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Does anyone have a good procedure for mounting sleeves in concrete forms? I'm gonna do some handrails on a concrete staircase. There will be a curb that matches the slope on either side and that's where my sleeves need to be. I'd like to be able to go to the job site, place the sleeves for the handrail posts in the forms, and not have to be on site when they pour the concrete.My plan now is to mount the sleeves, which will be pvc pipe, to a wooden cleat that will lay across the top of the forms and use some tie wire at the bottom to keep it vertical. Any tips on attaching the pvc to the cleat? Can you see any problems with my plan?Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:Originally Posted by fortyonethirty... and not have to be on site when they pour the concrete... Can you see any problems with my plan?
Reply:I think Rick is right on this. The concrete crew will see them as something getting in their way of spreading and finishing the concrete. Maybe even remove them since they built the forms and "somebody" put that crap in the way. If they know about them going in, and what the are going to be for, ask them their recommendations on this. You will probably have to work with them some on setting the forms with the sleeves in it for this to work out in your favor. Otherwise you may return after the fact and find them filled with concrete or gone entirely. Another option might be to let them do the concrete work, then core drill the holes where you want them and install sleeves.
Reply:How are you going to secure them in a PVC tube? I made this mistake once. My one customer has a fenced in area for his dumpster. The fence is hit like once a year. So when I poured a new concrete slab, I put in steel tubes like you want. My thinking, it will be easier to replace the fence when hit. BIG mistake. It was VERY difficult to install the new fence. Next time, I will just do it correctly and get paid to replace it correctly."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:Show up with your sleeves, a blue print, and a couple cases of beer. Ask for the carpenter foreman. Problem solved! Dont pay any attention to meIm just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:A buddy of mine fabbed up a jig he gave to his brother for setting core tubes in stamped concrete for railings he does. It's been a few years since I saw the jig.If I remember correctly the jig consisted of a 24" length of angle iron as a vertical with about 6 or 8 holes drilled thru the bottom section to attach the piece to the 2x4 form work. There was a 2nd piece of angle iron that was welded at 90 deg at the top and a 3rd piece that came back down that the piece of pipe was attached to. I can't remember exactly how they did the sleeve or how it was attached right now. Sort of like my very rough drawing in paint. The PVC pipe is blue and the jig is red in the rough sketch.The basic idea is that you position the vertical leg plumb and screw it to the forms so the top leg is 8"-10" minimum off the top of the form. This gives the finisher room to work under your jig. The down side is it does stick up and can trip people who aren't aware it's there, ( I'd paint it bright orange myself and clip the corners so there's no sharp edges to catch on.) If you put a piece of 2x flat at top of crete, I'll almost guarantee it will get taken off as there's no way they can finish under the board. This is sort of the same way we do tie wire on tall pins on curb forms.The cross bar at the top is set to give you the offset you need. With them it was always 2x form lumber, but some guys like to run a 2nd flat 2x to span joints or a 2x4 turned sideways as a stiff back for bracing, so you might want to design this so it's adjustable to set the distance from the outside of the forms or bracing.( he knew how his brother set forms so most of his weren't adjustable) The last piece simply held the pvc pipe in position. Tape the top and bottom with at least 3 layers of duct tape to keep out crete. He might have used pipe on this piece and run the OD of the vertical pipe down inside the PVC and simply wrapped the two together with duct tape. Be sure your sleeve is long enough to stick out above the top of the crete some. A hand saw will trim it flush later. I know he had the PVC sleeves set up so he could remove them before pouring to set the posts. I can't remember how he did it, but my guess is he scored the PVC with the table saw 90% thru on more than one side and then wrapped the whole piece with tape. Then all he had to do was take a chisel and bust out the last bit and the PVC would fall to the inside. It seems like a lot of work for one job. He built these because his brother who did the stamp work used him for all the railings etc on these sorts of projects, so the added time building the jigs up front saved him in the long run. You could certainly build these inexpensively out of wood rather than steel for a single job. I could see building something like this out of 2x4's for the vertical and top member with maybe a plywood gusset or extra blocking behind the vertical at the top to strengthen the connection and run the PVC pipe tall and simply screw the PVC pipe to the top 2x and whack it off later if you planned on leaving the PVC pipe in the crete. I'd ask to look at the jig, but his brother who does the stamp work is an AZZ and screwed me out of some big money on some work so I won't deal with him any more. Attached Images.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:How about a 4"x4"x1/4" plate with J-rods welded to the underside. The top of the plate will be flush with the finished concrete. The 4"x4" size gives you some 'oops' room when the concrete guys bump them around.The concrete guys would be happy since they can run the power trowel right over the top. After it cures just hit the top of the plate with a wire wheel to clean off any concrete. Then weld to it.The downside is the top of the plate will always be visible in the concrete. Not sure if the customer would like that.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:With the effort you put into this endeavor, you could buy a core drill and place holes wherever you want. Never depend on others to do it right.
