several questions in one...storm shelter

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Hi everyone, very new to welding, less than two hours hood time with my ac stick welder. A project I would like to start buying material for is an 8x12x8 inground shelter. We live in a house of "straw" and severe thunderstorms could be damaging, let alone what a tornado could do.**disclaimer** not starting before proper instruction and development of skill! Just want to buy material during my busy season.My thoughts on the shelter design was 10 gauge sheet around a frame of 2" 14 gauge tube 4'oc. Going in med course sandy soil with maybe 4"-6" soil on top, not planning on burying deep. Any thoughts to soundness of design, anything you would do different? What would be the best process for welding, stick, mig, flux core? Have choice of mig or stick class coming up in July. I have the stick welder, but wouldn't mind selling a rifle to help buy a smaller mig. Thoughts on Hobart 210 mvp, or 190?I know this question may seem premature, but  like stated above I want to start buying material while I'm in my busy season before the money dries up.Thanks in advance,Tom
Reply:G'day Tom,I have never built an underground shelter before but my 1st thought would be how deep is the water table?If it is not very deep then I guess I would be building at ground level then piling the dirt over it afterwards. I have seen houses built this way in fire-prone areas.The grass on top would be a be-atch to mow though Mike
Reply:Originally Posted by ManjimikeG'day Tom,I have never built an underground shelter before but my 1st thought would be how deep is the water table?If it is not very deep then I guess I would be building at ground level then piling the dirt over it afterwards. I have seen houses built this way in fire-prone areas.The grass on top would be a be-atch to mow though Mike
Reply:I can understand the need for the shelter with the amount of twisters you guys have been getting in recent weeks.Stay safe Mike
Reply:My issue with direct burial of thin gauge steel is longevity. You can guarantee rust., and with that, down the road water leaks and possibly collapse. Even with coatings, drain tile, and clean fill, that wouldn't be my choice as the way to go unless I was simply using it as form work for concrete. Personally my 1st choice would be poured concrete, but then that's what I did for years. A shelter isn't anything more than a basement with a heavy duty roof. If I wanted an "instant" shelter, I'd look at some of the large concrete holding tanks the precast guys make. Dig hole, line bottom with clean stone to level and for drainage, order tank and they will drive out and set it for you. Many of those companies also do the precast egress stairs and will even cut and set the steps for you. All you have to do is back fill and whatever finishing touches you want to add. You wouldn't really even need steps, as the tanks usually have 30" round access holes already installed on the tops and many come with ladders cast into the walls ( personally I'd opt for stairs myself)..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Buried plain steel WILL rust.Concrete.  No rust, gives you mass/weight in the ground (reduced uplift so you lessen the chances of going airborne), and it's solid.  The precast idea is an interesting one.Steel is a great material, and welding is (sometimes) a good way to join steel pieces together.  But they aren't always the right material or process for the task.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:I'd go concrete as well. feel free to make your storm doors from steel if thats what you want, but make the shelter from concrete.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:+1 on concreteThe steel one can slowly "float" out of the ground due to buoyancy.  May not be a problem if you're in well draining soils.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:The local burial vault company has ventured into pre-cast storm shelters as well as septic tanks.  They offer a couple of different models complete with entrance and egress wells with hard point attachments for the doors.  The price is favorable to poured basement style of construction and meets all applicable regs.Just some food for thought.RogerOld, Tired, and GRUMPYSalesman will call, Batteries not included, Assembly is required, and FREE ADVICE IS WORTH EXACTLY WHAT YOU PAY FOR IT!Dial Arc 250HFThunderbolt 225 AC/DCAssorted A/O torches
Reply:Thanks for the input everyone. Not exactly what I was hoping to hear, but such is life. Let's say I decide to go against everyone's advice, and maybe my better judgement. Rust issue aside, anyone see structural issues with my idea? Heavier sheet, heavier tubing, more tubing, channel?
Reply:Originally Posted by TomH Rust issue aside, anyone see structural issues with my idea? Heavier sheet, heavier tubing, more tubing, channel?
Reply:I'd hate to see the cost of those, or the equipment to pick it up.
