Mig issue

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I mostly tig and only occasionally mig something. I'm hoping some of the more experienced mig guys can point me in the right direction here. I've got a Miller 210 with very little time on it. I was using .023 wire with 75/25 on some 20 ga. cold rolled. The joint was a butt weld. Excellent ground. I was using overlapping spot or tack welds to prevent warping. The problem was intermittent. About 7 out of 10 times I'd pull the trigger and the wire would hit, burn off, hit, burn off, hit, burn off and then start and make the weld. About 3 in 10 times it would start smoothly and weld just as it should. I was on the lowest heat setting and it was plenty hot so didn't change the heat but increased and decreased the wire speed with no noticeable change until I reached the extremes of fast and slow for that heat setting. I tried cutting the discolored end of the wire off after every weld with no change. I increased the roller tension. I made sure the gun and lead were as straight as I could keep them. None of which made any difference. It's not a huge problem but is aggravating just the same and I'd like to eliminate it if possible. I'm wondering if this could be a symptom of the no name brand wire I was using? I'm getting what I consider to be too much spatter also. I was going to change the wire anyway, just to see if it helped with the spatter. Or could it be something else? TIA!Dynasty 300DX TIG RunnerMillermatic 210Spectrum 375Smith O/A Metal working tools out the ears, Yada Yada Yada....I can still walk in my shop......That means I need more equipment, right?
Reply:I've had that happen when the tip is worn and doesn't make good contact.  At least that's what  I think it was. Changed tip problem solved.A butterfly without wings, is just an ugly bug
Reply:That very thing occurred to me (dirty or worn tip) and I did in fact change the tip about half way through the process. I should have mentioned that but forgot I had done it in the midst of trying to sort it out.Dynasty 300DX TIG RunnerMillermatic 210Spectrum 375Smith O/A Metal working tools out the ears, Yada Yada Yada....I can still walk in my shop......That means I need more equipment, right?
Reply:I will join the thread with a similiar challenge.  I have a brand new MM252 and I decided I wanted to use it for thinner material (most of the time) so I changed the rollers around to accomodate .030 wire and loaded a 11lb spool of solid wire.  I changed contact tip to .030 and started running some weld beads in varied positions.  I could not for the life of me get it to fine tune to a smooth sizzle.  The weld beads look good but there is to much "small spatter" for my liking.  I tried running some 16ga on the low end and it was much better but still not what I would expect this machine with infinite voltage adjustment to do?  For grins I ran it up to 26volt and the wire speed up to 500 or so and it was nearly spraying.  I was impressed and from the looks of the bead it looked really clean!Still concerned I called the service tech for the LWS I purchased from and he (Miller certified repair station) said that these new machines were really not as smooth as I might have experienced with the machines I ran 20 years ago??? Not satisfied I requested he come out to my shop and see for himself!He also suggested I might try running 85/25mix??  Any comments would be appreciatedThanks,TimPS: the starts are real clean and I am very impressed with the verticals I was able to run (main concern is the spatter)A rich man is not the one who has the most but instead one who needs theleast. Retired IUEC local 19AK Bush pilot,  Chaplain  CMA Chapt 26victor torchesMiller110v migDynasty 200dx (new in Dec 08)Hypertherm PM-45MM-252 (new 2/09)
Reply:85/25? That's 110%!  He must have meant 75/25.Dynasty 300DX TIG RunnerMillermatic 210Spectrum 375Smith O/A Metal working tools out the ears, Yada Yada Yada....I can still walk in my shop......That means I need more equipment, right?
Reply:Ultrachop,I've got three (3) different gas mixers (1 Thermco, 2 Smiths) and I can't get any of them to give me an 85/25 mix.  Any secret to getting more than 100% gas in that bottle.With the MM251 you can adjust your run-in wire feed speed settings.  Factory default setting is 100%.  A slightly slower run-in may help in your case.  Changing the default settings are covered in the "Controls" section of your owner's manual. (Where it discusses the different readouts on the V/WFS displays)If the wire is initially stubbing, a slower run-in may help.  If the wire is "burning off" a faster run-in would be dictated.  This feature is not normally found on the smaller migs.  Try a few different settings to find if it improves your starts.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Possibly might want to try a copper backing plate for butts.Ya, if you check the contact tip they are kinda inappropriately sized for mig wire you would think they would be more resistance, if you look the wire comes around the gooseneck in a curve and hits the same spot this is where wear can accummulate.