Reply:as a journeyman mason, I havce 3 things to add:1. you NEED to be on site the day of the pour. Plumbers and electricians always have a pour watch for good reason, finishers like to breaqk things.2. scrap your idea of using PVC sleeves. They're a PITA to remove from concrete3. Never rely on any crapenter to do formwork. They build for keeps and when a finisher needs to strip something that was set up wrong, it just pisses 'em off.Here's what we do in these cases: get tin cans the dimensions you need, cut the tops and bottoms off, fill with sand and duct tape both ends. When the timing is right, wet set your cans. No muss, no fuss, and the sand keeps 'em from floating. Tin cans are easier to twist and bend out of the concrete.PS: you'll still need the beer though..... for the finishers of course (and have one yourself)Fortyonethirty, I re-read your post and since your cans are going in stair curbs, you'll need to cut one end beveled to match the slope.Last edited by dubl_t; 03-27-2012 at 08:10 PM.Lincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:We always use stainless , carbon steel pipe ,or tube for sleeves. We weld 2, 3, or 4, angle clips [ depending on sleeve diameter size] with holes in them to the side of sleeve with hole down to form. Bottom of angle clip is flush with bottom of sleeve and screw into form. We would cut styrofoam to fit inside so as not to get filled with concrete. Worked for us.
Reply:Thanks for all the tips! Just to clarify, I don't intend to remove the sleeves, I plan to tape the ends shut and leave them in permanently. They will be 2" grey pvc conduit, and the posts will be 1.5" round tube. I've already made up the cleats with the pvc attached. I used 1x4 for the cleat and attached the pvc with three wood screws which seemed to hold pretty well, and sealed the top tightly against the wood, and then put tape over the screws to keep the mud out until they need to be unscrewed. Most of the sleeves are going to be placed at the landings, of which there are way too many (stupid architect), so most are cut square, but I had to make up a few with angle cuts to match the slope.Does anyone know of a good reason the pvc should not remain in the concrete?I've had holes core drilled before, but was in a flat slab and the core rig had plenty of room. I did not think it would be possible in this situation. Has anyone had holes put in on stairs with a curb before?Last edited by fortyonethirty; 03-28-2012 at 12:35 PM.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:Does anyone know of a good reason the pvc should not remain in the concrete?Well , I would see about giving the concrete crew coffee and rolls to keep the sleeves where you want them. You gotta have them secure . Fasten one down then kick it. If it stayed there, good to go. How many sleeves are required ?? Is this a one time deal ? or is it going to be ongoing like floor by floor ? Try the first batch and see what happens.
Reply:How are you anchoring the posts in the sleeves? If You are setting them with epoxy, check to see if it sticks to the pvc. a lot of epoxy doesnt stick well to smooth slick pvc
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1Does anyone know of a good reason the pvc should not remain in the concrete?