Reply:I had a concrete one installed last summer.  $5200 for the largest one they had.  Smaller ones are cheaper.  Poured in place, painted, carpeted, with benches.You may have close to that $ in steel thick enough to handle the loads.  Plus backhoe rental if you don't have one already.  Plus cost of labor, or time you spend working this when you could be working a paying job.  And 5 years later you have a flaky rusted can.If I were determined to do it myself, I'd build the steel forms, and pour my own concrete.  The forms used by the guys who did mine were just 1/8" sheet with 2"x2"x1/4" angle framing each panel.  Each panel was bolted together from the inside.  Each panel was small enough to be carried out the finished door opening.  The wall panels were rectangular in shape but curved (you could probably get away with flat panels and another inch or two thickness in concrete).  They also had two trusses made of 2"x2"x1/4" angle inside to brace the walls and hold up the roof.  The roof panels has a circular center panel (held up by the trusses) with pie piece shaped panels that lay on top of the wall and on top of the circular center roof panel.  The steps were formed as a protrusion from the circular can two wall panels and two panels for each tread, again all bolted from the inside.  Heavy use of the vibrator was needed to get the concrete to fill under the steps.  They grouted the steps afterwards to fill little air bubbles and give a good finish.  They also had a roughly 10" tall ring (with rectangular addition for the steps) that went around the outside.  Only the inside can, and the outside ring were formed.  Everything else was formed by the dirt in the hole.  The top dome was hand finished.  On the floor, the forms only extended a foot inside of the wall.  The form was raised off the bottom of the hole with several metal pedastals that were bolted to the form.  These were left in the pour.  The bolt was removed from the top side.  The nut showing in the pour was grouted over.  Concrete was poured on to the top of the form first to weight it down and keep it from shifting.  Then concrete was poured between the form and the dirt wall of the hole.  Concrete was filled as evenly as possible on all side to avoid pushing the forms.  Vibrators were used to make the concrete flow under the form to make the floor (max of 5 foot away from any wall so not much shoveling of concrete).  The floor was hand finished by some poor guy down inside sweating his a$$ off surrounded by cooking concrete.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:check and see if you can find some designs for steel goose pits..tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:FEMA has an online guide to building a shelter, including impact test results of various designs, etc.  I think they all consist of some form of concrete.  In any event, not something I would consider doing on my own.  I wouldn't even hire someone to do it who I didnt' think had a real grasp of the engineering and a plan sealed by a P.E.  All you need is a cave in on one of your kids and there's nothing you can do to bring them back.Remember, though, a good old fashioned root cellar is what saves / saved many people, including Dorothy's family.
Reply:If you are set on steel, use galvanized materials if burying it in the ground. I'd design it so the roof is buried as well so there is no edges for the wind to grab. If not, be sure you have piers or footings buried well down. Maybe galvanized fence posts and 11ga G90 galv sheets welded with SIB? (unless you have a hot dip galvanizing shop nearby where you can dip your finished components)Thermal Arc Fabricator 2101970 Lincoln RedfaceMiller 150 STLStill need a Syncrowave and a plasma and a milling machine and a lathe and a bigger shop and a....
Reply:Andy, what size did you get? I would love to see one installed. When we first started with the idea of a shelter it was going to be filled cinder block walls with an undetermined roof. Problem is if were ever gonna make this happen we are going to need to do this in pieces. Before now I had not considered a solid wall pour construction which may be cheaper than filled block, but will have to be done in one shot, if I understand the concept correctly. With block construction phase 1would be dig hole and pour footers and floor. Step 2 buy a pallet of block and cement mixer run those out and repeat until desired size is finished. Seeing all the steel shelters all over the internet our (Mrs and I) thinking was we could buy the steel piece by piece and build in the driveway till finished. Once ready to go in the ground have my friend bring over his backhoe for the day and drop in place. No giant hole in front yard for months before completion. Not too mention if I have to develop a skill I would rather put it in welding where I would like to try that as a trade as opposed to masonry that I have no desire to do for a living. Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but its hard to be objective when I'm in the problem, I do great telling other people what they should do
Reply:Originally Posted by RodJFEMA has an online guide to building a shelter, including impact test results of various designs, etc..
Reply:Originally Posted by Canoe2fishIf you are set on steel, use galvanized materials if burying it in the ground. I'd design it so the roof is buried as well so there is no edges for the wind to grab. If not, be sure you have piers or footings buried well down. Maybe galvanized fence posts and 11ga G90 galv sheets welded with SIB? (unless you have a hot dip galvanizing shop nearby where you can dip your finished components)
Reply:Originally Posted by TomHI thought it wasn't safe to weld on galvanized material?? Something about poisonous fumes?
Reply:Originally Posted by RodJFEMA has an online guide to building a shelter, including impact test results of various designs, etc.  I think they all consist of some form of concrete.  In any event, not something I would consider doing on my own.  I wouldn't even hire someone to do it who I didnt' think had a real grasp of the engineering and a plan sealed by a P.E.  All you need is a cave in on one of your kids and there's nothing you can do to bring them back.Remember, though, a good old fashioned root cellar is what saves / saved many people, including Dorothy's family.