Reply:Thanks guys,I mis typed, I meant 85/15 on the gas mix???  Sundown,  I did read that on my 'MM-252', I haven't adjusted any of the "menu" settings,  the starts actually aren't bad,  the wire is burning clean and when I shut down I am seeing a clean wire? As I have said in the past my Mig experience was a long time ago, and most of what I was doing was welding single pass Fluxcor clips on structual steel for rail brackets, door sills and such,  We never worried about spatter.  I was sold on these new "MM's being really clean using solid wire.  It may be my technique and ability to tune the machine (but hey) that is what the reps are for right??)I will try and post some welds in the next day or so and give the voltage wirespeed settings and try to capture the spatter for critique?I plan to also change contact/nozzle and even try another roll of wire (any suggestion for wire)??Thanks guys for your suggestions,Tim-----always learning and loving it!!A rich man is not the one who has the most but instead one who needs theleast. Retired IUEC local 19AK Bush pilot,  Chaplain  CMA Chapt 26victor torchesMiller110v migDynasty 200dx (new in Dec 08)Hypertherm PM-45MM-252 (new 2/09)
Reply:1320RaceFab, your problem sounds like a symptom of too much voltage or not enough wire speed at the start, or a bad tip or wrong size tip.   You said you changed the tip, do you have the right size tip (same size as wire)?   If you have a hot-start feature on the machine, turn it off or turn it down.  Like Sundown said earlier, if you have a run-in feed speed feature, turn it off or turn it up.   Also, since you're using .023 wire, is the gun liner made for .023 or does the gun manual recommend changing to a smaller liner for .023?   My Q-Guns manuals say to use a different liner for .030 and smaller wire.Do  you have the right size drive rolls for the .023 wire?-----------------------------Ultrachop, the 85/15 mix does make for a little less spatter than 75/25, I have found.  In short circuit, setting too much voltage or too much wire can make more spatter.   In spray, too little voltage or too much wire can make more spatter.  Yes, spray is alot cleaner than short circuit, but only useful on thicker metal, unless using very thin wire or with pulse.   For me, true spray is also too fluid for out of position, without pulse.Torch travel speed can also affect spatter.  Are you keeping the wire inside the puddle toward the front of the puddle?  Over-running the puddle can make for too much spatter and skinny, ropey looking bead.Other things to look out for that can cause problems are too long stickout length, too low torch angle, nozzle and/or diffuser clogged with spatter build up, tip protruding from end of nozzle (use shorter tip or longer nozzle).Last edited by DesertRider33; 03-05-2009 at 04:48 AM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Every body pretty much covered it, yet I have one more thought... Ever fire a large caliber semi-auto pistol and have it jam?  What was the reason?  Right... Your wrist absorbed the recoil.  Sometimes,  when I have been off MIG for a while,  when I start up,  I am too relaxed, and it does the same thing you described.  Try holding it a little tighter...Also, hold it a little closer....Too much stand off can do the same thing.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Chop,The MM251/252 series seem to be a little sensitive to the wire being fed.  They will weld differently with different brands.  I've had good luck with Hobart HB 28 in both .035 and .045.  I'd recommend trying a few different smaller (8-10) lb spools, and when you find one you lke then load up a 33# spool (cheaper per #).Another suggestion I may add is (if you're still using the standard M25 gun) is that you swap out the front end parts with Bernard Center Fire replacements.  You'll need the DS-1 Diffuser, the 4323R insulator, and the centerfire tips in the required size.  I'd also recommend the NS-5800B (5/8" Flush Tip) and the NS-1200B (1/2" Flush Tip) nozzles for short arc, and the NS-5818C (5/8" 1/8" recess) for spray.I replaced the M25 that came with my MM251 with a Bernard Q-300 and am very happy with the replacement gun.1320:If you're going to be feeding that MM210 .023 wire (with C-25) on a regular basis, I'd recommend changing out the rollers and liner with a .023 liner.  