Reply:If you are doing these the way I think you are, it won't surprise me if the crete guys take them down or you find that your cores aren't where you want them. The board sitting flat at top of crete will be impossible to finish under and the surface will look like crap when done that way. The only reason I'd do a form that way would be if we were going to cap the pour or if they were in a wall top that no one would ever see. On flat work we'd either set up the way I suggested so you can finish under your braces, wet set the cores, or set the braces your way and then disassemble the braces after the crete was poured and finish. The problem with pulling the braces and then finishing is the time it takes. You only get so long to work with the crete, and the finishers will have enough stuff going on and probably won't want to F with trying to figure out how you put all this together, especially if you covered up all the screws with tape. This is doubly true if these are for steps rather than ramps because there's probably 5 times more finishing work to do with steps for the crete guys. ( FYI if this is for a ramp, keep in mind that your cores will all end up set at an angle if you set the board flat with the top of forms, and probably will make life a b!tch later for you.)Wet crete in screw heads won't bother a screw gun at all. Even coming back the next day I've never had any issues stripping forms where the crete got into the screw heads. It's only an issue after 3 or 4 days. I've set a lot of handrail brackets in pool decks when we poured and stamped. The metal sockets are exactly like your PVC cores, except you have zero room for error once the crete hardens. Almost every one we did had a form set up so I could finish under the braces and leave the braces in place as long as possible until we were ready to stamp.As far as the PVC, the bonding issues mentioned comes to mind. I also don't think you will have enough space to use anchoring cement, and you'd better plan that these won't be exactly where you need them to be. An extra 1/4" of play will suddenly make a huge difference if a form shifts or if they pull a brace to finish and the core moves.Keep in mind there are huge differences in concrete contractors. Small guys who pride themselves on quality won't be a big problem. However small guys who bid strictly on low price and big contractors who do a lot of commercial work are "hit it and git it". They aren't going to care about your stuff. If it's slowing them down, it's going to go. "Not my problem... the rail guy will deal with it..." They are going to pour huge areas all at once, and they aren't going to have time to F with your stuff. All they are going to care about is if the finish on the flat work is good enough, and if you can't drill the cores because they had to take down your crap that was in the way... "Oh well, sucks to be you". Take it from someone who did concrete for a lot of years. We ran into all these sorts of issues when we had to do the walks and such and other guys were doing the other crete. We'd have everything setup for a pour the next day only to come back in the morning and find all our forms or braces torn up because the curb guy didn't want to F with working around it on a commercial job..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:1)do you really want sleeves that penetrate allthe way through, or just holes in the top of the pour to set the rails into?2)they make steel clips(one company i recall is named caddy ) that grip the pipe and can be nailed to the form..but these forms are not flat, they are sloped like the stair...hmmm..check the specs , ask the engineer if a steel sleeve may be left in the pour, much better than stripping sleeves..if it must be stripped, pipe hanger mfrs(such as elcen ) sell 22 gauge sleeves..best bet may be beer to the carpenter foreman..maybe tiewire to the rebar is the best, but if its a full penetration the bottom must be mitered to the slope..and if the bottom comes loose, or gets kicked( those laborers and their sense of humor) you have no sleeve..and you need to be there during the pour..
Reply:Originally Posted by fortyonethirtyThanks for all the tips! Just to clarify, I don't intend to remove the sleeves, I plan to tape the ends shut and leave them in permanently. They will be 2" grey pvc conduit, and the posts will be 1.5" round tube. I've already made up the cleats with the pvc attached. I used 1x4 for the cleat and attached the pvc with three wood screws which seemed to hold pretty well, and sealed the top tightly against the wood, and then put tape over the screws to keep the mud out until they need to be unscrewed. Most of the sleeves are going to be placed at the landings, of which there are way too many (stupid architect), so most are cut square, but I had to make up a few with angle cuts to match the slope.Does anyone know of a good reason the pvc should not remain in the concrete?I've had holes core drilled before, but was in a flat slab and the core rig had plenty of room. I did not think it would be possible in this situation. Has anyone had holes put in on stairs with a curb before?
Reply:Originally Posted by fortyonethirtyThanks for all the tips! I've had holes core drilled before, but was in a flat slab and the core rig had plenty of room. I did not think it would be possible in this situation. Has anyone had holes put in on stairs with a curb before?
Reply:1)please...wtf is a raking hob....? i guess a sloping hoblike thing? lol...2) op if the ramp you are attaching the rails to is structural, and it sounds like a stair stringer , they may tell you(again check the specs) you cant coredrill..Last edited by weldbead; 03-29-2012 at 07:59 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbead1)please...wtf is a raking hob....?
Reply:LOL,Brett, forgive me, i've had a few (what finisher hasn't by now?). But "over here", we don't know what "hobs" and "rakes" are.I assume you mean stemwalls or curbs and slope or pitch.I'm not busting your balls, or hitting you on the chops, or whatever you might say.I know you're wise beyond your years, and put the "pee" in professionalism, but lets do a little math:Scenario A: labor to be on site and wet-set "cans" = $200 cost of "cans" = $50 cost to be able to laugh all the way to the bank = pricele$$Scenario B: labor to core drill for bollards or uprights = $300 (you're gonna be there awhile) core drill rental with bit = $200 (on the cheap side) I didn't include the beer for "finisher help", that's just a given Lincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:Originally Posted by dubl_tLOL,Brett, forgive me, i've had a few (what finisher hasn't by now?). But "over here", we don't know what "hobs" and "rakes" are.I assume you mean stemwalls or curbs and slope or pitch.I'm not busting your balls, or hitting you on the chops, or whatever you might say.I know you're wise beyond your years, and put the "pee" in professionalism, but lets do a little math:Scenario A: labor to be on site and wet-set "cans" = $200 cost of "cans" = $50 cost to be able to laugh all the way to the bank = pricele$$Scenario B: labor to core drill for bollards or uprights = $300 (you're gonna be there awhile) core drill rental with bit = $200 (on the cheap side) I didn't include the beer for "finisher help", that's just a given
Reply:this hob may be a beam, they dont like the rebar cut hence the restriction against coring..a pvc sleeve would contribute the same nothing to the structure as the cored hole, so why should it not be acceptable?sometimes a sleeve is required have a rebar diamond laid around it tied into the regular mat..sometimes if a penetration is required and theres no sleeve the slab gets xrayed first to ensure no rebar is cut..
