I REALLY want to learn TIG

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I am not in a position right now to buy a TIG machine. However, I have a Hobart Champion 10,000 engine drive machine that can also do scratch start TIG. I know it can't do aluminum since it is DC only.My question is, should I try to get the stuff to TIG weld steel with my 10K and learn to TIG steel only and then at a later time try to get a machine that can do AC as well or should I just wait until the AC machine is something I can afford?Is there a lot of difference between TIG welding steel and aluminum? I will read all the threads I can find where people ask, "Which TIG should I buy." I will hopefully get a good idea what to look for but I am not familiar with all the bells and whistles with frequency start, coolers and all the differences in options. I feel kinda stupid on this topic and have a lot to learn.Advise on what to do would be appreciated.
Reply:I bought my tig rig for just over $125.00.I have a lincoln 225 g7 and that what I did was bought the rig to practice tig welding.I don"t think there is much differance between steel and aluminum....but the way I  see it is a bead is a bead is a bead.that would be a good start and get the tecnique down.I don"t know anything about the machine you have is that DC only no AC at all?????Cuz if it did have AC all you would have to do is get the high frequency box and a ampitrol and good to go.You can do S.S. with the DC set up too though.hope you have as much fun as I do with mine.If it's too . get an office jobLincoln wp225g7 Lincoln 250 idealarcFrankenstein O/A set-up Weld-tech  tig set-upLincoln sp 175 plus profax  arc gouger
Reply:bob, I learned how to tig weld with a dc only setup that I had to scratch start.  Getting the techniques down is important and will make it easier and less frustrating when you get an AC setup.  good luck with whatever you decide.2 Trailblazer 302's2 HF251-D1'sDynasty 200DXLincoln Powermig 140CHypertherm Powermax 30Airco Torches out the a$$
Reply:ddog is right, whether its steel or aluminum, you get good experience looking at a weld puddle. Bill
Reply:don't forget you can tig on DC aswell, but the average welding book won't say anything about this.Hillbilly Fabworks
Reply:Depending on the torch setup you buy for the engine drive you might just be able to swap it over to a tig machine later so why not?Steel and aluminum are different to weld on, but the same basic movements apply so getting good at one will help with the other.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:If you really want to learn TIG and do it well you need to get a machine dedicated to TIG.It needs a foot control and water cooling.The reason the water cooling is needed is that after about one inch of weld the torch will get really hot to hold. Also the tip of the tungsten gets degraded very quickly from the heat. Air cooled torches are larger and slightly more clumsy for detailed work.So water cooled torches work longer and are less noisy. The air cooled torch is always making a hissing noise from the cooling /sheilding gases. The air cooled torch uses up a lot of expensive sheilding gas compared to a water cooled torch. With a deicated TIG machine like the Lincoln or Miller syncrowave you can get control of post flow gas time and many other things. Sure you can get a cheap scratch start tig but as soon as you get going on it you will immediately staqrt to see that you need a real TIG machine.Hold out for a industrial grade TIG machine like the ones I mentioned.Welding aluminum is very different and i would focus first on steel and stainless then start working on learning all the set up and other varibles for welding aluminum.There is no cheap way.I get TIG jobs all the time that were botched by beginners who have good intentions but just did not have the right equipment to do the job right.Try to get a used Miller syncrowave 250 or a Lincoln syncrowave 250. The are more Millers available. I won't get into the reason for that right now but check craigslist. Manufacturing is at an all time low in the USA now and it is a good time to get one of these used machines before the Chinese buy them all up.AWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomIf you really want to learn TIG and do it well you need to get a machine dedicated to TIG.It needs a foot control and water cooling.The reason the water cooling is needed is that after about one inch of weld the torch will get really hot to hold. Also the tip of the tungsten gets degraded very quickly from the heat. Air cooled torches are larger and slightly more clumsy for detailed work.So water cooled torches work longer and are less noisy. The air cooled torch is always making a hissing noise from the cooling /sheilding gases. The air cooled torch uses up a lot of expensive sheilding gas compared to a water cooled torch. With a deicated TIG machine like the Lincoln or Miller syncrowave you can get control of post flow gas time and many other things. Sure you can get a cheap scratch start tig but as soon as you get going on it you will immediately staqrt to see that you need a real TIG machine.Hold out for a industrial grade TIG machine like the ones I mentioned.Welding aluminum is very different and i would focus first on steel and stainless then start working on learning all the set up and other varibles for welding aluminum.There is no cheap way.I get TIG jobs all the time that were botched by beginners who have good intentions but just did not have the right equipment to do the job right.Try to get a used Miller syncrowave 250 or a Lincoln syncrowave 250. The are more Millers available. I won't get into the reason for that right now but check craigslist. Manufacturing is at an all time low in the USA now and it is a good time to get one of these used machines before the Chinese buy them all up.
