are the same exact machine and come with all the same accessories, hell they even come with a regulator and weldcraft torch. Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me, it just doesn't have a whole lot of power.http://store.cyberweld.com/milec230vol.htmlhttp://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...6124_200026124Last edited by SR20steve; 08-14-2008 at 12:08 AM.
Reply:the Diversion frm Miller may work for you.The rest of this post is kinda wierd!Tim Beeker.
Reply:Tig for cheap is not that hard. The problem is your 30 amp circuit limitation. I got an old Cyber Tig 300 from an uncle in trade for some labor. It's a wonderful machine in great shape with AC and DC outputs for tig, a DC reverse setting for stick welding and 300 amps of power available along with all the bells and whistles (Slop control, pulse, etc.). The 2 problems with it are that firstly it is HUGE, weighing in at about 1000 pounds, but the even bigger problem (For you at least) is that it draws 96 amps at full bore. It does have 3 taps, one for 3-50 amps, another for 3-100 amps and the last for 3-300 amps. I'm sure that when using less output, the amp draw will be far less the the 96 amp max, but I'm not exactly sure how low. If you can keep an eye out for a smaller (Less amperage output) old style transformer unit and keep the amperage low you can perhaps get by with a 30 amp circuit. I often see older transformer machines  for sale in the $500-$600 range. Just a thought.Hobart - CyberTig 300CTHobart - IronMan 210Lincoln - WeldPak 3200
Reply:If you don't need the AC for aluminum, a Maxstar 150 or 200 is the perfect choice. I wish to death I still had my little 150 Maxstar. It was just awesome for a 110/220v machine, and it did not have any issues with 1/4" steel and SS. The 200 is a very strong machine for its' size. Both can be had for about $1200 for the 150 to $1600 for the 200.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:I've been hearing a lot of good reports on Longevity welders and plasma  cutting machines.  they are made in China ( isn't everything? lol)  but their price is rediculously low.  Might be worth checking outjoeLongevity LS 160 P tig/Plasma comboLincoln AC/DC 225 TombstoneMiller 170 Mig (shared with neighbor)"Life is like Ice cream...Enjoy it or it melts away" joebiplane
Reply:are you dead set on new or will used work? I found my TIG machine at an estate auction, it was ready to weld for pennies on the dollar due to it's age.
Reply:Hey I got one for ya!Buy a torch!Lets see....I can weld-Steel-Stainless-Inconel-Monel-Aluminum-Magnesium-Cast Iron-Copper-Brass-LeadI can braze-Steel-Stainless-Aluminum-Cast Iron-Copper-Brass-BronzePlus I can solder most of the above, and heat, form, heat treat, and with a cutting attachment cut steel. Hmmmm food for thought? Still used extensively by the aircraft world, provent and safe. And in some materials and situations, a much nicer job can be done, especially on aluminum sheet.-Brass
Reply:Thanks to everyone for all of the valuble information. I'm considering all options, new, or used. I do have a torch but I was unaware that I could weld aluminum with the torch, thats good to know and something I will try. I use the torch to cut and sometimes to braze thin motorcycle mufflers. The braze on the mufflers is not good because the heat from the engine eventually melts the welds.I have been doing more and more fine work. Motorcycle work mostly. Thin mufflers and thin tanks. I also have been doing some metal sculpture from time to time. I find that the fine work is tough to do with the mig.
Reply:Originally Posted by redbug2. The braze on the mufflers is not good because the heat from the engine eventually melts the welds..
Reply:Originally Posted by redbug2Thanks to everyone for all of the valuble information. I'm considering all options, new, or used. I do have a torch but I was unaware that I could weld aluminum with the torch, thats good to know and something I will try. I use the torch to cut and sometimes to braze thin motorcycle mufflers. The braze on the mufflers is not good because the heat from the engine eventually melts the welds.I have been doing more and more fine work. Motorcycle work mostly. Thin mufflers and thin tanks. I also have been doing some metal sculpture from time to time. I find that the fine work is tough to do with the mig.
Reply:HTP Invertig 160 is about $1400 complete setup. That is a DC only machine. Then you can step up to the Invertig 201 for about $2300 with an air cooled tig torch. This machine will do DC and AC and has full adjustments(pulsing, slope ect...) From all accountts the HTP units are nice and work well and seem to have no reliability issues. Also I think Thermal Arc has a 160 dc unit as well.'Mike
Reply:Originally Posted by 69 chevyWow, that's a really HOT engine.