The standard liner can be used for up to .035 wire.  May just be enough "slop" to cause problems with consistent feeding.May be worthwile, to consider picking up an additional M10 gun and set it up for .023 wire use.  You'll find the smaller gun and smaller lead more convenient for the light work you're doing.  Swapping a roller and gun is a lot easier/faster than changing liners.The Miller migs (MM210/212 and MM251/252) do seem to prefer some brands of wire over another one.  I'd try an 8# spool of Hobart HB 28 and see if that improves your starts.  It's worked well for me, although I don't run .023 wire in the larger Miller migs.(my HH187 is the go to machine for .023 and .030 wire).Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Sundowner,Thanks good buddy for the gun parts suggestion!  I saved that to file and will see if the LWS's have them (they should)  I did have a Bernard gun on my old Powcon years ago and it worked well!  A lot of choices in wire and I did get the extra spring for to install even 1-2lb spools of small wire.  I will do some tests and see if I can overcome the challenge (may still be my technique needing refinement)I sure hope the OP is getting his questions addressed and not being distracted by my hijack?TimA rich man is not the one who has the most but instead one who needs theleast. Retired IUEC local 19AK Bush pilot,  Chaplain  CMA Chapt 26victor torchesMiller110v migDynasty 200dx (new in Dec 08)Hypertherm PM-45MM-252 (new 2/09)
Reply:Originally Posted by UltrachopI sure hope the OP is getting his questions addressed and not being distracted by my hijack?
Reply:1320,,Thanks for sharing the post, went out in the shop today and tore into the MM, checked the roller tension, spool tension roller alignment (all looked/tested good)  I tore apart the M-25 gun and the contact, while not worn was a bit gummed up.  I cleaned the nozzle and then ran some weld at varied voltages and speeds and it was much better.  Did very well on verticals and when the voltage was slightly higher then I would have thought it to be? (any ways, I checked Ebay and there were several Q300 Bernard guns for sale, all but one had .045 liner, the guy that had the other one didn't get back to me in time, so I passed.  I checked with two LWS, and no one had the conversion parts for the centerfire gun, but I like the concept and will likely order a gun and consumables (Sundown)) thanks for the suggestion!TimA rich man is not the one who has the most but instead one who needs theleast. Retired IUEC local 19AK Bush pilot,  Chaplain  CMA Chapt 26victor torchesMiller110v migDynasty 200dx (new in Dec 08)Hypertherm PM-45MM-252 (new 2/09)
Reply:I couldn't believe the low pricing on the QGuns on Ebay.  When I ordered the QGun for the Passport in 2007, I paid about $300 for it, now I see them for only $100...!MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:That is why I love this site!!  I will definetly check the ebay stores for parts/pieces in the future!!!A rich man is not the one who has the most but instead one who needs theleast. Retired IUEC local 19AK Bush pilot,  Chaplain  CMA Chapt 26victor torchesMiller110v migDynasty 200dx (new in Dec 08)Hypertherm PM-45MM-252 (new 2/09)
Reply:RaceFab,I had the same issues on my 350P when trying to run a 20' gun with .035 wire. I came to the conclusion on mine that 20' was to far to push .035 or .030 wire. It worked ok with .045 But with the short gun on the MM210, there should not be a problem feeding .023. I would change out the liner and see it that helps. And be sure to post pics, That will help identify the problem
Reply:My suggestion is you might have too much tension, you should only have enough tension that you can lightly pinch the wire between the roll and and drive rollers and stop the wire with the drive rollers turning. By constantly increasing tension you can easily bog down the drive motor and have very sparatic wire speed. With thicker wire .035-.045 tensions not usually that big of a deal, but thinner wire and AL wire it can be a problem.
Reply:Ace I assume that the 20' lead was push-pull, seeing that ive never seen a push lead that long, 8' push leads are about the longest recomended length. but with push-pull the roll tension should be just enough to get the wire to the gun and threaded all the way thru with no tension on gun motor. the roll motors should easily slip (that motor is an assist) the gun drive motor is generally the main with a bit more tension. As with a miller xmt case feeder the gun motor will control the wire speed so if you have to much tension on the roll motor it will mess up your wire speed.And if it was a 20' push lead, hey you got me on that one. Im clueless
Reply:Originally Posted by cogaxAce I assume that the 20' lead was push-pull, seeing that ive never seen a push lead that long, 8' push leads are about the longest recomended length. but with push-pull the roll tension should be just enough to get the wire to the gun and threaded all the way thru with no tension on gun motor. the roll motors should easily slip (that motor is an assist) the gun drive motor is generally the main with a bit more tension. As with a miller xmt case feeder the gun motor will control the wire speed so if you have to much tension on the roll motor it will mess up your wire speed.And if it was a 20' push lead, hey you got me on that one. Im clueless
Reply:I had a similar problem with my mig the other day.come to find out, this time of year with the outside temp going up and down, and when I went out to the shop, it was cold, fired up my heater and I caused a lot of condensation to build on everything, the wire and rollers in the machine where wet, and it caused the rollers to slip on the wire.This might be something you would want to check for as well!Ken.#1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:Ace, what size liner was in your 350P QGun when the machine was new?   I run mostly .035 wire in mine but never thought to check what size the liner is.   I have the 15' Q300 that normally comes with the 350P.   Sometimes it doesn't want to feed consistently if I have the torch held in a weird position.  I've been putting up with it and it's not a real problem, but if I have the wrong size liner, I may as well change to the right size and maybe it will feed a little better when I have the gun twisted up.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33Ace, what size liner was in your 350P QGun when the machine was new?   I run mostly .035 wire in mine but never thought to check what size the liner is.   I have the 15' Q300 that normally comes with the 350P.   Sometimes it doesn't want to feed consistently if I have the torch held in a weird position.  I've been putting up with it and it's not a real problem, but if I have the wrong size liner, I may as well change to the right size and maybe it will feed a little better when I have the gun twisted up.
Reply:Ace, thanks for the explanation.  I follow you, that makes sense.   If there is no good liner size available for .035 in the QGun, maybe I should just run .045 wire and leave the .035 to one of my other smaller machines.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:lugweld might have said the most prominent reason for this to happen.       I have a miller 251 run mostly 035 wire with it have always used the standard m-25 gun (even though it doesnt like me lots of days for the heat i put to it)  and try and keep my tips in good shape.  Tips are cheap enough change them often.  i also us a tri mix gas called stargon forget the exact breakdown right now but it makes for very clean welds with low low spatter also using this gas basically breaks all the preset numbers they give you for co2 use.   You can spray with this gas easily.  but again i think lugweld is close to some of your problem lots of guys get very laxed when running a mig and dont previde enough pressure to insure good contact startswww.burdettenetworks.comI thought I'd post an update. I bought a 2 pound spool of .025 L-56. I had to force it onto my MM210. It tries to reject anything red. I didn't make any other changes. I kept the same rollers, liner, gun, tip, etc. Even the feed speed and voltage stayed the same. I butted a couple of scrap pieces of 18 gage, made some tacks and numerous spot welds between the tacks to stitch it up. The results were night and day difference. No starting problems and the spatter was greatly reduced. I didn't use any anti-spatter. The little bit of spatter it did produce, I just knocked it off with a file. Much better. Now, if anyone is interested, I have two 11 lb. spools of .023. One has 10.9 pounds on it and the other is unopened. And two 11 lb.spools of .030. One is full and the other has 6.8 lb on it. All 4 are Turkish made, no name, ER70S6. I'll sell them cheap. Make an offer.Dynasty 300DX TIG RunnerMillermatic 210Spectrum 375Smith O/A Metal working tools out the ears, Yada Yada Yada....I can still walk in my shop......That means I need more equipment, right?
Reply:Sorry!I use mostly Hobart "or HTP on occasion when they have it on a good sale" wire so I can't help you there!#1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:Try snipping your wire every time?... actually pull slightly as you snip to take slack out.
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanTry snipping your wire every time?... actually pull slightly as you snip to take slack out.
Reply:I've had good luck with McKay, Hobart and Lincoln wire and rods.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op