Large square layout

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i want to hear some method to layout on a floor a large L square over 30' or 40' what do you use, chalk line ? 100ft wind up tape ? laser line ? and how do verefy that after to make sure its square ? i know trigs and pythagore by heart and have no probleme with layout on a table normaly but its the first time i have to do something large like that and i dont use those long tape, laser or chalk line often! Always searching for new good accurate method!Thanks!Calculator > Bevel Square
Reply:if you got 3,4,5 down, you are in shape.  30,  40, 50 and you are in like flynExperience is something you get right after you need it
Reply:Yep, 3,4,5 or any multiples thereof. One leg of the angle would be 3 or 6, 9, 12, etc., the second leg 4 or 8, 12, 16, etc. and the hypotenuse would be 5, or 10, 15, 20, etc. Works well, but make sure you get an accurate reading on the lengths of each leg. Its the old formula for a right angle A2+B2=C2 with the 2's being squared factors. In the 3,4,5 version it works out to A2 or 3 X 3=9, B2 or 4 X 4=16, C2 or 5 X 5=25.....9+16=25. If its a hot day, or cold day for that matter, go with a 100 ft. nylon tape to offset an chance of shrinkage/expansion from a steel tape.Lincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:I use a pencil, 25ft tape, chalk line and helper. The helper is optional for 3 4 5 feet but I usually do 6 8 10 feet.
Reply:I picked up one of those Stanley laser squares a few years back for doing quick layout for basement walls. The nice thing is it allows me to quickly adjust things without having to redo all my layout if things don't line up the way I need them to. Last time I checked, I believe mine was within 1/4" on the 25' measurement using 3-4-5 on a 20' long wall, so it's close enough for general layout. Saves a ton of hassle when doing things by yourself on a concrete floor.I've seen better ones out there, but I think I picked this one up on sale for $29 or so and normally they run about $39.http://www.stanleytools.com/default....r+Level+Square.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:thanks guys, i was looking on youtube some field guy show method with the traditionnal level laser line and that make me wondering for sure its an expensive tool about 300 to 500$ for those Hilti and Stabila laser line but im wondering if some of you guys who are working in a trade shop are using that kind of tool ? or its always done by tape and chalk line?Calculator > Bevel Square
Reply:The cheap replacement for the laser level is a small tube of water.I use 3/8" diameter clear plastic tube.  Fill the tube with water and take care to remove all the air bubbles.  Pour out about two feet of water, then hold the ends of the tube next to each other.  The surface of the water in each end of the tube should settle out so they are exactly level (if not, check for air bubbles).  These two water surfaces will be level if the tubes are right next to each other or hundreds of feet apart.The downside with the tube is it takes two guys to run it.  One guy to adjust the tube so the water level is on some reference mark, and a guy at the other end making measurements.  You can cheat a little by using a large diameter bucket on the one end.  When moving the measuring end up and down the water level in the bucket should change very little.  Set the bucket height once and that's your reference.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:I use a 25' tape measure and calculate right triangle legs as described above for stuff like the pole barn floor layout.  Have also used a 100' tape measure to measure diagonals - works great too.One thing to bear in mind is tolerance.  How significant is being off by 1/8"?  Be realistic.  In the case of the pole barn, being off by a fair bit was just not a problem.Hobart LX235Victor 250 Oxy-Acetylene Rig (welding and cutting)Bobcat 773F-350, 1999, 4x4, 16' 10K# trailerOutdoor Wood Burner - 10 cords/year
Reply:Originally Posted by LayoutManthanks guys, i was looking on youtube some field guy show method with the traditionnal level laser line and that make me wondering for sure its an expensive tool about 300 to 500$ for those Hilti and Stabila laser line but im wondering if some of you guys who are working in a trade shop are using that kind of tool ? or its always done by tape and chalk line?
Reply:Originally Posted by DSW +/- 1/16" in 1000 ft. on course setting, less than a 1/64" on fine over 100'.
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88Just curious about something here...+/- 1/16" over 1000' is more accurate than -1/64" in 100'.  Is that a typo, or am I misreading something?
Reply:I'm going by memory, so I might be off. The old literature used to list it in fractions of an inch over distance for accuracy. The current literature lists a horizontal accuracy of 10 arcseconds over 1300 ft.  That's .00277 deg... You do the math... Last edited by DSW; 04-11-2012 at 11:30 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88Just curious about something here...+/- 1/16" over 1000' is more accurate than -1/64" in 100'.  Is that a typo, or am I misreading something?