Reply:Invertig 201 AC/DC Looks like just what I am looking for. Max pull of 30 amps, which I probably won't ever reach. Now I have to find a good used unit. I think one of the reasons I'm not big on gas is that Gas welding requires preheat and results in overall heating of parts.  That can lead to distortion.
Reply:Don't know a thing about it,but  http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...784#post200784   You'll have to determine if it's what you want & want to pay.
Reply:redbug2,Could you please explain your comment about "Gas welding requires preheat and results in overall heating of parts."What do you use to "preheat" the parts?  Maybe a propane torch?This entire post has me shaking my head.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIredbug2,Could you please explain your comment about "Gas welding requires preheat and results in overall heating of parts."What do you use to "preheat" the parts?  Maybe a propane torch?This entire post has me shaking my head.
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloI think what he means is with electric welding, the heat is more focused, whereas with gas welding, there is more heat added before the weld puddle forms. As for distortion... I have created some horribly bent SS pieces with my tig welder, so I don't think it is a cure all for that!!!Originally Posted by makoman1860Nope its not at all. Stress caused by weld shrinkage ( after all, all it can d ois shrink ) , happens natrually with ALL welding methods. If everything is a bit hotter, and softer, the shrinking weld pool pulls the soft material with it. If the surrounding metal is cool and still quite stiff, all the stress is in a small area next to the weld. Each has its problems. Dealing with welding shrinkage is part of being a weldor, or at least a good weldor. Many people use TIG as a crutch for poor fit-up, jigging, joint geometry, and design, and what they end up with is a highly internally stressed part when finished.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Nope its not at all. Stress caused by weld shrinkage ( after all, all it can d ois shrink ) , happens natrually with ALL welding methods. If everything is a bit hotter, and softer, the shrinking weld pool pulls the soft material with it. If the surrounding metal is cool and still quite stiff, all the stress is in a small area next to the weld. Each has its problems. Dealing with welding shrinkage is part of being a weldor, or at least a good weldor. Many people use TIG as a crutch for poor fit-up, jigging, joint geometry, and design, and what they end up with is a highly internally stressed part when finished.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1This contradicts what Redbog stated: "I think one of the reasons I'm not big on gas is that Gas welding requires preheat and results in overall heating of parts. That can lead to distortion."
Reply:Amazing isn't it.  How perceptions change with the advent of new technology.25-30 years ago the only thing you'd ever see a welder using on an exhaust system was a torch.  Whether he was cutting a muffler off or welding one on, it was a gas torch.Bodymen learned to use heat to their advantage.  A good one with a torch and wet rag (and a few dollies) could make metal sit up and take notice.  Lead was the filler material of choice.  Little did we understand the long term effects.  Wonder what effect Bondo dust will have on today's generation.To me the gas torch is still the most versatile tool in the welder's toolbox.  Learn to use it well and it will be your friend for life.  The problem is that today's welder needs instant gratification and seems unwilling to learn the basics of the use of a torch.Oh well, quick trip down memory lane.PS:  Learned gas welding when we still mixed our own acetylene in a hopper, rather than having it delivered in a bottle.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by redbug2Invertig 201 AC/DC Looks like just what I am looking for. Max pull of 30 amps, which I probably won't ever reach. Now I have to find a good used unit. I think one of the reasons I'm not big on gas is that Gas welding requires preheat and results in overall heating of parts.  That can lead to distortion.
Reply:cruz the clasifieds or craigs list   I found  a miller dialarc 250hf  with torch foot pedal and cart for 500 bucks  looked at it welded with it  took it home  for what its worth hypertherm powermax 900 : miller 30a spoolgun ranger 305g lincoln ln-25more tools than a tool truck
Reply:Sorry, I have been on vacation... My comment "I think one of the reasons I'm not big on gas is that Gas welding requires preheat and results in overall heating of parts. That can lead to distortion." Was actually from my father, a Columbia Engineering graduate with 38 years in manufacturing. He made it to President at a company called Stokes, they made vacuum pumps, freeze dryers, and once some plastic molding machines... Then they were bought out and all the machines sent to Chechlosivakia... I think the point my father was making was that the electric weld is more targeted. Yes, makoman1860's points out that one should follow welding practices and not let the tig cover bad practices. But, with what little knowledge I have in welding, I do notice that if I am gas welding I am heating up a larger area than I would with an electric weld. In my father's case I'm sure there were also efficiency benefits to electric welds over gas in the manufacturing plant. They had some great welders at the plant making vacuum vessels. The plant had 2000 workers at one point. Passed the comments onto my father and I will see if he can add any information from an engineering perspective.
Reply:Originally Posted by redbug2Passed the comments onto my father and I will see if he can add any information from an engineering perspective.
Reply:Originally Posted by CapnbondoThermal arc's Arc Master 185 is pretty much the same in terms of features, at around $1000 cheaper I think. The TA's are extremely good in terms of bang for the buck. Otherwise your best bet is to look into having a 50-60amp circuit wired up and then you can get an older dialarc/syncrowave/cybertig/ideal arc.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1TA185s are about 2,300.00 these days. As was mentioned the 30 amp power supply limits the selection of machines to look at.
Reply:Yup- Dynasty 200dx is over 3 grand but it is a 120/240v machineDon't know the prices of the 201.I have a TA185I scooped it up off CL for 1$,350.00- well a good friend located one in Eugene and then had it shipped  for 40.00The OP wants to do AL and limited to 30 amps so like ya said, unless he upgrades the Input power the choices are limited.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:If you dont mind the massive size and weight, how about an old tranformer machine, like a Lincoln IdealArc Tig 300/300?  You can usually find them completely decked out with leads, torch, cooler, pedal, dolly, and bottle for 500-1000.  2-250 amps AC, 2-375 amps DC. about the size of your refrigerator but 2/3 as tall. VERY heavy, so you want to find one locally.  Check your local craigslist.JeffEdit:  Sorry, just noticed you only have 30 amp service.  You'll need at least 50 amps for a Lincoln Tig 300/300.  JeffLast edited by mendoje1; 08-22-2008 at 03:17 PM.LINCOLN IdealArc Tig 300/300LINCOLN SP135+ MigNAPA buzz boxHARRIS Oxy-Acetylene Torch SetMILLER  and Harbor Freight AD HelmetsHarbor Freight Tig, Plasma & Spot
Reply:Invertig 201 is a click less than $2400.  Pretty unbeatable value, and it's what I'll be ordering shortly unless somebody can make a compelling case for something else.  E'mail me off the board, and I'll e'mail you a copy of their current catalog with pricing.BK
Reply:Originally Posted by jetenginedoctorInvertig 201 is a click less than $2400.  Pretty unbeatable value, and it's what I'll be ordering shortly unless somebody can make a compelling case for something else.  E'mail me off the board, and I'll e'mail you a copy of their current catalog with pricing.BK
Reply:Found these machines at a flea market, what are they? Seller says they will make a Tig machine.. But, no torch, regulator, or water cooling unit.. Wants $200 for the package... Attached Images
Reply:Yes they will, but most likely will not work off of the 30 amps you are currently limited to.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Redbug2 (quote) How can I get into Tig welding without spending a fortune?Go to HF and get their tig machine, It is for cheap and you can buy a service agreement with it, so if anything happens you can take it back and get it replaced/ repaired or I think money back.Miller Thunderbolt 225Millermatic 130 XPLincoln HD 100 Forney C-5bt Arc welderPlasma Cutter Gianteach Cut40ACent Machinery Bandsaw Cent Machinery 16Speed Drill PressChicago Electric 130amp tig/90 ArcHobart 190 Mig spoolgun ready
Reply:Broccoli1 you are right, looked at the manual from Miller site, says 56A at 230 volts.... over my limit.....STwelder-The HF Tig is DC only so I believe no Aluminum. I think I am going to borrow my brother-in-laws Tig head and atach it to my Bobcat for now. I will dislike burning the gas and having to start it up every time I need to weld, but, I only have 30 hours on the Bobcat since 2000 so maybe its a good thing to start it up from time to time... At least I will be able to see if I like to Tig weld without spending the $$$.
Reply:Originally Posted by STwelderRedbug2 (quote) How can I get into Tig welding without spending a fortune?Go to HF and get their tig machine, It is for cheap and you can buy a service agreement with it, so if anything happens you can take it back and get it replaced/ repaired or I think money back.