Reply:Originally Posted by delweldsI don't understand... I have to make x-ray quality welds all day with an air cooled torch that is hooked up to non TIG dedicated machine...  Must be real hard to control post flow without that fancy little option on the dedicated machine too huh???  And guess what, they don't let me sit down all nice and comfy and pretend like I'm driving a car all day with a fancy foot pedal to control heat.  If I need to do that I just have to control my travel speed.  Sometimes it's kinda hard to get back to the machine to make adjustments to amperage so you just have to deal with it.  One more thing I use what you called a "hillbilly" technique!!! And I pass and get all my welds signed off!  So I think for someone wanting to learn, just getting the TIG rig and bottle of gas and using a regular old CC power supply would be a perfectly good solution.  In the RIGHT HANDS a fancy $5000 machine isn't a necessity.  IMO those a for spoiled little brats!Stepping off my soapbox now...
Reply:yes a dedicated machine is nice but just to get the principles down a tig rig on the engine drive will work.they have torches with the controls on the torch also so a foot control is not entirely nessesary.I weld stainless and carbon with mine and works great.one of these days when I can afford a good hifreq box I wll be doing aluminum also......but my machine is ac,dc- and dc+ that makes a little differance.but good luck with whichever you decide Bob..If it's too . get an office jobLincoln wp225g7 Lincoln 250 idealarcFrankenstein O/A set-up Weld-tech  tig set-upLincoln sp 175 plus profax  arc gouger
Reply:If your air cooled torch gets hot after an inch of weld your doing something wrong.No reason to go out and drop coin on  an expensive machine you dont need.  If anything learning on an aircooled, scratch start, manually controlled gas torch will make you a better welder.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88If your air cooled torch gets hot after an inch of weld your doing something wrong.No reason to go out and drop coin on  an expensive machine you dont need.  If anything learning on an aircooled, scratch start, manually controlled gas torch will make you a better welder.
Reply:Originally Posted by BNFdon't forget you can tig on DC aswell, but the average welding book won't say anything about this.
Reply:I have found One full stick of filler and the air cooled torch gets too hot to hang on to.  Go for a tig torch and gas.  That is about all you need.  I can tig with out a foot pedal.  When you do get one you will realize how nice it is.  The only problem I have seen is ending the weld.  I have to pull the torch away instead of holding the gas over the end of the weld and backing off on the power.  It still works.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:yeah you can use your machine to tig aluminum but you have to use DCEP. Not DCEN like you would with stainless or steel. its different but it works. have to have lower amperage than normal. i use DCEP on my lincoln invertec which is DC only. I got myself some 5/32 tungsten for it. i only use about 60-70 amps. much higher will melt that tungsten and make it impossible to do it.only thing worse than an ugly woman is an ugly weld
Reply:What tungston would you use????green????for aluminum DC that isIf it's too . get an office jobLincoln wp225g7 Lincoln 250 idealarcFrankenstein O/A set-up Weld-tech  tig set-upLincoln sp 175 plus profax  arc gouger
Reply:Originally Posted by David RThe only problem I have seen is ending the weld.  I have to pull the torch away instead of holding the gas over the end of the weld and backing off on the power.  It still works.David
Reply:I say go for it. If nothing else it will get you started.  I disagree about it getting hot after one inch of weld. Like David r said. About one full rod and its time to cool.  I dont see how you figure it uses more gasses when you set the regulator to the same thing  water cooled or air cooled.I have only tried aluminum once and that was when I went to the nhra race last February. For the most part you just have to learn to move faster.Millermatic 211weldpack 3200 squirtgunsquare wave 200victory journeyman kitHypertherm 30xptoo much other crap to listtinkerer extraordinaire
Reply:Originally Posted by kmaysob About one full rod and its time to cool.  I dont see how you figure it uses more gasses when you set the regulator to the same thing  water cooled or air cooled.
