Ultimate mixer

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Honestly officer it all started innocently enough. I was just looking for the ultimate mixer. Oh you want to whole story. Well here goes.  The quest for the Ultimate Gas Mixer  Well being the middle of a upgrade in welding equipment has sent me on the search once again for the best way to supply inert gases to my welders. The first attempt had mixed results. It worked kinda sorta but not as well as I would of liked.  I started out with two flow meters straight on the tanks and a 50' hose to the cart with the wire feeders on it. Lesson #1 the hose contains a large amount of gas that wants to spew out all at once when the valve on the feeder opens. Oops.Next attempt leave regulator on tanks and move flow gauges to cart (which means adding another hose the already large umbilical running to cart). This seems to help but I still have problems with the start of the welds with the S-64 and Dimension 400 running solid wire. It takes a little while for it to settle down and make a good weld. Never really figured this problem out even after adding a valve on the feeder to limit the rush. Finally decide it's a function of the old welder.  But it's out with the old and in with the new (well new to me). This time I'm going for light, portable, easy to change over, and space saving. Luck has allowed me to get some pretty good deals off ebay in the last couple of months making this possible.   Now how to get the gas to the cart/welder/suitcase feeder. Idea what about a hose reel. A quick check shows the HF now has there 50' industrial hose reels on for $90. Hmm cheaper than I paid for the 3 I have now. Even more interesting is they show a torch version for $129. Hmmmmm. More thinking. What if I convert two standard reels to welding leads. Hmmmmmm. Interesting. Now what else can I do. Lets see we've got a torch reel, two welding lead reels, and a inert gas reel. Might even add a second torch reel. Now where to mount them. What about over the welders? Hmmm. By george I think I've got it. Let's make a mount up there to hold 5 reels and take it from there. Now what to make it out of. Search the place over no 8" channel. Hmm. What about the pile of model A frames over in the corner that might work.   (See first pic below)  Now the old mixer had a kludge of a decent Victor flow gauge with a old flow meter I had laying around from some auction in the past. I never could figure out a accurate way of calibrating the old flow meter. So research flow meters. Wow those are pricey.  Hmm. Lets see whats on ebay. Hmm. Here's a bunch of old flow meters from a scrap place. Research what info I can find from the pictures and sure enough at least a couple of them seem to be about the right size. Get those in and test them. Yep two of them are the right size and seem like they would work. Look at hose reel and think for a minute. Hmm you know it's going to take a lot of gas to purge the new mix going from Mig to Tig. Hmmmm. What about a second reel just for Tig and one for Mig. Hmmm. If I do that I really should have some more flow gauges. Let's see what ebay has to offer. Wow nice set with at least one meter having the right tube. Hmm. Maybe the smaller tube could be used for Helium. Research again. Sure enough they'd work. Get second set of flow meters in. They're in much nicer condition than first set and same brand. Now I can mix and match parts for a good set. Wow look at all those flow meters.  (to be continued) Attached ImagesMillermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Now how to build the mount for the gauges chosen. Hmm. Well 1 1/2" angle might make a good choice. Hmm what spacing for the gauges. Lets leave 1 1/4" space between for strap I know I've got so I can label everything. Hmm. Maybe I should measure the strap to see exactly how wide it is. Naaa it can't be that bad I'll just drill the holes a little oversize to allow for adjustment. Cut angle, low out holes, drill holes. Hmm somethings not right here. Oops messed on on the first spacing of the second angle. Back to the saw for another angle. Lay out holes and double check spacing. Everythings right so lets drill. (see first pic).   Ok. Bolt up meters to angle square it up and everythings going just great. (see second pic) Now for the strap to go between the gauges. 