Attempt to Reclaim 7018 Weld Results

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For anyone who may have followed the "7018 Rod Oven" thread http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=25899 and cares to see the real results of attempting to reclaim 7018 rod that belongs in the scrap bin here's a few photos following David R's suggestion to break the test welds apart which I did this afternoon.I'm not going to copy them here so you'll have to go to the other thread to read them but the photos to follow show the characteristics that MoodRise posted and I confirmed in posts #46 and #47 in the original "7018 Rod Oven" thread.  The photos don't show as well as in person but the porosity is very evident throughout the weld and particularly in the original tack.I'll post the 4-3/4" forbidden vertical down photos in this first post and then the 3" horizontal in a second so stand by for the second post.The original vertical down weld from the "7018 Rod Oven" threadIt took several wacks with the 10# Up and Down wrench (previously listed as only 8#) to get the weld to yield and the first pieces to lay flat.Front side after pounding the two pieces flat.Breaking the weld.You can see the narrow weld deposit result of a vertical down.  Weld porosity is there but not clear in the photo.Stand by for post #2.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Post #2 showing the horizontal weld.Again, the original weld from the "7018 Rod Oven" post.Beginning the break.Continuing the break.The break complete.  Again, it's not very clear in the photos but some porosity spans the entire width of the weld with porosity in some areas quite severe as in the original tack.  Although the 3" horizontal weld fill was considerably wider than the vertical down, it pulled apart with what I would consider minimal effort with a 10" adjustable wrench.  Certainly less than I would have expected.So now I know first hand the futility of attempting to reclaim 7018 rod and the resulting welds if used and as such I'm going to consider this a good test and deposit the rod where it belongs.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Why are you welding downhill with a 7018?Proud to be a UNION worker.  Better pay, better benefits, better work environment.  UA Unions = working for the working class!!
Reply:Now, Do one with fresh rods.  It may be a problem with the weldor?Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidWhy are you welding downhill with a 7018?
Reply:If you forget the porosity, and look at the vertical down weld, it didn't get into the base metal much  Eh?What  happened to the piece that had the V up and V down on the same set of cupons?  That is the one I want to see destroyed.  Nice demo and I appreciate your time.Maybe we can all learn.Those welds were outside corners.  If you did a fillet (T), it would be harder to break.Thanks DuaneDavid   <~~~ Insert big cheesy grin here.Last edited by David R; 12-14-2008 at 09:57 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidWhy are you welding downhill with a 7018?
Reply:I really wasn't trying to impune.  But true to the scientific process, you must have a control before you can form an evaluation of problem of porosity and blame it on the reclaimed 7018 rods.  To establish a control, fresh hot rods should be used the way they are prescribed to obtain a bench mark for comparison.  Any porosity obtained could be for a variety of factors:  contaminated steel, wind blowing, or operator error.  While exact conditions are not possible to replicate, it would be nice to see if the welds from a new box of rods held up to scrutiny before we can blame the reclaimed rods..Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by David RIf you forget the porosity, and look at the vertical down weld, it didn't get into the base metal much  Eh?
Reply:Originally Posted by David RIf you forget the porosity.........
Reply:BTW, I've done a lot of xray welds that weren't considered to be "fresh" by ASME codes.  Moreso now than in the past, all jobs didn't have any sort of rod ovens.Proud to be a UNION worker.  Better pay, better benefits, better work environment.  UA Unions = working for the working class!!
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldI really wasn't trying to impune.  But true to the scientific process, you must have a control before you can form an evaluation of problem of porosity and blame it on the reclaimed 7018 rods.  To establish a control, fresh hot rods should be used the way they are prescribed to obtain a bench mark for comparison.  Any porosity obtained could be for a variety of factors:  contaminated steel, wind blowing, or operator error.  While exact conditions are not possible to replicate, it would be nice to see if the welds from a new box of rods held up to scrutiny before we can blame the reclaimed rods..
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55 ...So now I know first hand the futility of attempting to reclaim 7018 rod and the resulting welds if used and as such I'm going to consider this a good test and deposit the rod where it belongs.
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepBefore we condemn reconditioning, we have to be sure that target temperature, time, and air flow were reached during the cook out.
Reply:*   If I were being tested with old rod and vertical down, in the plate prep I would consider that most importantly the "inside edge" of the joint must be clean and the back side adjacent to the joint needs to be clean. And even then, the open root will allow impurities to be included, so...open root might need to be back gouged to remove impurities, then rewelded. *    The old rod and anything downhill, by all means, had everything to do with it. A failure in practice, to avoid a failure when it counts!  *    But it depends on the initial rod quality and where it was stored, I had a good rod that was tacked to a 1/2" flat washer in a pencil holder on my desk for ten years (I know, I am a weird clutterbug) before i got an urge to snap the washer off and burn it...it was poetry in motion! Just gorgeous!! It was a 7018 rod, Hobart I think.Thanks Duane!City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Provided the flux hasn't physically broken down, they can be baked out again.  We have even rebaked them for nuclear plants.  I believe they called for 4 hours at 550 degrees, but I can't remember exactly.Proud to be a UNION worker.  Better pay, better benefits, better work environment.  UA Unions = working for the working class!!
Reply:Originally Posted by tanglediver*   If I were being tested with old rod and vertical down, in the plate prep I would consider that most importantly the "inside edge" of the joint must be clean and the back side adjacent to the joint needs to be clean. And even then, the open root will allow impurities to be included, so...open root might need to be back gouged to remove impurities, then rewelded. *    The old rod and anything downhill, by all means, had everything to do with it. A failure in practice, to avoid a failure when it counts!  *    But it depends on the initial rod quality and where it was stored, I had a good rod that was tacked to a 1/2" flat washer in a pencil holder on my desk for ten years (I know, I am a weird clutterbug) before i got an urge to snap the washer off and burn it...it was poetry in motion! Just gorgeous!! It was a 7018 rod, Hobart I think.Thanks Duane!
Reply:Slag running off, Slag coming off HARD and porosity are all also signs of a long arc.I don't know how long your arc was but I have found the above from experience.Try it and you will see.When running 7018, I use a lot of heat, the top end of the recommended heat for that size rod and push the rod almost into the leading edge of the puddle.  I did a horizontal weld on a cell tower using 5/32 8018 @ 190 amps (max for that size) and it worked great.  These were UT tested and passed.  I was welding 1 1/4" thick to 1 1/2" plate V bevel 15* on the top side.Having an arc force setting on really smooth also helps for me with dry rod.  The instructions for my Ranger 250 say set on smooth.  If the Lo Hy rod is a little damp and it sticks, turn the arc force up until it doesn't stick.Good stuff DuaneDavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:This has been interesting in both threads but I won't comment about 7018 except to say I have run enough of it to know what it will do, both old and brand new.What I want to know is why you don't give that pore ol' hammer a new handle?
Reply:Originally Posted by Craig in DenverDuane:Looks like a tough crowd tonight.
Reply:looks like that handle is about to break faster than those welds.The welds certainly go to show the in experience that you can have good looking welds that would never pass a cert.Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:Post totally screwed up by Mod by accident.    ( I hit the wrong button)OOPs Duane.......My apologies.....DavidLast edited by David R; 12-15-2008 at 09:58 PM.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardBoth reasonable logical questions. Again Why?
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55Post totally screwed up by Mod by accident.    ( I hit the wrong button)OOPs Duane.......My apologies.....David
Reply:OK, let's try this again - best as I can remember. Originally Posted by David RSlag running off, Slag coming off HARD and porosity are all also signs of a long arc.I don't know how long your arc was but I have found the above from experience.Try it and you will see.7018 is available in vert up or down..http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Cat...t.aspx?p=12739
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55roflMakes me think you should be sayin " so solly".
Reply:Originally Posted by qaqc7018 is available in vert up or down..
Reply:Originally Posted by qaqc7018 is available in vert up or down..http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Cat...t.aspx?p=12739
Reply:Originally Posted by Engloid ...I have yet to see anybody consistently make good downhill welds with a 7018.
Reply:One guy on here had certs for down hill.  I don't know what process.  I took the time to learn up hill.  Good thing too.Downhill for sheet metal sure, but 6013 or 6010 is used for that.   I only do exhaust down hill with my little mig.  Its the balls.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by David ROne guy on here had certs for down hill.
Reply:verticle down will have a 4 in the EXX4X ....i have not seen any with that number 4.....why is that ? what rod has a 4
Reply:There is more 7018 downhill going on than you guys realize, just about every big oil tank, like at the refineries and such has had its vertical seams welded downhanded and then back-gouged. Those tankies really know their stuff, I had the occasion to work on a steel smokestack and that's how we built the rings.- If you can jump across it you can weld it!  - anonymous old boilermaker
Reply:While working in a quarry I did a good deal of downhill with 7018. Theres really no other way to do some of the repair work you need to do. And if you ever been in the processing end of a quarry, you know crap welds arent going to cut it.
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidRiding a bicycle across the country is possible also...but most people would never be able to do it.I have yet to see anybody consistently make good downhill welds with a 7018.
Reply:So where are the pictures of this elusive beast in the wild?Proud to be a UNION worker.  Better pay, better benefits, better work environment.  UA Unions = working for the working class!!
Reply:Well it is pretty elusiveLast edited by Kangi; 12-19-2008 at 10:47 PM.Reason: typo- If you can jump across it you can weld it!  - anonymous old boilermaker
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidSo where are the pictures of this elusive beast in the wild?
Reply:What advantage would you have welding a 7018 downhill?Proud to be a UNION worker.  Better pay, better benefits, better work environment.  UA Unions = working for the working class!!
Reply:Originally Posted by EngloidWhat advantage would you have welding a 7018 downhill?
Reply:Originally Posted by jotramverticle down will have a 4 in the EXX4X ....i have not seen any with that number 4.....why is that ? what rod has a 4
Reply:OK - Some re-tests completed using the 'questionable' 7018 rod and different welder settings.  Rod was not re-baked before test due to rod oven in use.There will be 3 posts with the first being simply a horizontal fillet, the second a destructive test attempt on the horizontal and the third an overview of several vertical uphill from OMG!!! to so-so (remember, my uphill leaves alot to be desired).Post #1 - Horizontal filletAmps: 165DIG: 10Polarity: EPTemperature: 73*FHumidity: 86%Skies: sunny to partly cloudyRadio station: K-LOVEPulse: 60BP: ???1/8" 7018 'test' rod from previously baked batch.180 SD settings of EP, 165A and DIG at 10.  Have I mentioned I love this machine!1/4" test pieces preped for welding with ground bevel on edge.Weld with slag that still chips off like concrete.  As for arc length, couldn't shove the rod in fast enough.6" weld that took one whole rod cleaned off.Post #2 will show destruction attempt.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Post #2 - horizontal destruction attempt.Start of bend test.Darn weld won't break.Backside of bend test.Weld side of bend test.Casualty of destructive bend test.  New candidate for TIG repair project.Post #3 will be several vertical up welds.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Post #3 - Vertical UpRod #2.  OMG!!!!  Bottom is @ 165A, DIG @ 10.  Top is 130A, DIG @ 10.  Both blew thru and couldn't feed the rod in fast enough.  Edge on weld piece was beveled same as horizontal weld test.Back side showing blow thru and heat.Rod #3.  130A, DIG @ 7.  Travel slowed down as I went resulting in excessive bead build-up and eventual blow-thru.Rod #4.  110A, DIG @ 7.  Better but still needs alot of work.Back side of third vertical up test weld.That's it.  Next test will be with fresh rod (still didn't get any) and I've got more photos if there's anything anyone wants to see (material prep, slag, etc.).  I tried but couldn't break any of the welds with a 24" pipe wrench without moving that new workbench around so I'll have to cut them apart to see anything else.Thanks for looking and I look forward to your comments and suggestions and I'll keep practicing my uphill.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Try Dig 1-3 and see the difference on flat welds.   NO spatter, Smooooth welds Wider less penetrating bead.  Maybe 3-5 for vertical up.  It took me a long time to figure that out even though its in the owners manual for my Lincoln stick welders.Lo Hy Low dig6010/11 higher dig.6013 or 7014 DCEN med to high dig.  I call it arc force.Higher arc force makes 7018 act more like 6010Lower arc force makes 6010/11 more like 7018Your welds look great including the last vertical up.  Put a weave over top of that same settings.  You might surprise your self.  7018 will weld at 165 amps.  I ran one 1/8" stick flat by accident when running 5/32 @ 190 amps.  It did weld, but got some spatter.  NOT a good practice.Thanks for all the tests and time.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by David RTry Dig 1-3 and see the difference on flat welds.   NO spatter, Smooooth welds Wider less penetrating bead.  Maybe 3-5 for vertical up.  It took me a long time to figure that out even though its in the owners manual for my Lincoln stick welders.Lo Hy Low dig6010/11 higher dig.6013 or 7014 DCEN med to high dig.  I call it arc force.Higher arc force makes 7018 act more like 6010Lower arc force makes 6010/11 more like 7018Your welds look great including the last vertical up.  Put a weave over top of that same settings.  You might surprise your self.  7018 will weld at 165 amps.  I ran one 1/8" stick flat by accident when running 5/32 @ 190 amps.  It did weld, but got some spatter.  NOT a good practice.Thanks for all the tests and time.David
Reply:Duane, David R, and Denrep (The 3 D's):I appreciate your exploring and testing the rules. I enjoy watching 'youse guys' playing around.Duane:Thanks for 'fessin' up' about the EP / EN. Somewhere in my past, I read that stick was DCEN, same as TIG. Recently, I've relearned that stick is 'posed to be DC+ most of the time. Mosta my stickin' has been DCEN (in error).  My justification is: If you have a TIG, why inna world would ya stick!?!? (In my world, pretty is better than fast. Yes, I'm leaning; each process has its advantages.) Soooooooooo's, you ain't the only one.Last edited by Craig in Denver; 12-21-2008 at 12:06 AM.9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250
Reply:Duane, you are a screwball!  I can say that to you only.When run 7018 on DCEN, it runs like CRAP.  Spatter,  crappy welds and it acts like the arc force is turned all the way up.  But I gotta say NICE welds for having the polarity azz backwards!I have done it enough times that I recignize it when welding, so I am just as stoopid.  You are a REAL MAN for admitting you screwed up.  Enjoy the day DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by Craig in DenverDuane, David R, and Denrep (The 3 D's):I appreciate your exploring and testing the rules. I enjoy watching 'youse guys' playing around.Duane:Thanks for 'fessin' up' about the EP / EN. Somewhere in my past, I read that stick was DCEN, same as TIG. Recently, I've relearned that stick is 'posed to be DC+ most of the time. Mosta my stickin' has been DCEN (in error).  My justification is: If you have a TIG, why inna world would ya stick!?!? (In my world, pretty is better than fast. Yes, I'm leaning; each process has its advantages.) Soooooooooo's, you ain't the only one.