Reply:hey stick man, im in the market for a new laser,   how do you like that combo?Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:3,4,5 right triangle and diagonal cross dimensions
Reply:If you are going for level, a standard optical surveyors transit is pretty good, get a good tape on the spotting stick and shoot the same measurement on the stickExperience is something you get right after you need it
Reply:Originally Posted by Dualiehey stick man, im in the market for a new laser,   how do you like that combo?
Reply:Originally Posted by trouble007He's talking about the accuracy of the laser level at different ranges i believe.
Reply:I think the OP was originally talking about a square on a floor and Im guessing its a square to another wall. I use a HILTI for leveling cielings and plumbing walls.It could be used somehow to get the laser to draw a square on the floor but, that would be too much trouble to set up especially when piece working. So, point is, the 6 8 10 method is the best way to lay out a square on the floor. Use a pencil or crayon, tape at least 12ft , chalk line and helper. Helper is optional but requires technique. I did try using the laser on the floor just now but what a hassle.As for leveling, the  rotary lasers are nice for rooms/wharehouse over 4,000 square feet. My little HILTI works but needs to be relocated as compared to the rotary type for larger rooms . Someone mentioned the water level. It works pretty good if you use antifreeze (snowing today) and you can see it better than water but thats been outdated since lasers became available.
Reply:I just need a laser thats daylight detectable to 300'  and accurate to 1/16" in the same distance.     Im going to use it for leveling steel more than ditch digging.   I have use Trimble stuff and its great for dirt work but the leica is always been top shelf in the precision world.I was toying with the idea of getting one that was capable of setting slope but came to my senses and realized i can do the math in my head if that ever needed to happen, which was once in the last 15 years.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Dualie, Ive used a TOPCON rotary laser that has a DITHER mode.The Lieca and SPECTRA probably use it also. Its really useful for long distance and when you need to see it right now. How it works is, you carry a target mirror thats kinda like your detector/story pole and when the laser senses it, the rotary dithers and locks onto the mirror instead of rotate. This makes it highly visible even in daylight compared to rotate. Take away the mirror and it rotates. The mirror isnt as delicate as it sounds but its a hassle to climb down a scaffold to pick up if you drop. I dont use a story pole for what I do. I use a lanyard and they come with magnets. Hope I made sense.
Reply:well if i had an unlimited budget i would get a leica absolute tracker.  it would make doing crazy handrails and other complex layouts a breeze.   but i would also need a computer programmer/wizard to make it pay for itself because i sure as hell don't have the Patience for it.for now i think i will settle for a rotory to set grade and levels.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:I like to check the calibration of any laser I use before I start a job. What I do for PLUMB is drop a blumb bob and align the the laser to it. I didnt have a way to check for level because aligning to a spirit level would be only as accurate as the level but, someone mentioned the water level . The water level is perfect for checking the calibration of my spirit level and my laser . Im sure NIST probably uses some sort of oil level also. Anyway, my point is, a laser out of calibration will cost you time and money and the plumb bob/water level are the best way to verify accuracy.
Reply:Don't take this the wrong way but has anybody else noticed a guy with the name "Layoutman" is asking how to layout?  3,4,5 and multiples checked by cross diagonals is as simple as it get's and proven over time. beyond that the transit is also a good way to swing angles. It would take a lot to explain here but do you know how to bisect angles by swinging arcs with a chalk and then connecting the intersections to form square 90 deg. corners? also a good way without purchasing big money equipment. Now as far as builders levels and lasers they work great for up and down leveling."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:I have a question for Layoutman, I was wondering, like whats your favorite button on  a calculator/computer/tables whatever for SIN COS or TAN. I was just wondering.A 30' tape, a chalk line and a neat homemade string holder has always done the trick. It worked on the pyramids, Greece and everywhere else in the world for centuries. No batteries needed, will show up in the light and is as accurate as you are.CERTIFICATIONS:7018M- H.V.O10718M- H.V.O11018M- H.V.O9N10- H.V.O71T-1-HYM- H.O.V100S1 PULSE ARC 0,035- H.O.V100S1 PULSE ARC 0.045- H.O.VER70S-3 PULSE ARC 0.035 H.O.VER70S-3 PULSE ARC 0.045 H.O.VER5554- H.O.V
Reply:Time is money.   Don't have time to screw around with 300' of vinyl tubing to level heights.And after the 10th time in the day you have to go and fix your string line because one of the other trades broke it you start to get really annoyed.I do however keep a couple of rolls of piano wire around.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.