Could use some help on handrail mounting

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Hey all,Handrails are not my thing but I have a job to do a simple set. Building them is no problem for me but the mounting is undetermined.The steps are black rock that looks like slate. Drilling should not be a problem after seeing it done at another location.These will be rails on both sides and a removable set  in the middle.How would you guys suggest mounting the side rails and what method for the center set. The center set will be removed for entry by wedding parties (Fancy dresses) and cannot create a trip or snag hazard.Any suggestions? All materials will be round pipe for handrails and uprights.Here is the information I got from the customer in an image.Also does anyone have suggestion on pricing? I probably work slower than you guys that do this all the time. I must include installation in the quote. The place is about 20 miles from my place.Thanks to any assistance you may be able to give.Bob Attached Images
Reply:$75-ft.
Reply:First, determine if the submitted diagram needs to pass codes.  Usually must rails turn down or terminate.  Also, must run a foot parallel at top and one tread length beyond the bottom nosing and then 1 foot parallel to the ground.  This would add several feed to your rail.I would charge more it each baluster has to be drilled into the stone.  It has been suggested bidding pipe rail by the joint.  Determine how long it will take you do do a joint, including cleaning, then price accordingly.Also, helps to know how welds must be.  Do they expect ground welds or will untouched welds do.  I usually prefer bolt and plates.  Add shoes is necessary.  If I could get away with it, I would do the same in the middle.  Just doesn't seem like a good Idea to leave a open cored hole in the middle of a set of steps, as will occur when the rail is removed.  Seems as though there will be about 42 inches widgh on each half.  How wide is the door???  Are things going to be moved that require removal of the rail every time or occasionally.   Our Lowes now sells 3/8" and 1/2" galvanized tapcons.  Good luck
Reply:Tapwelder,I just sent a message to the customer asking about the codes and if they have been investigated. I will have to let you know what I hear back. Good suggestion, I don't normally make rails and did not even think about the codes.Would you suggest plates and tapcons to mount?
Reply:Bob Warner - This rail project is rife with problems, the formost is design, there isn't one, it calls for 11 points of attachment, when 6 is going to be a workout, especially in dubious sub-strata on an uneven surface [stone].  When you are requested to:  Please confirm all dimensions . . . , or Field varify, it means that all the responsibility for correctness is upon you; hense, you are the defacto designer and responsible for its failure..  If this is a Building Permited project there are unanswered UBC questions in the elemental drawing that should be shouldered before it get to the fabricator.  Once an all encompassing metal design is supplied, the real project is anchoring.  To remove the middle rail, a female anchor system is the only option.  This is where the job really gets big, because this is a free-standing rail that will be subject to high leverage.   I've visited your home page and you are very good at considering all the variables - turn this project down.    OPUS
Reply:I would do it with tapcons if possible.    I would find out if the middle rail is really necessary, if not eliminate it. I wouldn't turn the job down, just get all necessary information.Make sure they are aware you will not be responsible for broken stone.  The first job I did on Slate tile was actually Slate tile over a brick porch.  I cored it.  The vibration was so bad I broke/crack/chipped  tiles around a couple of feet.  It was not a problem on the steps where it was over concrete.  The last slate tile job I did I had no problems, It was all over concrete, however.
Reply:I think that most things have been covered, but with regards to the (IMO pointless unless it covers more of the stairs) centre rail, the only way that I can think of is to use the Kee Klamp type 66 fittings. (You need to look under "ground fixing choices") Hope this helps!Last edited by Baila La Pinza; 06-14-2010 at 05:47 AM.
Reply:I tackled a hand rail job a few months back.  I would not be inclined to want to core into slate for that basically pointless middle rail.The outside rails I would do a plate with tapcoms.If I were going to tackle the middle rail, I would want to mount into the top slab and ground level. Not in the steps.And after looking at that, the space between the two side rails when done will just barely be over 6.5 feet making that middle rail a truly pointless idea.Last edited by rustywrangler; 06-14-2010 at 09:46 AM.Come try it out and stay a while.
Reply:I think the purpose for the center rail is that when the doors are open they block access to the handrails until you get past the door and he wants to give people something to hang onto from the top. The landing is small outside the door and the door extends past the first step when open.