1" x 1/8" is just right for the top and bottom. Tack that in place. Now lets get the 1 1/4" x 1/8" strap. Yep that's it cut it to length and deburr. Now lets get these tacked up. It'll be a piece of cake. Hmm. Why isn't the strap fitting between the gauges. Check with tape the gauges are spaced right. Check strap that looks right. Look closer wait a minute why is the strap measuring 1 3/8". (note to self when you think it might be a good idea to check actual dimension of stock don't be lazy just do it) (second note to self don't be so cheap and get the new tape down from the wall when the old one has the marks half worn off). (must punish self now by grinding 1/8" from all 5 straps). Grind and grind and fit. Now they all fit and are in place. Whew.   Wait a minute are those the guys in white coats coming. Well can't stick around. I'll add more when they let me out of the room again.  Attached ImagesMillermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Uh..............I hear modern medicine has developed many new treatments, and all sorta pills, for your condition Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammUh..............I hear modern medicine has developed many new treatments, and all sorta pills, for your condition
Reply:It's a soda fountain for weldors... handy for you, well done Irish, Samms  just miffed 'cus ya' did it in Texas. Of course, he is a stick afficienado,  and thus life is less complex. probably a no smoking sign would be prudent?Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Originally Posted by PapaLionIt's a soda fountain for weldors... handy for you, well done Irish, Samms  just miffed 'cus ya' did it in Texas. Of course, he is a stick afficienado,  and thus life is less complex. probably a no smoking sign would be prudent?
Reply:Fittings have become a real nightmare.  Stuff is put together from parts supplied by vendors all over the world, and metric/sae is mixed on the SAME machine.Wheat destined for hay is being cut here now, but the wheat destined for grain won't be cut for quite a while.The gas stuff looks like it's coming together.  I'd be thrilled to be able to run gas, BUT I NEED WALLS AND A ROOF"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammFittings have become a real nightmare.  Stuff is put together from parts supplied by vendors all over the world, and metric/sae is mixed on the SAME machine.Wheat destined for hay is being cut here now, but the wheat destined for grain won't be cut for quite a while.The gas stuff looks like it's coming together.  I'd be thrilled to be able to run gas, BUT I NEED WALLS AND A ROOF
Reply:Originally Posted by PapaLion. probably a no smoking sign would be prudent?
Reply:Irish,Lot of hard work and time/effort went into that project.Actually, in discussing gas blending with Smith, the process is considerably more involved than it appears on the surface.  Their mixers take a gases' specific gravity into account when sizing the orifices for the different mixers.  Than and how the gases are directed during the "mixing" process.It would be interesting to put a gas analyzer on your output stream to determine the accuracy of the system.  People, in the know, that I have talked to claim it's impossible to accurately blend welding gasses with a Y setup.Or you could had just gone this route: Attached ImagesSyncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Irish,The Thermco mixer shown in the left photo mixes Argon/CO2 in any proportion from 0-100% CO2.  That is the mixer I use most frequently.  I feed it from a 330 Argon and a 50# CO2 bottle.  I does not have a built in flowmeter.  Delivers mixed gas at 50PSI (internally adjustable) to a Smith flowmeter which I mounted on a magnetic base.  That flowmeter has a short (6' ) hose with a quick disconnect.  Set the flowmeter on the mig of choice, plug in the gas, set flow, weld.  Works really well (the mixer) when going from short circuit to spray.  Especially with some of the gas mixes called for in pulsed spray.I have had the output (mixed gas) checked and it's always been within 1% of what was dialed in.The two Smith mixers are used for blending Argon/Helium and Argon/Oxygen.  They, as you probably know, have their own built in flowmeters.  Mixers require the use of straight regulators, not combo regualator/flowmeter.Keep us updated about how your system works for you.  I really like the hose reel idea.  Will have to check out putting a reel on the Thermco system.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Sundown if I may ask where did you find that mixer and what was the price? Thanks...
