36 Dodge - narrowing/boxing frame, chopping top

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I know this isn't a car site but this is what I'm welding on at the moment so I figured I would post up a few pictures.Just got the welder up & running (thanks to some guys on this site - miller 255 autoarc) so more pictures to come soon.  Stripped the front suspension and welded on a billet coilover front end.  Cut the frame rails on the rear and moved them in 5-1/2".  Boxing the frame and welding in exhaust ports thru the frame.  Fabricated motor mounts.  Planning on chopping the top and welding all of that back up.  I'll get some pictures of the parts once it warms up a little.  Probably going to need a little advice on a few things I need to weld up.Got a deal on my welder.  255 Miller Autoarc that the spool motor was supposable bad on.  Paid $75 for it and $25 for a contactor coil (tracked that down with some help from you guys).  New liner, nozzle, tips, gas hose, etc... Probably $150 total in it.  That was my deal of the century.JohnChesapeake, VA Attached Images
Reply:few more shots getting the rear ready to narrow.  I also fabricated some gussets for the bottom of the motor mounts.  Rounded the edges and it's not shown in this picture but drilled a large center hole and two smaller holes (for looks). Attached Images
Reply:Looks like a good start.  I'll be looking forward to seeing updates.
Reply:Need to finish welding up the rear suspension & cut the exhaust ports into the 2x5 where the frame is narrowed.Chopping the top 3" and fabricating new floorboards/firewall and wheel tubs.I should have plenty of practice by the time I am done with this.Thanks for the help with everything getting my welder up and going.  A lot of the bracing was done with a 110V welder but the frame was all 220V.Hope you enjoy the pics.  John Attached Images
Reply:Are the dates on these pics out of whack or is it just me?
Reply:This type of work is the whole reason I am learning to weld.
Reply:Originally Posted by JMWAre the dates on these pics out of whack or is it just me?
Reply:Keep the pics coming now matter how many cars I build at the shop I love seeing them in the building stage I think thats more fun than driving them...Adam MMorales Ranch
Reply:I too like progress pics of projects and I am getting inspired to get back to my 36 Chevy pickup streetrod  that has been buried in the shop for years. I am a little curious about one thing. I assume you narrowed the rear frame to accommodate some much larger tires and then I look at your engine and wonder if you have plans to radically modify it or it looks somewhat like a contradiction. I know those straight sixes can be made to pour out the power as I saw one in a corvette that was a record holder. When he started it up, the ground shook. What's your plan?
Reply:Originally Posted by trapperjohn I assume you narrowed the rear frame to accommodate some much larger tires and then I look at your engine and wonder if you have plans to radically modify it or it looks somewhat like a contradiction. I know those straight sixes can be made to pour out the power as I saw one in a corvette that was a record holder. When he started it up, the ground shook. What's your plan?
Reply:Wow, nice looking stuff.... Once again I have NO idea what I'm looking at but it's COOL anyway.  Not much good with the car stuff, but I like to see pics.Cheers,/J....Miller Diversion 165120 amp Buzz BoxVictor Oxy/Ace Oxy/LPGSmith "Little" Oxy/LPGHypertherm Powermax 30Lot's of Misc. tools n' crap....
Reply:Got a lot of welding done on the frame today.  Welded the motor mounts in, filled the frame seam back about 10" from the mounts, welded the rear box plates up that the four links weld to and welded in the upper coilover mount (crossmember over the rear axle).I did as much or more grinding as I did welding.  I plan on flipping the frame and welding the vertical welds while they are flat and then welding the ones on the bottom of the frame with it flipped upside down.Got a lot of practice today.  I'm glad to have my welded up and going finally (Autoarc 255)John - Chesapeake VA Attached Images
Reply:Looks like a fun project, wish I had some one to CAD mine for me! I am planning to start on my '46International KB-6 sometime next year. I have to build me "recycled" Dodge first.....Aeromax Service Truck w/ 6,000lb Crane to carry my toys.Miller Trailblazer 302'69 Lincoln SA-200A couple of Victor Jr's to make big pieces smaller..........
Reply:Originally Posted by Pipeline MechanicLooks like a fun project, wish I had some one to CAD mine for me! I am planning to start on my '46International KB-6 sometime next year. I have to build me "recycled" Dodge first.....