Reply:I'm a plumber and have worked on dozens of high end custom jobs in San Francisco and watched stuff like this go down. I'm with Opus. Major design, code, liability issues (the door preventing hand rail access at the top because there is no upper landing). The stairs all by themselves are pushing hard at the legal limits because of variations in riser and tread size. Make sure _you_ are not the one responsible, that you are working under somebody else with the legal responsibility for signing off on the design and details - like center rail attachment.  If you are working under the owner, you are presumed to be the expert and are likely liable. This sounds like some kind of church thing where there can be a lot of traffic, a lot of older people on shakey legs.... Let somebody else sort it out. If you do it, only work off of plans (with mounting details) signed off by the administrative authority; the city/count stamp - INITIALED - will appear on every page of the plans and make damn sure it appears on _your_ page. At least that's the way it's done around here. That's the only way I know to avoid being hung out to dry. This has very little to do with good solid workmanship but a lot to do with the rules about where they come looking if/when there are any "incidents" of any kind.FWIW.  Rufus
Reply:The railing in the middle isn't pointless if required by local code due to the width of the stairs. Also, if the client want's it, then that's what they want. I think, in my experience, you won't want a surface plate to mount the railing in the middle to, as this will be a much greater tripping hazard than a hole in the tread. A 1.5-2" hole isn't going to cause problems.Slate can really suck to drill. It's really unpredictable. So,like tapweld suggested, have it in writing that broken tile is possible and not your responsibility. Explain to them why and let them decide. Drill the center holes deep. Maybe a foot. Longer insertion will keep it in place better. Less chance of accidental pull out. ( why does this sound like instructions on a condom box???)If you use mounting plates on the side rails, Maybe cut away the tile in the size and shape of your plates to get you to the concrete( assumption ?) base. If you build to for mounting on the slate, and it breaks/chips away, you could be in a bind if it throws off your mounting surface. Either you'll have to wait for the stone guy to repair it or wedge under the plate somehow to support it. Like I said, slate/stone tile can be a can of worms.Don't forget to check local codes re: picket spacing, rail height, hand rail end termination, stick out and finish requirements, dia. of rail grip surface, minimum width between rails. Don't rely on a designer/architect to know these things( which blows my mind considering what they get paid )Good luck with it.Last edited by bert the welder; 06-14-2010 at 12:16 PM.200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:Thanks guys.  OK, due to my questions the plan has been tossed out.I went to the site and met with the city inspector. The plan has completely changed but I am uncomfortable with what he wants. I felt better about the original plan.The new plan is that the side rails will now be mounted in the ground next to the steps. I was told to concrete them in and ride right up the side of the steps and up to 34" above the step. One at each end and NO pickets in between. The rail goes on top an the last foot is to be bent out as in the original drawing for one foot then turned downwards to avoid impaling people.The center rail must be there according to the inspector because the side rails are too far apart. He wants the center rail to basically have two bends in it (kinda C shaped) and the mounting points will be 3" angle mounted on top of the first step and bolted to the step and to the riser behind it, same mounting on the bottom step, no pickets here either. A female pipe fitting welded to the angle and the railing piece slides into it and held in place with a pip pin or something similar.The inspector said the railing bars must be 1.25" - 1.50" in diameter, nothing larger or smaller.I went to the steel yard on my way home to get some prices and told the guy what I was doing and he said he thought the inspector was wrong on the diameter of the pipe for the rail. He said that everyone uses larger pipe for railing and things the inspector made a mistake. I am trying to find out how to locate the code requirements on the web, there was a guy on site that said he looks everything up on the web but could not remember the web address. If anyone can point me to how to find this information I would appreciate it.I plan on coming up with something that states that I just followed directions and am not responsible for anything that could go wrong, if anyone has wording for something like this I would appreciate that as well.The steps themselves are not slate as described by the customer. They are brick, black brick, and nobody seems to know what they are made of. The contractor did say they break very easily. I will have to create a waiver for breaking the bricks also.Unfortunately I am not in a position to turn down ANY work. I really don't want to turn it down anyway, it is not a difficult build but the inspector has me worried. No pickets means some kid could fall off the steps sideways and nothing stops them, they get hurt and start looking at me for cash.Pricing is a pain. Is $75/ft as suggested reasonable to rest of you?I really appreciate the input so far and hope you guys don't mind sharing anything else you can help me with.Bob
Reply:I think it's 1.75" for the handrail and I seem to remember a requirement for a midrail and uprights every 5' or 6'.  I could be wrong though.  1.25" and 1.5" are too small for old people to get a grip on or something.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Walk away from it.  It is not worth the risk.  The center rail brackrt would be a trip hazzard. And i dout if it would meet code.
Reply:Bob, YOU--need to become thoroughly familiar with the code requirements.....that just comes with the job.Apparently some architect or detailer dreamed this up. If you insist on pursuing it (the brick base is a big issue and can stop you out on the job--as others have mentioned); then the architect needs create drawings (revised as needed and to your satisfaction), submitted and signed off, in advance by the local building department.      At the point of drawing submission, have your own personal consultation with the relevant inspector, to get his blessing, input, etc. Construction on paper is much easier tomodify than construction in steel.....that just comes with the job.            That first step with a 10" rise is plain dangerous. That's a big trip and fall issue,that should be corrected prior to the railing install. The 13" landing on the top is bogus, as well-needing a sign off from the inspector,in advance.This is a job from hell.http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1276558257 Attached ImagesBlackbird
Reply:http://www.stairways.org/pdf/2006%20...C%20SCREEN.pdfthe above link is the most useful explanation of the codes ive come across, it can vary slightly from state to state though.theres no need to pass on this job.  stairs and railings can be tricky at first, but once you get the hang of them there much less daunting.if you're going to use pipe for the handrails, use 1-1/4" pipe. you can get fittings and handrail parts for them from king metals (www.kingmetals.com) buying the elbows and bends and welding them in ive found to be much simpler than tryign to bend them myself, or even trickier trying to line up mitered cuts on either side of pipe/tubing.   the od is actually 1-5/8", and im pretty sure your inspector is wrong about the diam, buts its up to you whether you want to argue with him about it...personally i dont like tapcons. for anchoring into brick ive found sleeve anchors hold pretty well, but id prefer using glue in hilti anchors.  they can be a pain, have to make sure the hole is cleaned out well before you set them.  for the center rail you may want to look into an anchor with female threads, that way you can bolt and unbolt the rail if you want to move it, but dont have any studs sticking up.
Reply:BobThe inspector is making the same mistake I see them do all the time.  The 1.25"- 1.5" is not the OD but the PIPE size.  1.5" pipe has an OD of 1.9".  My choice is the 1.5" pipe but some places like the 1.25 pipe for the slimmer look.  They make a socket that is set into the concrete for removable rails.  Check with R B Wagner for something like this.  I have made a PLUG (a short post with a cap) to set back into the socket when the rail is removed. This will keep everything flush. If the steps are brick over concrete, you need to be at least 3" in from the concrete edge if you core drill.  If you have brick sides this adds to the inset.  You may need to go to the ground and anchor to the side of the stairs.   If the steps are new and based on the drawings, the first step may be 10" but concrete sidewalk set in front will reduce its height.You do not want to attach the post base to the brick.  This is just something looking to fail.The bottom may not be allowed to extend out and turn level at the bottom and/or top if it interferes  with a walkway.If this is in the US and at a church, they can get away from ADA requirements.  I don't know why, but they are. Don't bet the farm on having the drawings pass the permit office and have their stamp.  It's not their fault if they are wrong, it will be you.If you don't do rails a lot, you should be very careful on a rail job like this or pass on it until you have more experience under your belt.   The lack of proper information from the architect  and your lack of experience will really compound your problems.
Reply:I build lots of handrails Bob and I'll say, this one is a booger! You didn't say it was a church but I bet it is. They always do things half a$$, with no planning and members always want to help to cut costs. They can be tough to get money out of when the job is done as well. I must say I would turn this one down if at all possible. If you can't afford to turn it down then I know you can't afford the problems you're about to get into. Just my thoughts. Bob Pool
Reply:Man, you guys sure have a lot of 'Regulations' when it comes to Codes, clearances and stuff like that...   I think most people are MORE worried about LIABILITY than they are about creative solutions to 'difficult jobs'.  You KNOW there is something wrong with the 'world you live in' when LIABILITY is the MAIN focus of jobs such as this...What the Hell did people do before these 'Codes and Regulations' were ever introduced?  Were there MASS casualties due to people falling down stairs and over railings in the last 1000 years or so?      Sheesh....Miller Diversion 165120 amp Buzz BoxVictor Oxy/Ace Oxy/LPGSmith "Little" Oxy/LPGHypertherm Powermax 30Lot's of Misc. tools n' crap....
Reply:This is not a church.It is a store in an old downtown area of Plano, TX. The people bought it and are renovating it. The steps are black brick laid over the original concrete steps. The first step is tall but there is not enough room on the sidewalk to add another step without violating ADA requirements.Getting paid is not a problem either as they have paid me promptly for everything I have done for them so far.It may be the "Job from hell" but not having work is hell as well so I have to do this job. If I turn it down someone else will do it and they will get the cash, not me. I cannot afford to let anything pass by. I will come up with something that says I built to their specs and they are responsible.
Reply:Bob, I think you should go for it. Maybe pad your price a bit more for the frustration, say $90/ft. The fact of it is this. Our collective opinions/experience is completely irrelevant. The city inspector is god. You get what he wants, in writing. The client gives what they want to the designer. They do the plans. The client gives these to the inspector for approval. Maybe some back and forth to satisfy everyone, but once the inspector is happy he'll rubber stamp them. Once they are rubber stamped, your job is only to build and install to the plans you are given. Period! At this point you are trying to shoulder more responsibility than your pay grade.  You've not being asked to design these, just build them. Just do it , my friend! Remember your not liable for anothers design. If you build it to what the city wants, you've met code. You have no further "responsibility" . Been there, done that. If you start "designing" things, then it's on you. So just park yer pencil on this one and enjoy making some money. Make sure the drawings spec EVERYTHING! Don't make any decisions. Bolt size for mounting, size of holes they want drilled for them to go in, bolt grade,every detail. Make a list. Sit down and close yer eyes. Picture every step. Walking up the the sight to sweeping away the dust when your done. Write down everything that your going to have to do that requires a decision, and let the required party make it. If you make a decision, then your liable for that decision.  Go for it and good luck!!!Last edited by bert the welder; 06-15-2010 at 01:18 PM.200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:Bob,Never mind the railing, right now the steps fail the general building code requirements for dimensions and dimensional consistency.  Tread depth consistency is supposed to be 1/8" from tread to tread and 3/8" MAX from largest tread to smallest.  Right now, that means the treads FAIL.Tread depth is supposed to be 10" minimum.  It seems to meet that one at least.The rise on the steps is supposed to be 1/8" max difference from step to step and 3/8" overall MAX  from largest to smallest.  Right now, that means FAIL.Also, rise is supposed to be 7-3/4" MAX.  That first step at 10" rise means FAIL.Required general landing at top and bottom and mid-level landings is 36" in the direction of travel.  A few exemptions exist for that requirement, this situation doesn't seem to fit in any of those categories.  A door swinging out generally can NOT swing over the steps themselves.  That means the steps FAIL again.Before you could even consider doing railings, the stairs themselves have to be correct.  I wouldn't touch any part of the railing construction until the stairs are fixed.  Which given the description and drawings so far, means they have to be demolished and redone. Because those steps are WRONG on so many levels right now.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:The building inspector does not seem to have an issue with the steps. Not sure why, maybe they allow this because it is an old building or something.I am going to be gone for Wednesday and Thursday and Friday I will try to meet with the customer again. The customer IS the designer.Almost everything has been talked about, I never did and probably never will get a plan to build from. We just talk and agree and I go to work. That is why I need something that says I did what they wanted, to their design and they are responsible. I have been searching for the wording on that but no lock so far.Thanks for the continued help.
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerThe building inspector does not seem to have an issue with the steps. Not sure why, maybe they allow this because it is an old building or something.
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerAlmost everything has been talked about, I never did and probably never will get a plan to build from. We just talk and agree and I go to work. That is why I need something that says I did what they wanted, to their design and they are responsible. I have been searching for the wording on that but no lock so far.I stumbled across some standards for stairs and railings and I posted the information in another thread http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...780#post400780You should look at the pipe railing manual:http://www.naamm.org/amp/amp_technical_literature.aspxI know what I'm going to be reading tonight
Reply:What if I don't install it? What if I make it and give it to the owner and have nothing else to do with it?I can just tell them I want them to install it so the responsibility does not fall on me. They know I am a one man shop and don't need any problems with anyone.
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerWhat if I don't install it? What if I make it and give it to the owner and have nothing else to do with it?I can just tell them I want them to install it so the responsibility does not fall on me. They know I am a one man shop and don't need any problems with anyone.