Reply:I put a barter ad up on Craigslist looking for a TIG that I can trade for. I got a reply from a guy that had a picture of a CST-250. That is all, just a picture. I replied and asked about the machine. Was everything there and ready to weld and he replied it was ready to go. I replied and asked about the tank and does that go with it.He replied; "What tank?"Here is the Miller info on ithttp://xedf.com/itw/products/stick/cst-250/index.htmAppears to be a pretty pricey machine, $1900 new from Miller.It does not say DC only but says for welding pipe or plate. Nothing about Aluminum. It looks really dirty but no not beat up in the photo.Depending on what he wants in trade I may get it but then I have to buy the torch, tank, pedal and everything else (not sure what everything else would be), with the exception of the tank, anyone know what the rest of the stuff would cost? Maybe I should hold out for a complete setup or offer him a really low trade and see what he says. I know I will eventually want to weld aluminum, brass and anything else I can get my hands on so holding out may be the way to go.What do you guys think?Also, one more thing. Since I know squat about these machines, is it possible for it to work as a stick and not as a TIG? Does the same output points work for stick and TIG? I would hate to test it as stick and get it home, buy the "Everything else" stuff and find out the TIG part does not work.
Reply:To run a bare bones tig setup then yes, if it can stick and you have the right torch then you can tig with it.  But, that says nothing about high freq, gas flow controls or other tig settings a more high dollar machine might have.Only way to test that stuff is to hook up a pedal and everything else to it.I dont know if you can use a foot pedal with stick or not, if you depress the pedal before you strike the arc and have atleast enough amps to burn the rod I wonder if it would work?Have we all gone mad?
Reply:looks like that machine ic dc only bob. if it doesnt have HF to even start id automatically assume dc only. youre gonna want some sor of way to control your amperage when welding aluminum with tig. the longer you weld on something the more that heat slides to the other end of the weldment which is going to require you to weld with less amperage. thats why so many people let off the pedal or hand amptrol before terminating the arc.only thing worse than an ugly woman is an ugly weld
Reply:The machine is DC only , it sure will stick weld.  Looks like a nice tig.  Touch start is fine with me.  It DOES have a place to plug a remote into.50% duty cycle at 200 amps. You will never get close to that with an air cooled torch.Almost ANY DC welder will tig.You folks do what you want, I set the regulator around 15 cfh for air cooled or water cooled torch.  25 cfh if I am doing aluminum.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by David RAlmost ANY DC welder will tig.David
Reply:Originally Posted by ddogWhat tungston would you use????green????for aluminum DC that isI wrote to Hobart, the maker of the Champion 10K engine drive that I have and asked them about TIG with my welder. Here is a Quote from a guy named Keith. "The Champion 10000 is not the best choice for TIG." "Just acquire a TIG torch with a gas valve built into the handle and you are ready to go. If you want to add a high frequency box to eliminate the scratch start, that is not possible with the Champ10K. The Champion does not have remote current capabilities either, only panel control for current control."Disappointing to hear that this is as limited as it is since they advertise it as a feature. They did not lie, just did not clarify the limitations.If I am lucky I will stumble upon a decent deal on a dedicated machine. I do not want to buy a torch that I will not use on a different machine. Don't have the cash for that.