Reply:Down,The Thermco mixer (Argon/CO2) has a retail price of about $3,500.Before you fall out of the chair, let me assure you I didn't pay nearly that much for it.Bought it off e-bay.  It as a "NEW", but old stock item.  A major company had purchased the unit and never used it.  Sat on a shelf for a couple years.  Turned it over to a wholesaler who listed it.  Got it for considerably less than half of retail.It really is a very sophisticated unit, compared to the Smith mixers.  Ultra high quality components in the build.  Has internal regulators for both gases.  Gas is delivered from the regulators on the bottles at 125PSI.  Internal regulators step it down to 100PSI where the mixing occurs.  It then stores a small quanity of mixed gas.  That mix is then further regulated down to 50 PSI (internally adjustable) which is the regulated pressure used by the Smith multi-gas flowmeter.Actually, when you go inside the unit (required to adjust the output pressure), you begin to see why it sells for what it does.The Smith mixers retail for around $1,200-1,300, but they can be found used on e-bay for sometimes around $500.  Great little mixers and there's not much to go wrong with them.  Can't see anything about them that would "wear out" over time.  If I hadn't gotten such a good deal on the Thermco, I'd probably be using a Smith for mixing Argon/CO2.I use a Smith for mixing Argon/Helium for tig welding heavy aluminum, and another Smith for mixing 98%Argon/2%Oxygen (spray mix).  Both work very well.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIIrish,Lot of hard work and time/effort went into that project.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIIrish,The Thermco mixer shown in the left photo mixes Argon/CO2 in any proportion from 0-100% CO2.  That is the mixer I use most frequently.  I feed it from a 330 Argon and a 50# CO2 bottle.  I does not have a built in flowmeter.  Delivers mixed gas at 50PSI (internally adjustable) to a Smith flowmeter which I mounted on a magnetic base.  That flowmeter has a short (6' ) hose with a quick disconnect.  Set the flowmeter on the mig of choice, plug in the gas, set flow, weld.  Works really well (the mixer) when going from short circuit to spray.  Especially with some of the gas mixes called for in pulsed spray.
Reply:Irish,I hope you didn't take my comments wrong.  I think what you've done is awesome and shows that you've really "done your homework" when it comes to mixing gases.I think the reason people get by with using the Y setup for mixing Argon/Helium is because you have a wide range of percentages to deal with.  For instance, adding say 25% Helium will increase the heat at the bead (as will 23% or 29% etc).  You don't have to be "right on" to see the benefit.  Same applies as you increase the Helium percentage.On the other hand, mixing Argon/CO2 for spray transfer or pulsed spray, a few percentage points can make a big difference in the way it affects the puddle.  For instance, I can see a difference in say (for pulsed mig) a 5% CO2 mix and an 8% CO2 mix.  On the Optima pulser there are actually different programs for a 2% mix and a 5% mix.  I think it is here that the accuracy of the equipment becomes more critical.Keep us updated on your progress.  Gas blending can yield tremendous benefits.  If there's a better or cheaper way to do it, there are a lot of people who could benefit.Ironically, I first got into mixing my own gasses to reduce the number of different bottles of gas it was necessary to keep on hand.  The more "into it" I got, the more I realized how different gas mixes affect the final bead.  I've found "favorites" that I probably would have never tried had I had to buy a whole bottle of gas to "try it out".I do feel that I have somewhat reduced my gas costs (larger bottles = lower per cubic foot cost) by using the mixers.  Don't know that it's necessarily reduced the total number of bottles that I keep on hand.  From your photos, looks like you run into the same issue.For example, here's what I normally keep on hand:2-3 large Argon (330's)  Mixer, tig, backup2 50# CO2  Mixer, backup1 Tri-Mix (330) Stainless mig1 Large (330) Oxygen (Ox/Ace)1 Large Acetylene (a 300 L cylinder)(Ox/Ace)2 Small Argon (125's) Backup, portable work1 Smal Helium (125) Tig3 Small (125, 55, 40) C25 portable mig.1 Small (40) Acetylene (small torch)1 Small (125) Oxygen (small torch)I "own" a couple of the larger bottles and all of the smaller ones.  My gas supplier gives me a really "good deal" on yearly leases on the remaining large bottles.Running out of gas/mix in the middle of a project has not been an issue for some time now.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIIrish,I hope you didn't take my comments wrong.  I think what you've done is awesome and shows that you've really "done your homework" when it comes to mixing gases.