Reply:I figured I would build some box plates at the back of the frame just behind the axle since it was a nice day.  I got everything cut out and fitted and primed.  I need to sandblast the inside of the frame and put picklex 20 and some weld thru primer before I can weld them on.  They came out pretty decent for using a 1/16" cut off and my bench grinder. Attached Images
Reply:I got the box plates welded in the rear of the frame and got the upper coilover mounts welded in.  (1" o.d. x 5/8" i.d. tube welded thru 2.5 x 2.5 x 3/16" crossmember)planning on using some 1/4" plate to attach the two 2.5" cross tubes together and make a receiver hitch.Should be flipping the frame and welding up everything on the bottom this week. Attached Images
Reply:Apparently you're not adding any gusseting, etc.; at the juncture of the narrowed frame to the boxed cross beam to distribute loading-relying on the yield strengthof the single plate side of that boxed cross beam to handle 'whatever' stress comes it's way?     http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1280730228 Attached ImagesBlackbird
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonApparently you're not adding any gusseting, etc.; at the juncture of the narrowed frame to the boxed cross beam to distribute loading-relying on the yield strengthof the single plate side of that boxed cross beam to handle 'whatever' stress comes it's way?     http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1280730228
Reply:Looking at this briefly, some of your welds give me some concerns.Most of the longer beads that were laid flat look to be tied in ok, though in some spots the toes look like they might be a bit cold (hard to tell in many of the picts). However I see a lot of start stops where the beads don't look tied in at all. I circled a few that stuck out. . You need to start the next weld overlapping the previous weld more. All those start/stop points are places where cracks will start once that frame starts twisting. It also looks in some places that you start and stop welds on corners. Thats another place to get cracks started. Wrap the welds around the corner or run them past. Also it looks like you've got the same poor start/stop issues at the corners and thats giong to cause more cracking issues.Also though the picts were bad, the vertical welds look poor on the plates. I blew up and lightened the bad pict to get a better look. (better picts of these would help us make some suggestions) Looks like you need some more practice on out of position welds to me before doing more work on this level of project.Looks like an interesting project. I'd hate to see you do all this effort, just to have problems down the road due to not taking the tiny bit of extra time to get the welds right. Attached Images.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWLooking at this briefly, some of your welds give me some concerns.Most of the longer beads that were laid flat look to be tied in ok, though in some spots the toes look like they might be a bit cold (hard to tell in many of the picts). However I see a lot of start stops where the beads don't look tied in at all. I circled a few that stuck out. . You need to start the next weld overlapping the previous weld more. All those start/stop points are places where cracks will start once that frame starts twisting. It also looks in some places that you start and stop welds on corners. Thats another place to get cracks started. Wrap the welds around the corner or run them past. Also it looks like you've got the same poor start/stop issues at the corners and thats giong to cause more cracking issues.Also though the picts were bad, the vertical welds look poor on the plates. I blew up and lightened the bad pict to get a better look. (better picts of these would help us make some suggestions) Looks like you need some more practice on out of position welds to me before doing more work on this level of project.Looks like an interesting project. I'd hate to see you do all this effort, just to have problems down the road due to not taking the tiny bit of extra time to get the welds right.
Reply:In addtion to the concerns that Doug (DSW) already pointed out, I am also thinking that your welding abilities should be a little more advanced before tackling a project like this that probably will end up on public roadways....My reasoning for the above conclusion is quite simple:With all of the Start/Stops and incomplete welds already discussed, you do not show having a proper, or complete, understanding of the steps involved in creating sound weldments, Nor do you show any understanding of what exactly you are doing to the frame in the HAZ (Heat Affected Zone)Welding is VERY Methodical - All sides of the weld are to be completed at the same time to minimize cycling in the HAZ, and to equalize the "Pull" in all directions... NOT do evervthing from the top, then flip the frame days/weeks later so you can "Successfully" do welds in the flat that you are Not Competent in doing Out-Of-Position.  the stresses that you are "Building" into that frame are immeasurable....Lastly - Welding is NOT "Hot Bondo"... You do NOT just go back and Gob a bit of weld onto the missed corner on the motor mount - You are missing the point - You will be creating ANOTHER Start/Stop on the corner, and ANOTHER place for a weld failure - It should have been welded PROPERLY from the start, and welds DO NOT stop on Corners (as Doug already pointed out)  Your welds on top of the frame behind the motor mounts - Same Thing - GOBS of weld on one the topside of the frame, Stressing and "Pulling" the frame as the weld cools/contracts... Multiple Heat Cyles in the HAZ that directly affects the frames ability to do it's job.. "Dressing it with a Grinder for LOOKS" does NOT make this practice acceptable.Sorry for being negative, I truly DO appreciate all the hard work you are putting in to this project, but I am seeing too many bad habits that will add up to a bad product.I will respectfully refrain from commenting on this thread in the future.Later,Jason
Reply:Originally Posted by Black WolfIn addtion to the concerns that Doug (DSW) already pointed out, I am also thinking that your welding abilities should be a little more advanced before tackling a project like this that probably will end up on public roadways....My reasoning for the above conclusion is quite simple:With all of the Start/Stops and incomplete welds already discussed, you do not show having a proper, or complete, understanding of the steps involved in creating sound weldments, Nor do you show any understanding of what exactly you are doing to the frame in the HAZ (Heat Affected Zone)Welding is VERY Methodical - All sides of the weld are to be completed at the same time to minimize cycling in the HAZ, and to equalize the "Pull" in all directions... NOT do evervthing from the top, then flip the frame days/weeks later so you can "Successfully" do welds in the flat that you are Not Competent in doing Out-Of-Position.  the stresses that you are "Building" into that frame are immeasurable....Lastly - Welding is NOT "Hot Bondo"... You do NOT just go back and Gob a bit of weld onto the missed corner on the motor mount - You are missing the point - You will be creating ANOTHER Start/Stop on the corner, and ANOTHER place for a weld failure - It should have been welded PROPERLY from the start, and welds DO NOT stop on Corners (as Doug already pointed out)  Your welds on top of the frame behind the motor mounts - Same Thing - GOBS of weld on one the topside of the frame, Stressing and "Pulling" the frame as the weld cools/contracts... Multiple Heat Cyles in the HAZ that directly affects the frames ability to do it's job.. "Dressing it with a Grinder for LOOKS" does NOT make this practice acceptable.Sorry for being negative, I truly DO appreciate all the hard work you are putting in to this project, but I am seeing too many bad habits that will add up to a bad product.I will respectfully refrain from commenting on this thread in the future.
Reply:+2 about the concerns about the design and the quality of the welding.Structural welding, which includes structures of vehicles such as cars or trucks or trailers, needs to be DoneRight.  The cosmetic stuff like the sheet metal can be a little more forgiving in that it usually isn't structural but it is also difficult in that thin sheet metal tends to warp and pull all over the place.All those starts and stops are built-in places where cracks will be prone to initiate from.  Corners already are prone to initiate cracks, which is yet another reason to wrap your welds -around- the corners to get the starts and stops AWAY from the corners.Add in that MIG is very prone to cold starts (looks OK but didn't fuse in to the parent material, cold-lap aka lack of fusion aka lack of penetration).pssst, one way to avoid the MIG cold-start-problem is to go maybe 1/2 inch or 1 inch past where the previous bead stopped, start your new/continued bead there and rapidly run the bead BACK to the old stop point and keep going back a little bit more.  Not just zip the arc back, but make a good but quick bead (hot and fast).  Then you keep the arc going and change direction to the direction you originally wanted to go and go back over the now heated metal and burn in a nice bead.Again, neat project.  But structural stuff needs to be DoneRight.  And the frame of a vehicle is for SURE something structural.  And just boxing a frame doesn't neccesarily make it stronger.  Done right, a boxed section can be stronger and stiffer.  Done wrong, and you can actually make it weaker by setting up all sorts of stress risers and crack initiation sites that can cause the section to rip itself apart under load.Add in the narrowed rear frame section with just some fillet welds going to the added cross member.  That is looking like a VERY high-stress area that just -screams- to me Beef-It-Up.  Top and bottom flange gussets, section web doublers, more gussets or bracing from frame to cross member, all of the above, etc, etc, etc.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRise+2 about the concerns about the design and the quality of the welding.Structural welding, which includes structures of vehicles such as cars or trucks or trailers, needs to be DoneRight.  The cosmetic stuff like the sheet metal can be a little more forgiving in that it usually isn't structural but it is also difficult in that thin sheet metal tends to warp and pull all over the place.All those starts and stops are built-in places where cracks will be prone to initiate from.  Corners already are prone to initiate cracks, which is yet another reason to wrap your welds -around- the corners to get the starts and stops AWAY from the corners.Add in that MIG is very prone to cold starts (looks OK but didn't fuse in to the parent material, cold-lap aka lack of fusion aka lack of penetration).pssst, one way to avoid the MIG cold-start-problem is to go maybe 1/2 inch or 1 inch past where the previous bead stopped, start your new/continued bead there and rapidly run the bead BACK to the old stop point and keep going back a little bit more.  Not just zip the arc back, but make a good but quick bead (hot and fast).  Then you keep the arc going and change direction to the direction you originally wanted to go and go back over the now heated metal and burn in a nice bead.Again, neat project.  But structural stuff needs to be DoneRight.  And the frame of a vehicle is for SURE something structural.  And just boxing a frame doesn't neccesarily make it stronger.  Done right, a boxed section can be stronger and stiffer.  Done wrong, and you can actually make it weaker by setting up all sorts of stress risers and crack initiation sites that can cause the section to rip itself apart under load.Add in the narrowed rear frame section with just some fillet welds going to the added cross member.  That is looking like a VERY high-stress area that just -screams- to me Beef-It-Up.  Top and bottom flange gussets, section web doublers, more gussets or bracing from frame to cross member, all of the above, etc, etc, etc.