Reply:I think your basic choices for the torch will be air cooled vs water cooled, and deciding on the max amperage rating.  Unless you decide to switch from air cooled to liquid later, I don't see why you've wasted any money on the torch itself.  Most require some sort of adaption to fit the machine anyhow.  I started out with a pretty low tech setup, an ac/dc welder, no remote amperage control, and a separate HF starter unit.  When I was finished with using the HF starter unit and moved on, I had no problem selling it for what I paid for it used.  Some equipment, like used AC/DC stick units and HF units seem to really hold their value.  Probably also true of single phase tig units that only depreciate so far.A torch with a gas valve on the handle is handy, but probably not a feature used later if you buy a dedicated tig machine with gas control and timers.  No big deal, you just leave the valve open then.If you may work in a cold climate, buy a torch with rubber hoses.  I curse that cheap vinyl hose on my CK air cooled torch.  During cold weather it fights with you, pulling all the time and inflexible.  I'm now using a liquid cooled torch and it has rubber hoses (also available on air cooled torches) and its a pleasure to reposition and move freely without tension from the stiff hose pulling back on you.You can certainly weld mild steel and stainless just fine without a remote amperage control.  Its probably in fact simpler to learn on.  You find your amperage setting, and leave it there.  I can't comment on scratch start vs HF start, as I've never tried scratch.I'm teaching myself to weld aluminum, and its going pretty well now.  I do find the pedal control handy, more so than with steel, as its nice to be able to pour the coals to it initially and get a puddle formed and bead running, then back off.  Also seems to be necessary for me, when I get to the edge to be able to back off on the heat.There are great deals available on older heavy transformed based ac/dc tig machines.  I'd highly recommend a Miller Syncrowave, as that's what I'm using now.  Its not portable, but it won't leave you wanting for more features.  There's exceptions, but pretty much you use DC electrode negative for steels and AC with high frequency for aluminum (on the older, non inverter machines).After you get your setup, someone will tell you what tungsten to use.  I'm using lanthanated for both steel and aluminum, and its works great.  There's other combo's too that work.  Seems the old advice of only pure tungsten for AC only applies to the really old sine wave machines.  The blend rods can hold more amperage and a point.Why can't you add a high frequency box to the Champion?  Would it damage the Champion?
Reply:I would say if you want to learn then the champion sounds like it will work perfectly.  To hook up the torch it will just have a lead that you can clamp onto with the stinger, this will work with alot of newer tig machines, you just need to have a stick lead on it.  Instead of plugging the tig torch straight into it. (Dont worry, this will not effect ability to use the foot pedal if you get one.) Also you can just run the gas line that used to go straight to the regulator into the machine when you upgrade.  The gas knob will just have to be left open like mentioned.  I dont see any reason you couldnt use the same setup for both.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:I posted an ad on craigslist looking to Barter for a TIG. A guy replied with the following:I have several tig welders.I have 3 Miller 330 A/BP welders and 1 Hobart Cyber Tig.All are 300 amp.I want $1,000 each for them.They are just the power sources.A cooler,torch, and ground lead would be extra.You could probably pick up the rest on Ebay for $500.oo or so.I probably have a foot pedal that I would let go with the welder.**************************************************  *******************I hinted in the ad that I had a couple guns that I could trade. He replied a second time asking what pistol I had.  I have a Ruger P90 .45 that is almost new. I got it in trade for a lawnmower I had that I got for free so I have no investment in the pistol.Is this a possible good trade? I will not have the cash to get the additional items needed to be able to weld for quite some time because $500 is more than I can spend on anything right now. But I do not want to miss a good deal if it is one.What do you guys think? I am currently searching to see if these are 3 phase machines or not but want to get this on the forum and get help right away.
Reply:Sounds kinda strange to me. A 330 A/BP is a 460 amp machine. They are not worth $1000, especially with no accessories. I paid $400 for one with a stick lead, tig torch, and pedal.If you did go that way, you could be welding for alot less than $500, though.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:I asked about the voltage and phasing.He replied; "They are all single phase.230 volt or 460 volt single phase."OK, it sounds like he is wanting too much for them, correct?I will keep looking then.I stumbled on a couple of 250cf tanks today. A guy posted two helium tanks on Craigslist and asked for offers. I offered $30 each and he called me and said OK. I am going to go pick them up tomorrow. Hopefully nobody will offer more between now and then.I called the LWS and they said I can trade them out for other gasses so I will get a backup C25 (my current tank is a 330cf that I paid $10 for) and an argon for when I get a TIG.