Reply:Irish,Actually, there is a substantial difference in the two high end flowmeters that Smith offers.The Argon/CO2 flowmeter regulator (don't have the part numbers handy) is set to provide gas at 80PSI.  The Smith Argon/CO2/Helium (multifuel flowmeter) delivers gas at 50PSI.  This is the flowmeter (flowmeter alone) that I use with the Thermco.  If you look closely, you'll see that I added an external gauge to monitor the delivery pressure.I have not used the long post mix hose to the Smith mixers.  They're so small/light I set them on the machine and use a short delivery hose.  The gas is fed to the Smith mixers via standard double hose welding hoses at about 100 PSI pressure.You're going to really like that Optima.  Use mine on the XMT 304 with the S714D (basically the same feeder as the S74D) feeder, the 30A, and a recently added 12RC.  Cat's meow for out of position welds.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIIrish,Actually, there is a substantial difference in the two high end flowmeters that Smith offers.The Argon/CO2 flowmeter regulator (don't have the part numbers handy) is set to provide gas at 80PSI.  The Smith Argon/CO2/Helium (multifuel flowmeter) delivers gas at 50PSI.  This is the flowmeter (flowmeter alone) that I use with the Thermco.  If you look closely, you'll see that I added an external gauge to monitor the delivery pressure.
Reply:Impressive set-up Irish..... SundownIII, I've seen several of your threads on your mixers and have been pondering for a while to get one. Well this thread inspired me to take another look on eBay and what did I find? I scored on a Thermco Gas Mixer 0-750 SCPH Argon/CO2 for $400 and there's 2 Smith mixers with no pics also currently up for grabs for $200 each. Couldn't decide which set-up to go with, but at that price I had to grab it. I've been wanting to try spray transfer for quite some time now. Attached ImagesSynchowave 180SD  Bernard 3500SS water coolerMillermatic 200Parker Plasma Tec 40dvOperating Engineers Local 12
Reply:Thanks. I was doing some of the labeling for calibrating the tubes Sun night after our discussion on this and noticed that I'm going to have to add another meter to the unit. The CO2 tube that's in there will not read low enough to do a 2% mix at a total of 20cfh. I'm going to have to add another small tube just for the mix. I want to leave the big tube for the rare case that I want 100% CO2 (I've got a roll of dual shield that calls for that).   Nice score on the Thermoco Bruce. Way to go. At the rate I'm going I'll easily have that much into my setup. I'm hoping that mine will be more versatile in the long run but that remains to be seen.  (fingers crossed).Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Houston there be mixing going on  Well the funny farm finally let me out again. (It's been a really long week).  After several false starts and a couple of changes I finally got it going. I'm sure there will have to be a little fine tuning here and there and I've still got to get the TIG reel set up but here it is.   As you can see in the last pic I had to try it out a little. Definitely got to do some more playing to figure out all the settings on the Optima. Attached ImagesMillermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Didn't see this thread till now.I picked up a used Smith Argon/CO2 mixer.  Regulators should be coming in today.I want to mix, not pure CO2, but C25 with the Argon.  Smith suggest that the density or C25 is pretty close to the density of CO2 (and argon for that matter).  Smith of course doesn't have any calibration for that.   According to Smith the internals on all the mixers are the same (at least same part number).  Its all calibration - which may include a different dial on the face of the mixer.  I'm not worried about calibrating the flow right now.How can I test the mix calibration?  The gas suppliers around here (Maryland/Washington DC) only seem to be able to mix and/or test high pressure bottles.I was thinking about making my own thermal test setup.   Fill a 1 liter coke bottle with the mix gas, heat it under a heat lamp, and see how much the temperature changes after 10 minutes.  Compare pure argon, pure CO2 (I could use the rest on kegorator), vs. C25 vs C10 vs. any mix I dial in.Thoughts?