Reply:I hear ya.  With things like gantry cranes, laser eye surgery, parachutes, etc., I tend to want to go ahead and spend the bucks.  I think you do want something an engineer signs off on or has been proven, or a root cellar underneath a concrete foundation.  There's always foundations left when tornadoes come through.There was a rancher out near a friend of mine's place back about 15 years ago.  I did not know him personally but was told he had a reinforced building supposed to help protect the family from storms.  F4 (some think it was F5) came through and he made it to the building, got into it and sat in his Dodge Ram truck with his wife, I believe.  Well, there was nothing left of the house and place, all the bark stripped off every tree, nothing, except part of that reinforced building though not completely intact.  I drove past the place a few weeks later to see the damage. He survived the storm, but not for long.  The VFD found him pinned in his truck impaled through his torso somehow by a 2x4.  They had to cut the 2x4 off on either side and take him to the hospital where he lived for about a week.  He was in his 80's at least.  Unbelievable.Point of all that what happens is so unpredictable, you get weird stuff like one person's house standing almost unscathed, the next has been ripped out and replaced with an upside down trailer rig.Actualy, part of the point was to get it off my chest.  Everytime it comes to mind it makes the hair on my neck stand up.
Reply:Given the conditions in SC (I was here during Hugo) I'd go with concrete and look into things such as concrete septic tanks since they can be purchased and set in the ground with available equipment.They don't need to be completely buried. I'd get one, have it delivered and set on timbers or logs, seal it thoroughly, then set it about fifty percent in-ground. Add sump pump and access hatch of your choice.Want to weld something? Copy a tank or AFV hatch! Pic is of the cupola on the Israeli Merkava. You would need a hatch on top of this structure. You could use thick Lexan instead of ballistic glass if you want to observe your surroundings.If you want to enter it quickly, a "slide" just like those on a playground would be safer than a ladder or stairs. Use those for another access. Want to weld something? Make an armored "cellar door" with a hatch-style  spring and counterweight (not gas struts) for your slide entrance.Berm up to it with rock or railroad gravel or crushed asphalt (I love crushed asphalt, you can move it yourself with a shovel and rake but it packs hard and rain doesn't bother it. Nice brown color too.) and call it good.Put Hesco bastion or landscaped berms around it to deflect wind and objects. You can landscape that stuff too.The US military uses cast concrete for shelters and has emplaced thousands of them in the Middle East.Building bunkers is WELL-researched. Want shelter? Bunker thyself. Attached ImagesLast edited by farmall; 04-26-2012 at 08:15 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by RodJI hear ya.  With things like gantry cranes, laser eye surgery, parachutes, etc., I tend to want to go ahead and spend the bucks.  I think you do want something an engineer signs off on or has been proven, or a root cellar underneath a concrete foundation.  There's always foundations left when tornadoes come through.There was a rancher out near a friend of mine's place back about 15 years ago.  I did not know him personally but was told he had a reinforced building supposed to help protect the family from storms.  F4 (some think it was F5) came through and he made it to the building, got into it and sat in his Dodge Ram truck with his wife, I believe.  Well, there was nothing left of the house and place, all the bark stripped off every tree, nothing, except part of that reinforced building though not completely intact.  I drove past the place a few weeks later to see the damage. He survived the storm, but not for long.  The VFD found him pinned in his truck impaled through his torso somehow by a 2x4.  They had to cut the 2x4 off on either side and take him to the hospital where he lived for about a week.  He was in his 80's at least.  Unbelievable.Point of all that what happens is so unpredictable, you get weird stuff like one person's house standing almost unscathed, the next has been ripped out and replaced with an upside down trailer rig.Actualy, part of the point was to get it off my chest.  Everytime it comes to mind it makes the hair on my neck stand up.
Reply:Originally Posted by TomH Problem is if were ever gonna make this happen we are going to need to do this in pieces. Before now I had not considered a solid wall pour construction which may be cheaper than filled block, but will have to be done in one shot, if I understand the concept correctly.Tom, can you post a picture of your yard or the area you plan on putting this in. I am wondering if you have a sloping area, or if you are just flat. Type of soil and if you would be in danger of flooding as stated above. Also don't want to design a trap, meaning if debris or mud could pile up on the entrance./exit to where you could not get out. If you are set on steel, I would look hard at the shipping /conex containers, prices for the steel would be a lot.   Don't know your relationship with your nearest neighbor but might want to count them in to protect them as well and absorb some of the cost. Then again I don't know if I would want to be underground in close quarters with my neighbors for very long LOL."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Pictures.....more on the next post Attached ImagesDynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:Inside dimension is roughly a 10ft circle.  Ceiling is about 7ft high, 6ft near the wall.More pictures.... Attached ImagesDynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:Interesting. Looks good, but the steps look like they'd kill my knees..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Bet you don't even think about your knees when the tornado is howling Yeah, the steps are a little awkward for me.  That's how it works when you have that much rise over that little run.  I could have done without the external handrail.  It extends out into a post hole and it's just something else to mow/weedeat around.  They should have bent a "P" on it and embedded both ends in the concrete of the cellar.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:If you use a container you can anchor it, berm it, and even pot it in concrete yet have a usable structure too. You can certainly live in a 40-footer or even a 20' ISO.Pour slab, set container, form around it, and call the concrete pump truck. The container is a "spall liner" if anyone shoots at you.  I'll pass on the concrete but if I lived where tornadoes are a serious threat at levels likely to destroy my ISO containers. I'd pot one. Berms are cheaper than potting. I have other structures for debris deflection so I'd just shelter in my "inboard" ISO. Anything punching through the (loaded) outer ISO may as well take me out. I'll guesstimate you could pot a forty footer including container for about ten grand. Sure would be thermally efficient and you'd have the roof for a deck.ISOs go for between two and three grand out of Charleston. I just checked and I'm near Manning. Quote below is via email. They will deliver to your location so get that quoted too unless you have trucker buddies.1 X 40' Std. Wind & Water Tight Container            $2,550.00
Reply:Kolot, ill post some pics this weekend when I can get on the pc. Neighbor thing won't work for me. My one neighbor we wave to each other if we see one another. My other neighbor skipped country to Mexico, turned out I lived next to a pot farm and didn't know it. It's a shame, they always seemed so happy
Reply:Thanks for the pics Andy. I like that. Looks like a good comfortable size.Farmall didn't realize your just down the road from me. Actually haven't been to Manning in a few years, with gas the way it is I try to work closer to home. Last container I was in had a horrible smell, you have any trouble with that? How much you think that hangar would set me back
Reply:Originally Posted by TomHKolot, ill post some pics this weekend when I can get on the pc. Neighbor thing won't work for me. My one neighbor we wave to each other if we see one another. My other neighbor skipped country to Mexico, turned out I lived next to a pot farm and didn't know it. It's a shame, they always seemed so happy
Reply:The area I'm looking at has never had an issue with run off or flooding, even in heavy rain the grass gets wet that's all. Several years ago we had a very wet summer and the woods about 75' of so away had ponded up with about 8-12" of water. Never has been an issue since. Took some pics yesterday before leaving for work, just have to transfer to laptop to upload.
Reply:A lot of calls for concrete, but do a little research and several well known comapnie build STEEL tornado/storm shelters in the 5-6k range. Most I have seen are 10 or 11 ga steel walls with a 4"c-channel exo-skeleton. Looking at materials I think they could be built for about 2500.00 in materials. Typically they are coated with an asphalt based type material for water protection outside and a good quality paint on the inside and obviously you would want to have gravel and drain tile underneath. If the soil was overly wet I would re-think steel but otherwise it gives you the opportunity to build the whole thing at home. Mig would be  the obvious first choice for speed and learning curve. Also look into cathodic protection to keep from rusting as well, they work well for pipelines and other underground metal structures.  Remember to give yourself plenty of ventilation as well....for breathing and for letting moisture out. My thought is concrete being so dense will be problematic with temerature changes as far as mildew, mold, condensation unless you have a way to bring it up to temp with the surrounding air. Think concrete floor in the spring...it takes a month or better here for the concrete to get to the same temp as the air/surrounding soil, in the meantime it sweats like a SOB. Think how that will effect anything in the shelter especially if it is sealed up tight.  With any design it would be HIGHLY recommended to have it gone over by a local engineer who understands underground structures and knows the local soil conditions. "Anybody can talk $h!t behind a monitor, I let the quality of my work speak for itself"Lincoln Square Wave 255 and 355 Tig Lincoln 255 Power-Mig w/ spool gun Koike 5 x 10 CNC plasma Hyd-Mech DM-10 bandsaw Ineco QB-76 NC tube bender
Reply:Originally Posted by CoupebuilderMy thought is concrete being so dense will be problematic with temerature changes as far as mildew, mold, condensation unless you have a way to bring it up to temp with the surrounding air. Think concrete floor in the spring...it takes a month or better here for the concrete to get to the same temp as the air/surrounding soil, in the meantime it sweats like a SOB. Think how that will effect anything in the shelter especially if it is sealed up tight.
Reply:Drainage was the issue I was getting at but have to have lower area in order to drain, If the soil does not hold a lot of water , a steel container will stand up to the weight and pressure and probably won't break down to fast either thus not needing the concrete. But Concrete is king if you have the wallet for it."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400