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbeadthis...yada yada yada cut..
Reply:guy asks a legit question about something he hasn't done before, no problem..i've shared my experiences to help him know where things can go wrong quick with sleeves, and when that happens things can get expensive quick...i dont know if he has four or sixty five posts to set..and twice recommended he look at the specs..which may or may not take precedence over the drawings..i've worked contracts for n y state and the drawings took precedence over the specs..We often cast steel pipe sleeves in for railings, just cut to sit at the right elevation then when the railing shows up you weld it on. You can use plastic sleeves and cut them out later to grout in a railing, this gives you more leeway in your locations and is easier to set as they pour.
Reply:Okay, thanks for all the replies. There are 24 posts. Core drilling estimate was $600 + I'm poor = got to find a cheaper way. Time I've got.I think I've got the placement of the sleeves pretty well under control and I've explained my plan to the concrete foreman, and he said he understood. He said it should be no prob to strip the cleats because they are pretty much the same as his cleats minus the three screws into the pvc.The main concern I have now is you guys make it sound like the pvc will not be able to hold the grout and it will slip out. Has anyone ever had this happen or know of a situation when this happened?I'm trying to image what it would take to pull one of these sleeves out and it seems like it would be a real PITA. So difficult in fact, that it would seem to be more than enough to hold a handrail post in. Will these handrails ever get enough of an uplift load to pull them up? I doubt it, but perhaps there is some situation I have not considered.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:Fortyonethirty,you may be right regarding the pvc, and no, I don't see any uplifting force either. I know we poured a short retaining wall for the city of Vancouver with 150 sleeves for handrail, and the carpenters used pvc. After the pour, the inspector demanded the pvc be removed due to lack of bonding and possible shrinkage. Our laborers finally resorted to core drilling a slightly larger hole as the pvc wouldn't come out. This was with VanLom Concrete in Portland. I can let you talk to the laborer that worked on it.....he's still pissed Didn't the finisher foreman offer any suggestions?If you fill your screw heads with grease the concrete won't stick to 'em, works better than covering with tape.Last edited by dubl_t; 04-03-2012 at 09:34 AM.Lincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:Originally Posted by fortyonethirtyOkay, thanks for all the replies. There are 24 posts. Core drilling estimate was $600 + I'm poor = got to find a cheaper way. Time I've got.I think I've got the placement of the sleeves pretty well under control and I've explained my plan to the concrete foreman, and he said he understood. He said it should be no prob to strip the cleats because they are pretty much the same as his cleats minus the three screws into the pvc.The main concern I have now is you guys make it sound like the pvc will not be able to hold the grout and it will slip out. Has anyone ever had this happen or know of a situation when this happened?I'm trying to image what it would take to pull one of these sleeves out and it seems like it would be a real PITA. So difficult in fact, that it would seem to be more than enough to hold a handrail post in. Will these handrails ever get enough of an uplift load to pull them up? I doubt it, but perhaps there is some situation I have not considered.
Reply:Originally Posted by BrettWhat about putting a cut up the side , and taping it so the cocrete does not ingress ?Will make them easier to remove and or smash out ??
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWSometimes. We used to score the PVC pipe about 80% of the way thru in 3 or 4 spots with the table saw and then tape the outside. ( Tape keeps crete out of the cuts) When done, simply take a cheap wood chisel and they will split right along the score lines. If you make 2 cuts sometimes it's still hard to get them out because there's no room for them to slip inside easily, especially with small dia pipe where there's very little flex in the pipe. If you make 3 cuts however, the pieces easily will move to the center and can be removed without damaging the crete.
Reply:Originally Posted by BrettI certainly wouldnt be happy with the PVC staying from a Builders POV. |
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发表于 2021-8-31 23:54:40