Reply:If you keep your eyes out you should be able to find a complete, ready to run transformer tig (with torch, cooler, pedal, regulator) for less than $1k, especially right now. Piecing together everything for a power supply will most likely cost alot more than a complete welder.I paid $1300 for my lincoln squarewave 355, complete with cooler. Save up some cash and keep a close eye on craigslist and ebay and you can find some great deals.As far as those bottles, if there is anything embossed in the ring at the top, or stamped in the tank, it will be nearly impossible to get filled and could be taken back by the supplier if you happen to try to get it filled at the company who owns the tanks. If you do find the owner of the tanks often they will give you a finders fee for returning the tank or cut you a great deal on customer owner tanks or other supplies. One other thing, the tank owner cannot take the tanks out of your vehicle to claim them back, but if you set them on the dock they will claim them imediately and send you on your way. Most helium tanks I have seen were leased bottles that were stolen and not returned.
Reply:I went to get the helium tanks today. They did have names on the rings and I called my LWS and told them what was on them and they told me not to get them. I did pick up one that someone tried to grind the name off of and gouged it out very badly. Basically trashed the entire tank trying to get the name off. I got it free and will take the plasma to it and make a forge or something out of it.It am irritated because I keep getting requests to weld aluminum and do not have a machine to do it. I would still have to learn but can't do that either until I get a machine. I will get one eventually, I don't have to have one but it would make it nice to not have to turn down work. Work is so scarce right now.
Reply:You could go to Welding Depot.com and buy a #17 torch with or with out gas valve.  http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/we...ml?id=phWCoJrL12 foot hose, and torch  $41.00.  You will need a few front end parts, an adapteer ($10 or 20 total) and tungsten.  Hook it to your present machine and start tig welding!  Steel will be the only thing you can do to start, but you will be on your way.  A torch with a hose is cheap, you already have argon.  That is ALL you need to start.  Its not a cadillac, but you could be tigging today.  Once you get the bug, you will be inspired to move up.  When you do get the machine you want, you will already have the hang of it.I sold my brother a Lincoln V250-S with a basic torch and leads for tig or stick.  He could not afford the foot pedal, so he is using scratch start.   It works for him.  He has to turn the gas on and off at the bottle, but.....  Once he buys a remote he's gonna  love it more than he does now.I find for air cooled torch with separate hose and power line holds up much better than a single line.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob WarnerHe replied; "They are all single phase.230 volt or 460 volt single phase."
Reply:David, I will check that link out. I will look for a longer hose though because I will want the engine drive to be outside and I will want to be inside or I will end up laying on the floor sleeping forever. But at least I will be learning.Thanks.
Reply:OK guys, here is the latest installment of "Don't know what to do!"I posted an ad on Craigslist that I am looking for a TIG and wanted to trade a Ruger P90 .45. A guy replied with a link to another Craigslist ad. The ad was trying to sell a TIG and a MIG together for $1000. Will separate if you only want one of them.So, Should I pursue the TIG? Here is what the ad says about the TIG:MILLER DIALARC 250 H/F STICK AND TIG ALL ACC , The photo from the ad is below.If it is worth the trade I will reply and ask to see it. If I go see it what do I look for?Opinions?EDIT: I think the pistol is worth about $400-$500 Attached Images
Reply:^^^ Another $500 machine if it has all the attatchments.
Reply:I would be making sure its got a water cooler and you have a BIG plug in your shop.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I may be better off if I just wait for one to fall into my lap.Thanks, guys.
Reply:To quote my mom, its a bitch to find a used car when you are driving around in a reatal looking for one.So yeah, keep looking, but don't buy because you HAVE to, buy the right machine when it shows up.I spent $1,000 a year ago to hook my spool gun up to the V350 for aluminum.  I have not made a nickel with it yet.  All the aluminum I get I tig.  I did use it once on a stainless job because a 2 lb spool of stainless was only $ twenty something, so a 10 lb or 30 lb for the bigger wire feeder was totally out of the question.Keep looking.  Still Less than $100 for a tig torch to use on the set up you have now may satisfy your hunger to tig and make you a few $.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I know, I know.Patience GRASSHOPPER