Reply:BruceTS,Missed your post before.You got a GREAT deal on the Thermco unit.  I'm sure you'll be happy with it.Con-Fuse,My brother-in-law works for the local natural gas delivery company.  They've got sensors/analyzers (spectrum analyzer)  wihich, I suspect, will detect about any gas known to man.  This is not "hobby stuff" and I'm sure they cost more than I've probably got tied up in welding equipment.Thankfully, I didn't have to buy it, just got to use it.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:I asked my friend who runs the local gas company and he doesn't have a meter for CO2 only for CO. However he is pretty sure that the local gas analysis company can test for it. I just have to get a sample bottle from them to fill up. They normally test the contents of the natural gas produced in the area (this is natural gas country) for the various producers we have. I don't think it costs a lot to have done.   I've not updated this thread lately primarily because I'm still trying the system out. However here is what I have managed so far.   One little problem I'm having is with my check valves. At normal flow rated they like to bounce. While I don't think this affects it much it is slightly irritating from a noise stand point. But it does tell me when there's flow going on.   I have managed to play with the mix some and do a little testing. One evening I hooked it up to my MM252 which I normally keep hooked to a bottle of C25 and it currently has .030" wire in it. I started with a mix I was pretty sure was close to C25 and I couldn't tell much difference in the welds except for the surge coming out at the beginning. The MM252 is worse about the surge than the suitcase. I'm pretty sure that's mostly because it doesn't have the extra filter screen fitting that the suitcases have on them. If I added a orifice or flow control of some form it would be fine.   Anyway on with the test. I started thinning out the CO2 incrementally while keeping the same welder settings to see the effects on the weld. I didn't notice a lot of change till I got near what I calculate as 10% CO2. At that point the weld actually acted a little hotter to me though part of that may of been the work piece heating up. Once I started going lower than that I started to see signs of it trying to go into spray mode. The arc became pretty unusable when I got down around 2% CO2 calculated.   At that point I backed up to around 8-10% CO2 and started playing with the settings on the welder. I was able to get into full spray mode with the .030" wire but I don't remember the welder settings. I played with it some for a while and then went back to the C25 mix. I played with the welder settings some more trying to get a feel for it. Now I've had that welder for over 1 1/2 years now and never got around to playing with the settings before. I'd been pretty happy with the way it welded at the factory settings except for the 1/4" setting with .035 wire which is really in globular territory voltage wise so I put it down to that. Anyway I found that with the .030" wire there was a pretty wide range up on the wire speed available before it started stubbing.   Anyway I can't say that I learned anything definitive from the test but I did learn a few new things about the welder and got a better feel for it and learned that I need to do some more playing.  Now with the XMT304 and Optima I've done some playing and work with it as well. I'm still working on getting a full handle on the pulser but I have managed to make some decent beads with it. I do have to work on the out of position settings though. I'm not always happy with them. I hope having the digital readout on my new wire feeder will help me get that under control.  I have used it both in full spray mode without pulser and in short circuit mode with success. On the spray mode it did take a little bit to fine tune but I'm used to that from the old Dimension 400. Friday I did some short circuit work with it after resetting the gas to about C25 and I can say that I'm real happy with the way that worked out. I was running roughly 375ipm (the old wire feeder is kind of vague) and 22 or so volts with the .035" wire I have in that welder. The welds came out great with no problems at all. Again I'm hoping to be able to come up with a chart using the new wire feeder.  I've not managed to get any welding grade helium yet so I've not tested that part of the mixer. I'm about the only one my LWS has that does much TIG thus they've not really got a lot of the stuff for it. They're supposed to be checking for me. I've quit handling the balloon grade helium myself so I couldn't test it to see if it had any 02 in it (my main user still owes me for the last bottle so I don't care if I keep it anymore).   So that's where I stand on it at the moment. So far it seems to work well overall.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm